[quote]therajraj wrote:
Circumcision was mainly done for hygienic purposes. It’s not relevant today.[/quote]
funny how people’s views and desires aren’t relevant now.
I suppose my freedom to spend my disposable income as I see fit is “not relevant” anymore.
Blows my mind. You are totally okay with a fetus’ life being ended, but god forbid someone have the son cut, which in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases has no significant affect on the man’s life.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Circumcision was mainly done for hygienic purposes. It’s not relevant today.[/quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
funny how people’s views and desires aren’t relevant now.[/quote]
Please tell me more about your medical qualifications.
The majority of doctors say there is no justification for routine non-theraputic circumcision. So no, it serves no relevant purpose today.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I suppose my freedom to spend my disposable income as I see fit is “not relevant” anymore. [/quote]
Wait, are you comparing the right to spend your disposable income to the right to mutilate an infant’s genitalia? Setting that aside, I already said one should be allowed to have their child circumcised. Heck, I think you should also be allowed to name your child Ronald McDonald if you so wish. But that’s separate from my opinion on whether I think either of those things are stupid.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to undercut my son’s sexual pleasure.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Blows my mind. You are totally okay with a fetus’ life being ended, but god forbid someone have the son cut, which in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases has no significant affect on the man’s life.
[/quote]
Yes, I do think it’s morally justifiable to have an abortion in certain circumstances. You’d have to be an unconscionable monster to think abortion is wrong in every circumstance.
Secondly, I don’t understand your reasoning. You could do a whole host of things to an infant that would pass the “no significant effect” test .
I’m sure you could put a cigarette out on an infant’s arm and it would most likely have no significant effect on their life. Or why not scrape your name into it’s back so everyone knows it’s yours! The sky’s the limit.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I can ALMOST understand a custom of circumcision as a rite of passage into manhood, say at age 15 or thereabouts. At least the ritual wounding will have significance and a clear cut transition and paradigm shift - both of which would benefit a young man. [/quote]
As long as something fits into your opinion of what should or shouldn’t be done, we are A-Okay right?
[/quote]I AM entitled to my opinion… And my opinion is based more on reason (as well as my life experience) and makes more sence than anything I’ve seen so far from the “pro- circumcision” camp.[quote]
They do it before you leave the hospital. Have you seen child birth? Have you been around a baby that has had the procedure afterward?
[/quote]I have two children (neither are cut) and were present for both of their births as well as the birth for several of my god children - I HAVE been around children who have had the procedure done, changed their diapers and everything. They were NOT happy campers. I have also been around when a doctor fucked up a procedure and left my friend Max’s son with little more than a stub after is was all said and done. Max is Jewish by the way, so I guess in his son’s case he won’t be one of the one’s with a 30% bigger cock than average… Yaaay circumcision! [quote]
You are making a blatant appeal to emotion here.
[/quote]I’m sharing my experience and opinion, just like you [quote]
You are giving something that is only 36 hours out of womb too much cognitive credit.
[/quote]Really… If you consider two million new synapses EVERY SECOND to be too much cognitive credit, then you must be a friggin genius - I’d be happy with a fraction of that right now.
[quote]
Guess what, I know first hand, you don’t remember some massive trauma. Nor are my uncut friends any better adjusted to the world than us that are cut.
[/quote]I think what you meant to say is that you don’t CONSCIOUSLY remember[quote]
There are uncut people that are in prison and that murder and rape.
Is there any scientific evidence that proves the above isn’t another opinion passed off as fact?
[/quote]Trauma and repression is a topic that has been studied since Freud.
http://www.ifpe.org/Conference/2007_Presentations/Lewis_Presentation.pdf [quote]
To you, in your opinion, no they don’t.
[/quote] My “opinion”? You haven’t even stated a benefit other than “I did it and I’m fine and that’s how it’s always been done”. That’s not a BENEFIT.[quote]
Would you vaccinate your kids?
