Circumcision Ban

Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

A German court has ruled that parents canâ??t have their sons circumcised on religious grounds in a move which has angered Muslim and Jewish groups in the country.
The court in Cologne decided that a legal guardianâ??s authority over a child does not allow them to subject them to the procedure, which the court called minor bodily harm, reports The Financial Times Deutschland.
Neither does religious freedom, which is protected by law in Germany, give grounds for such decisions to be taken for the children, the ruling says.

The court was considering a case against a Muslim doctor, who performed circumcision on a four-year-old boy at his parentsâ?? request. Two days after the procedure bleeding started, after which the boy had to be taken to hospital.
German authorities learned about the incident and launched a criminal investigation against the doctor. The initial court trial ruled that there was no violation of the law, but the prosecutorâ??s office took the case to the Cologne district court.

The decision sets a precedent, which may affect medical practice across the country.
The possible ban on circumcision provoked outrage among Jewish and Muslim organizations in Germany, where every year thousands of boys are circumcised in their early years at the request of parents. They regard the ban as a “serious interference in the right to freedom of religion.” But none of the organizations so far has commented on the verdict, explaining they first need to study thoroughly the reasoning of the judges.
Some experts however donâ??t rule out that the right for religiously motivated circumcision will be considered by the Federal Constitutional Court.

Well, I’m “pro-parents choice” when it comes to cut v. uncut.

So I find this to be bullshit.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Well, I’m “pro-parents choice” when it comes to cut v. uncut.

So I find this to be bullshit.[/quote]

No joke.

I’ve noticed a 100% overlap of people who oppose circumcision and support abortion until the last day of pregnancy (or later, even).

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Well, I’m “pro-parents choice” when it comes to cut v. uncut.

So I find this to be bullshit.[/quote]

I agree except I think circumcisions should only be carried out by medical professionals. Wearing a funny hat doesn’t qualify you to remove foreskin.

There’s also a method used by some Jews where they actually use suction from their mouth on the baby’s genitals as part of the process. This has lead to some babies contracting herpes and dying. I would like to see this method banned worldwide.

The cultural divide is huge on this issue, and altough I believe that education is key instead of making circumcision illegal, circumcision is in virtually all cases an unnecessary procedure.

IOW, I don’t agree with the ruling as is, but I understand why.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
circumcision is in virtually all cases an unnecessary procedure.

[/quote]

Um, I believe the Jew’s would take exception to that statement.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Well, I’m “pro-parents choice” when it comes to cut v. uncut.

So I find this to be bullshit.[/quote]

I agree except I think circumcisions should only be carried out by medical professionals. Wearing a funny hat doesn’t qualify you to remove foreskin.

There’s also a method used by some Jews where they actually use suction from their mouth on the baby’s genitals as part of the process. This has lead to some babies contracting herpes and dying. I would like to see this method banned worldwide.
[/quote]

Holy crap raj I agree with you about something.

High five!

[quote]therajraj wrote:
There’s also a method used by some Jews where they actually use suction from their mouth on the baby’s genitals as part of the process. This has lead to some babies contracting herpes and dying. I would like to see this method banned worldwide.
[/quote]

Kinda wish no one, ever mentioned this to me…

How many of these type go on?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
circumcision is in virtually all cases an unnecessary procedure.

[/quote]

Um, I believe the Jew’s would take exception to that statement.

[/quote]

I care little for religious traditions, and the islamic/jewish tradition of circumcision is outdated by 1500 years.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
There’s also a method used by some Jews where they actually use suction from their mouth on the baby’s genitals as part of the process. This has lead to some babies contracting herpes and dying. I would like to see this method banned worldwide.
[/quote]

Kinda wish no one, ever mentioned this to me…

How many of these type go on?[/quote]

Some orthodox hassidic sects still practice it, but not a lot, as far as I remember.

I also don’t see this lasting too long.

My admittedly extremely uninformed almost wholly intuitive take:

  1. Except for the original prosecutors, this is NOT a case of the Germans “thinking of the children.” The actual motivations behind this are insidious and almost certainly bigoted.

  2. They have committed the political misstep of attempting to take too much too soon, and they are going to get burned by the backlash from this. Bad.

My prediction is a pretty quick reversal, as quietly as they can manage in the political hellstorm that is about to ensue.

If the above does NOT occur, then Europe is a lot further along in its decline than I had expected, and I would expect more and worse on the horizon in all sorts of ways.

The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.

Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.

We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.

Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.

We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]

The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.

However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.

The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.

Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
circumcision is in virtually all cases an unnecessary procedure.

[/quote]

Um, I believe the Jew’s would take exception to that statement.

[/quote]

I care little for religious traditions, and the islamic/jewish tradition of circumcision is outdated by 1500 years.
[/quote]

Fair enough that you feel that way, but how you feel about religious has little to do in whether others shoudl be allowed to continue them if they want to.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.

Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.

We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]

The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.

However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.

The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.

Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.
[/quote]

Don’t forget the muslims!!

Again, the same, [a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society] , can be said for women and abortion, yet you have far less of an issue with that than this.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
circumcision is in virtually all cases an unnecessary procedure.

[/quote]

Um, I believe the Jew’s would take exception to that statement.

[/quote]

I care little for religious traditions, and the islamic/jewish tradition of circumcision is outdated by 1500 years.
[/quote]

Fair enough that you feel that way, but how you feel about religious has little to do in whether others shoudl be allowed to continue them if they want to.[/quote]

Well, as I said, I don’t think the ruling is a wise one but the discussion it is fueling is a good and necessary one.

Let’s just wait and see, shall we?

I think more than a law is required for such an ingrained tradition to end. Nonbelievers cant force people not to believe, the same as believers in religion cant force nonbelievers to believe. A thousand years ago in Norway the king killed everyone not loudly proclaiming the christian faith, but that is going a bit far these days.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.

Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.

We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]

The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.

However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.

The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.

Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.
[/quote]

Germans are just jealous because our dicks are like 30% bigger than theirs on average, just like our IQs.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Again, the same, [a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society] , can be said for women and abortion, yet you have far less of an issue with that than this.
[/quote]

Indeed, lots of women are killed in the womb and anti-circumcision people don’t worry about that blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail their rights, at all.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.

Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.

We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]

The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.

However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.

The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.

Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.
[/quote]

Don’t forget the muslims!!

Again, the same, [a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society] , can be said for women and abortion, yet you have far less of an issue with that than this.
[/quote]

I wouldn’t say that, Cortes has spoken on the horrifying practices that happen in China where the kill all those baby girls in the womb because China wants boys.