The hole just keeps getting deeper.
Put the shovel down Neil and snack on some butter. About 4 tbsp. worth. Add some veggies to make it healthy.
I know a lot of people who stopped cold turkey from sweets. You explain what it does to them and WAM, Epiphany!! So yes, it works for many others, not just me.
Yeah, Neil, you looked up a bunch of resources. It’s fairly common knowledge that when you want to argue a point, you know the other point of view. You have stuck to your guns without even acknowledging the other views. Have you read the books and papers saying why we shouldn’t have nearly as much sat fats as you say we do?
No, you’ve never came outright and said you were an expert in anything. Real Experts don’t do that. The guy I work for right now is one of the top experts in the world in uveal melanoma research. Does he ever say he’s an expert? Fuck no, he lets others say it for him. So Neil, you are trying to be an expert and give all this sage advice. Well wake up.
It’s no wonder a lot of really smart people stopped posting on here. Predictability and lack of critical reasoning are the order of the day lately.
Vain - Neil posted a pic almost a week ago. Gotta stop running up buttermilk falls (Central NY Shoutout)6 days a week). He’s in pretty good shape for a dieting guy.
It’s amazing how dogmatic some of the people on here can be. "John Berardi said this… " “I have a study from pubmed that says this” and yet Neil looks a lot better than quite a few of the people going after him.
Last I checked Tim Patterson’s diet was pretty lowfat. He looked ripped to the gills. I guess since it doesn’t jive with Berardi its wrong though… please, stop being such fucktards about this. Just because Massive Eating has worked for you doesn’t mean its all that works for anyone.
Berardi is constantly learning and tweaking things - he has stated multiple times EVEN HE comes across new information that makes him rethink certain ideas or principles. I remember the thread earlier this year when Char-Dawg posted about baking soda and pH in his body and a lot of people said it wouldn’t have affected it. Now that Berardi has said pH is affected through dietary manipulations “Low Grade metabolic hyper-acidosis” is the new catch-phrase for those who would be sheep in the forums.
A lot of you refuse to even consider that maybe Neil has something that works for him. And yes, natural organic food is “cleaner” than processed sweeteners even if they are combined with hi-tech fast acting hydrolysates.
I can’t imagine 4 Tblspn of butter on anything, but 1 seems reasonable. TT has discussed the possible benefits of Ghee on more than one occasion (uhoh is she an idiot now too? Something tells me no…) Frankly, I don’t think I would do much more than vomit from a diet like Neil’s, but to say “you’re an idiot read the back issues” is just nonsense. For chrissakes think for yourselves, or at least observe the individuality of dietary needs.
This thread was about avoiding sweet cravings, Neil made a suggestion and you guys jumped all over it for some whack reasons. How about the fact that its just a really high-calorie snack?
If a 200lb guy is dieting, thats a pretty big chunk of his daily kcal’s right there.
Think about this - the only people on this board who are at all successful are those who have done things their way - usually by finding out what they work best with. Patricia is successful because she tries things and goes with what is working for her. Machine has set some huge goals and reached them by using workouts most of the people posting on this thread would be vomiting from (wheelbarrows with 320+ lbs for 25+ minutes anyone?). Goldberg works with westside and said he got leanest eating cottage cheese and flax oil. No one else is saying to do that but thats what he did and thats what worked for him. Adhering to something you read on a website is fine if it works for you but don’t go attacking other people for having their own ideas. Thats just pathetic
BY the way, i would like to clarify that it took several months before my sugar cravings went away. that doesn’t mean i was eating sugar. I have not eaten sugar since January. i can’t say i’ve never cheated (chocolate during PMS is a given, but not a whole candy bar!), but i’m saying that after several months i do not crave carbohydrates anymore. i don’t eat anything with nutrasweet or artificial sweeteners either. never have. so, i have not just given up sugar i have BEATEN sugar. try that!
Franks, you make some good points. But when Neil says something like this…
…I can’t blame anyone for attacking him. Not to mention some other threads where he was acting childish and attacking what has worked for many a people on T-mag.
I don’t take Berardi’s word as Gospel, but it would behoove me if someone were to listen to Neil over Berardi, regardless of what the look like. Berardi has just a little more education and experience.