[/quote]At this point, absolutely not, other than the required vaccinations against polio and the rest of the shots they need to attend school. I have been blessed with an exceptional immune system (I survived viral meningitis) and I seem to have passed it along to my children. So unless there were some sort of pandemic (one that the Gubment stayed ahead of and actually HAD a vaccine for) I would not vaccinate my kids. We don’t do flu shots in my family (and we RARELY get sick). [quote]
Again, if these same people are fine with it having happened to them, and choose to have the next generation cut as well…
[/quote]As I said, I don’t give a rat’s ass about how JEWISH folks treat the tips of their children’s penises. That’s THEIR thing, I get it. But why the fuck should I subjected to the risk of THEIR procedure when I can expect NONE of the upside? [quote]
Tradition actually is a pretty good reason for quite a few things. You know, in court they call it precedence.[/quote]
For years it was tradition to break and bind the feet of young Chinese girls. It lasted for a few generations, but it stopped. Because it was AN ARCHAIC, BRUTAL, UNNECESSARY CUSTOM.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
As I said, I don’t give a rat’s ass about how JEWISH folks treat the tips of their children’s penises. That’s THEIR thing, I get it. But why the fuck should I subjected to the risk of THEIR procedure when I can expect NONE of the upside?[/quote]
I’m glad you are so altruistic to allow at least one group of people to follow their own wishes and traditions.
But tell me, who are you to tell anyone what they can or can’t do?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Circumcision was mainly done for hygienic purposes. It’s not relevant today.[/quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
funny how people’s views and desires aren’t relevant now.[/quote]
Please tell me more about your medical qualifications.
The majority of doctors say there is no justification for routine non-theraputic circumcision. So no, it serves no relevant purpose today.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I suppose my freedom to spend my disposable income as I see fit is “not relevant” anymore. [/quote]
Wait, are you comparing the right to spend your disposable income to the right to mutilate an infant’s genitalia? Setting that aside, I already said one should be allowed to have their child circumcised. Heck, I think you should also be allowed to name your child Ronald McDonald if you so wish. But that’s separate from my opinion on whether I think either of those things are stupid.
Personally, I wouldn’t want to undercut my son’s sexual pleasure.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Blows my mind. You are totally okay with a fetus’ life being ended, but god forbid someone have the son cut, which in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases has no significant affect on the man’s life.
[/quote]
Yes, I do think it’s morally justifiable to have an abortion in certain circumstances. You’d have to be an unconscionable monster to think abortion is wrong in every circumstance.
Secondly, I don’t understand your reasoning. You could do a whole host of things to an infant that would pass the “no significant effect” test .
I’m sure you could put a cigarette out on an infant’s arm and it would most likely have no significant effect on their life. Or why not scrape your name into it’s back so everyone knows it’s yours! The sky’s the limit.
[/quote]
You stated you hate the slippy slope argument to Push in the gay marriage thread and then use it?
Seriously?
You are largely ignoring the substance of my position, on purpose no less…
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You stated you hate the slippy slope argument to Push in the gay marriage thread and then use it?
Seriously?[/quote]
I wasn’t making a slippery slope argument.
I was pointing out that the no significant long term harm argument isn’t good a reason on it’s own because many things fit that category. If you’re okay with A for that reason then you should be okay with B since it also meets that qualification.
One of the reasons I’m okay with non-theraputic circumcision being legal is I do not think a slippery slope exists.
BTW, slippery slope arguments can be valid or fallacious. A valid slippery slope argument has to account for why there cannot be a middle ground and justify why A will lead to B which will eventually lead to C. It also has to explain why the end result C is bad. If it meets these requirements it’s not fallacious. You can probably do a quick google on slippery slope arguments to get a better explanation than I gave.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You are largely ignoring the substance of my position, on purpose no less…[/quote]
If I did, I didn’t mean to. I’m not sure what I’m missing.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
As I said, I don’t give a rat’s ass about how JEWISH folks treat the tips of their children’s penises. That’s THEIR thing, I get it. But why the fuck should I subjected to the risk of THEIR procedure when I can expect NONE of the upside?[/quote]
I’m glad you are so altruistic to allow at least one group of people to follow their own wishes and traditions.