My intention was never to attack Neil, just to make it clear that 4 tbsp. of butter is not healthy, even if it works for him. There ARE some commonalities between us despite our individual responses to certain foods.
My belief is that he has convinced himself that 4 tbsp. of butter is healthy and not detrimental to fat loss. The real question is if it’s helping him lose fat. I seriously doubt it.
In the cheezits part, I meant less than 1 g for fiber and sugar instead of greater than 1 g
And no, I don’t follow any diet advice. I know what foods work for me, what is healthy and what I shouldn’t eat. I don’t go preaching about Berardi or any others. I do know about them, so I can answer questions about them, but I don’t follow their advice.
Machine - I can appreciate that you don’t like Neil’s assertions about eating ‘cleaner’ than most of the forum. Frankly, it all depends on your definitions - if he is actually avoiding all protein powders/etc than by some definitions he is. If one means clean by Bob Paris’ standards, then no he is not. We can only wait and see what results it will bring.
The fat issue is something we are all constantly learning more about. To be honest, I still have trouble fathoming 4 tbspn of butter on some veggies myself. I usually put about 1 on a lb of green beans and I consider that to be a lot. But at least the idea is out there and its not going to kill someone to try it for a week (probably).
But everything you said in this last post contributes to further stimulation and discussion - if we are all sharing our experiences than we can all probably learn something. But I don’t see how good/useful this whole thing is if we are just attacking people for having different or new ideas. And reading through 20 posts about why we didn’t like how someone stated their ideas (even if they did imply it as fact) is a real downer. What can I say, I’m a sensitive guy… 
Very few people on this board have achieved Berardi-like results, even though many profess to adhere to his eating recommendations. I think his ideas are great and very stimulating, but from my experience I gained about 10 lbs while hypocaloric and it wasn’t muscle. Too many other factors that I needed to consider to ‘dial it in’.
To put this back on topic (god forbid!) - I have some ideas on how to kill sweet-craving. One is EFT - look that up on google. I’ve used it with great success on myself and others in auditioning situations (I attend a music school with 1700 students), and others I have talked to have found success with it in dietary issues. Veggies can be useful too, as discussed. Stevia has been a nice intermediate step between sugars and killing cravings. It’s super potent (1/3 tspn = 1/2 cup sugar or something)and completely natural. I have a can of dark cocoa powder (just cocoa - no sugar or milks anything) and I’ll mix that with stevia, 1/4 tblspn butter, plus boiling water sometimes. It’s only about 50-70 kcal total and its fairly satisfying.
Another is to just saturate myself with water - its masochistic but it works pretty well. Sometimes just thinking about how certain foods are produced makes me not crave them (ie. anything processed or junky).
-Adam
Seminole chick - That’s MUCH better. BEATEN sugar. I like the way that sounds.
Ok, lets stop picking on neil nad take a look at your comments.
Recent research, have you a reference for that, because i also have metric assload of references that show a variety of fats involved in the atheroslerotic plaque (primarily starting from oxidised LDL (in which the fatty acids are transported) caused by a variety of potential events, but usually starting with some sort of epithelial damage)
Dairy fat does contains trans-fat, its formed as a part of digestion. I have seen research in the region of 5% total fat. (basically 5% calories).
[quote]also, in order to absorb vitamins from your veggies (if that’s why you’re eating them, which i assume it is) you must have some fat with them. it helps your body to secrete bile which the intestines need to get the vitamins from the veggies. it doesn’t have to be butter, but butter does work.[/quote]some vitamins only are lipid soluble. But these vitamins are generally in fatty tissue/foods. You will also notice that a lot of veges do not have a large quantity of fat soluble vitmins in them. (because most veges aint fatty). Taking fat with a water soluble vitamin will make no difference. (this is overall the main point of not wanting people to go much below 15% fat in their diet, because low fat reduces intake of the fat soluble vitamins. Same in african countries that eat a low fat diet, most usually suffer a lot from vit A deficiency)
[quote]another nutrition note i learned in college that make some sense here…
protein digestion mostly occurs in the stomach, and certain kinds take longer to digest (several hours). so, i suspect that’s why protein keeps you feeling full longer. but fat has the affect of making you feel full even if you haven’t eaten that much food. so, they both kinda do different things. [/quote]Read some research on satiety.
and once you get low enough in BF, its not going to make much of a difference as leptin gets lower, cravings for everything goes up, no matter what you eat.
Ok PsychoMiko… lol, JK
what do you suppose vitamin A, E and K are? and where are they found? yes, some in meats and dairy etc. which are fatty, but they are found in vegetables!! if you eat a colorful vegetable, or one that is dark green/ leafy you’re supposedly getting those vitamins, plus the water soluble ones. so tell me, WHY WHY WHY on earth would anyone (especially someone trying to be in great health by getting as much vitamins at they could from their food) torture themself by eating things they may not even particularly like and then purposefully not get those vitamins from the food by not eating any fat with them? ignorance would be the only excuse. in order for the body to convert beta carotene to usable vitamin A fat must be present. the work i’m citing is referenced… if you want the link PM me.
as for the heart disease issue, i’m not touching that one with a ten foot pole. i can’t remember the link of every article i read. i don’t care how many references you have. you can’t convince me otherwise on this issue and i’m not up for debate here and now. perhaps we can start a new threat on that later. i do have links, if anyone cares, PM me.
you’re right about the dairy thing though, i won’t argue that. but have you found anything to say that those naturally formed transfats are bad? whereas those formed in nasty overproccessed vegetable oils like partially hydrogenated soy oil that’s in processed foods has been shown to be bad. it’s almost intuitive if you think about it a bit. it’s just taken almost 100 years to get something done about it. that whole labeling trans fats thing will be an eye opener to a ton of folks. i can’t wait!
Franks, your 08/02/03 02:38 PM posting on this thread was right on the money about Berardi and some of his followers.
Completely agree with Die Nadel - great post Franks.
Back tot he issue:
sugar-free Jello with sugar free cream whip. That oughta do something for ya.
OR
Mix carb-free whey protein with a mix of 1/2 riccota cheese, and 1/2 cottage cheese. Add cinnamon and a couple tbsp natural peanut butter (P.B. optional). Add SUCRALOSE to taste (artificial sweetener which tastes exactly like sugar) - you can buy it at most supermarkets under I forget the name of the brand. It tastes JUST like a good pudding - It’s awesome.
Machine,
My belief is that he has convinced himself that 4 tbsp. of butter is healthy and not detrimental to fat loss. The real question is if it’s helping him lose fat. I seriously doubt it.
I’ve gone from 250 to about 200. My weight loss didn’t accelerate until I started eating better with much more fat. If you want to deny that, fine. How much weight have you lost?
Excellent information as of late on this thread!
How many of you eat fruit regularly for fiber, vitamin, and mineral content (not to mention they taste pretty good too!)?
We went out to an orchard today and picked some fresh blackberries/peaches/yellow plums. Boy, were they tasty and especially juicy. One of the plums I was eating actually squirted a stream of juice out that landed right on the head of the person next to me.
Hilarious
When I first start cutting fat after a mass program I usually always follow a lower carb diet and I probably get more saturated fat than most. It all comes from animal sources though. None of my fat comes from dairy.
If I’m really wanting to cut I still continue to follow a lower carb approach but I lower my saturated fats, consume more fish oil and up my protein intake even more.
I know this is really basic but this has always seemed to work for me pretty well, even though I haven’t been on a fat loss program for awhile and instead have concentrated my focus on mass and power for the time being.
Franks makes many good points.
There are a lot of diets that recommend high fat – The Anabolic Diet (what tmag tamed down for t-dawg), The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders (Outdates AD), and NHE just to name a few for MASS.
It’s silly to worry about sat fat to the extreme that most do. Eating omega 3 fatty acids and lots of veggies, without eating high GI foods will protect your body from the negative effects of sat fats. Also bear in mind that you will die without them. In fact, eating a diet low in saturated fats will cause muscle wasting. So lifting weights is somewhat of a waste in that case, you are going to loose muscle no matter what you do once saturated fat intake become too low.