[/quote]The good book specifically states (in Genesis) that the descendants of Abraham SHALL circumcise their boys after eight days or else they have broken covenant and shall have their soul cut off from his people. The good book ALSO says in Deuteronomy that a man who’s testicles are crushed or who’s penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord, so I guess my friend Max’s son is shit outta luck, but I digress. The Jewish covenant of circumcision is kinda a major part of their religion. I’m not a religious person, but I can stretch my judgement enough to make allowances for that.
BUT, how did we come from Jews being circumcised to circumcision being the standard procedure at virtually every hospital in the country? Last time I checked, Jews only account for between 2 -3% of the US population. The REST of us AIN’T descended from Abraham, so we really have no vested interest in getting the skin at the tip of our penis cut off…[quote]
But tell me, who are you to tell anyone what they can or can’t do?[/quote]
I have NO issue whatsoever with an INDIVIDUAL choosing to get himself circumcised. I DO take issue with expectant mothers drinking and smoking while they are pregnant, having kids ride around in cars without a car seat and other irresponsible actions of parents that put their kids at risk. However, when a kid grows up, I have NO problem with him smoking, drinking and not wearing a seat belt. At that point he KNOWS the risk and can make an informed decision. Same with circumcision. That little flap of foreskin belongs to YOUR SON, not YOU. When he’s old enough, he can choose to have it chopped off, but it’s not YOUR decision to make!
So tell me, who are YOU to feel entitled to chop the skin at the tip of your son’s penis off?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So tell me, who are YOU to feel entitled to chop the skin at the tip of your son’s penis off?[/quote]
Because, like millions of other people, it hasn’t ruined my life, and it didn’t ruin my fathers, or my father’s father, or his father’s father, etc.
So, I guess you can say it is a “rite of passage”. It is what we do, and will continue to do. I really don’t care what you call it. You can call it all the horrible names you want and use emotive language to describe it too, it isn’t going to change anything.
I respect your conviction and reasoning, and I would imagine your kids will carry on your tradition as well. I’m in no position to either judge or tell you what to do with your kids.
But, who am I to decide? His father. I don’t raise anyone else’s kids and no one else raises mine.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So tell me, who are YOU to feel entitled to chop the skin at the tip of your son’s penis off?[/quote]
Because, like millions of other people, it hasn’t ruined my life, and it didn’t ruin my fathers, or my father’s father, or his father’s father, etc.
So, I guess you can say it is a “rite of passage”. It is what we do, and will continue to do. I really don’t care what you call it. You can call it all the horrible names you want and use emotive language to describe it too, it isn’t going to change anything.
I respect your conviction and reasoning, and I would imagine your kids will carry on your tradition as well. I’m in no position to either judge or tell you what to do with your kids.
But, who am I to decide? His father. I don’t raise anyone else’s kids and no one else raises mine.[/quote]
Serious question. If your son had a complication would you still do it with your next?
I just do not understand what the benefits of circumcision are. The only argument I here is that if sanitation but, the penis is naturally self cleaning. For the Jewish as AC mentioned it is part of their history but, if you are not Jewish why have it done? The foreskin is not an ear lobe, nipple, or baby toe it is protecting a sensitive and important part of the male body.
On a less serious note, sex feels better for the uncut. How could you take that away from your son?
NSFW
As far as circumcision goes, this is more up my alley, done as an adult as a rite of passage, and then at least you get a “more optimal” amount of foreskin removed, not too much, not too little.
Go to 14:30 for the action
http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-sex/imbalu-circumcision-party-2-of-2
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So tell me, who are YOU to feel entitled to chop the skin at the tip of your son’s penis off?[/quote]
Because, like millions of other people, it hasn’t ruined my life, and it didn’t ruin my fathers, or my father’s father, or his father’s father, etc.
So, I guess you can say it is a “rite of passage”. It is what we do, and will continue to do. I really don’t care what you call it. You can call it all the horrible names you want and use emotive language to describe it too, it isn’t going to change anything.
I respect your conviction and reasoning, and I would imagine your kids will carry on your tradition as well. I’m in no position to either judge or tell you what to do with your kids.
But, who am I to decide? His father. I don’t raise anyone else’s kids and no one else raises mine.[/quote]
Not trying to raise your kids, Beans - our politics are aligned 95% of the time. Circumcision just doesn’t happen to be one of them. I happened to be personally exposed to one of the “rare” cases where a circumcision was botched. It got me thinking and I decided that I wouldn’t expose MY son’s to that risk. I am fully aware that it’s an ingrained tradition and that millions of non-Jewish boys are circumcised every year probably for the same reason you decided to.
Two or three times a year we have the circumcision conversation and it offers a refreshing distraction from the usual banter. I’m sure you’re a good dad to your son and it was not my intention to imply otherwise.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Not trying to raise your kids, Beans - our politics are aligned 95% of the time. Circumcision just doesn’t happen to be one of them. I happened to be personally exposed to one of the “rare” cases where a circumcision was botched. It got me thinking and I decided that I wouldn’t expose MY son’s to that risk. I am fully aware that it’s an ingrained tradition and that millions of non-Jewish boys are circumcised every year probably for the same reason you decided to.
Two or three times a year we have the circumcision conversation and it offers a refreshing distraction from the usual banter. I’m sure you’re a good dad to your son and it was not my intention to imply otherwise.[/quote]
Yeah man. I am beyond excited I was able to be an adult this time around and have a respectful conversation about it.
I understand where you are coming from I do. I just get a little uptight when people (the government, etc) try and tell me what to do.
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
Serious question. If your son had a complication would you still do it with your next?
[/quote]
He didn’t, so it is impossible to answer that question with any type of certainty.
So i don’t know. I would assume it would affect my view point, but I don’t know. I can only speculate.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]maverick88 wrote:
Serious question. If your son had a complication would you still do it with your next?
[/quote]
He didn’t, so it is impossible to answer that question with any type of certainty.
So i don’t know. I would assume it would affect my view point, but I don’t know. I can only speculate.[/quote]
Okay.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Because, like millions of other people, it hasn’t ruined my life, and it didn’t ruin my fathers, or my father’s father, or his father’s father, etc.
So, I guess you can say it is a “rite of passage”. It is what we do, and will continue to do.
[/quote]
Question about this.
I if I remember correctly, you stated that you weren’t part of any religion but you believed in something but nothing specific. Correct?
My question for you is this: If you aren’t part of any major religion that calls for this sort of practise, why do you consider it a rite of passage?
rite = religious ceremonial act
I’m opposed to cutting people’s parts off, even small parts like foreskin, unless there is a definable medical reason for it. I’m 99% of the time in the camp of “parent’s rights” but not when it comes time to chop of bits of their kids. Spanking? Sure, some well used spanking might help a lot of kids. Grounding? Please, kids need more of that.
Chopping off part of their genitals just because? Nah, not so OK with that.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
My question for you is this: If you aren’t part of any major religion that calls for this sort of practise, why do you consider it a rite of passage?
rite = religious ceremonial act
[/quote]
Did you notice the quotation marks I put around the phrase?
I don’t get paid to give my opinion when I post, so I’m not going to spend a ton of time looking for the words to express what I mean when I can put a word or phrase that doesn’t fit perfectly in quotes to get my point across.
My view on circumcision, it should be treated the same as hunting. Don’t kill anything you don’t intend to eat.
(^=^)b
[quote]Cortes wrote:
My view on circumcision, it should be treated the same as hunting. Don’t kill anything you don’t intend to eat.
(^=^)b[/quote]
Somewhat off topic:
I swear I read somewhere that there are people that eat the placenta…
shiver Gross man, just gross
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Did you notice the quotation marks I put around the phrase?
I don’t get paid to give my opinion when I post, so I’m not going to spend a ton of time looking for the words to express what I mean when I can put a word or phrase that doesn’t fit perfectly in quotes to get my point across.[/quote]
lol alright, let me rephrase my question.
Why do you consider circumcision an important tradition to pass on to your son if you aren’t bound by any religious obligation?