Maybe this is a question best asked in another thread but, why did God even give us foreskins if he wants them removed so badly?
To throw my hat into the ring here, I don’t agree with infant circumcision. I see no point to it. It’s needless mutilation.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Higher IQs huh?
Joos must be the real master race!
[/quote]
Yeah:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_intelligence
According to Sifu, it’s because we’re circumcized. Re-wires our brains and makes us super-soldiers, to boot.
Me, I always thought it was because the dumb Jews converted to easier religions.[/quote]
In any kind of combat, aggression is a desirable quality in a fighter.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
It is only because it was done to them that they think it is normal. [/quote]
So it has nothing to do with the fact they are completely normal, rational, intelligent people who are well adjusted and have no problems with conception, pleasure or self image?
I mean, I can’t imagine all these people do it “just because”.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.
Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.
We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]
The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.
However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.
The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.
Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.
[/quote]
Germans are just jealous because our dicks are like 30% bigger than theirs on average, just like our IQs.[/quote]
Higher IQs huh?
Joos must be the real master race!
[/quote]
Ashkenazi are more intelligent, on average, yes, all others, no, and it is only about 15%-
As to their dick size… no idea.
Landesgericht Köln?
Hardly a precedent, this will not stand.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
That is how evolution works. If a trait increases survival of the species it is passed on. If less men were circumcised we would have less need for in vitro fertilization. [/quote]
Lol. I think it has to do with putting a chemical in a woman’s body that messes her up.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.
[/quote]
Am I the only one who sees the irony and outright hypocrisy of what Dieter Graumann is saying? What about the self determination of the defenseless children who are being subjected to ritual genital mutilation to satisfy the religious beliefs of the adults who are supposed to be caring for them?
[/quote]
And why oh why do we think in the west that female circumcision is a barbaric practice but think nothing of male circumcision?
[/quote]
Ah…because female circumcision:
A) Is kind of equivalent to having your whole dick removed as it’s a clitoridectomy.
and
B) Is very often carried out on young women/girls against their will using razor blades/glass etc.
And for this reason is nothing like having a small piece of skin removed from the end of the penis of a baby. How’d I do?[/quote]
Epic fail!
A.) It causes desensitization of the glans by severing nerves and for that reason is similar to a clitorodectomy.
B.) It is carried out against the wishes of the boys it is perpetrated against.
So for those reasons it is no different. [/quote]
Okay, whatever…yawn.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]ephrem wrote:
The president of Germany’s Central Council of Jews, Dieter Graumann, called it “an unprecedented and dramatic intervention in the right of religious communities to self-determination”.
Ironically what women’s rights are concerned with regards to self-determination such a dramatic intervention is just perfectly fine.
We will see Cortes, perhaps this ruling, and subsequent discussion about outdated religious practices, will usher-in a new era of religion-free existence.[/quote]
The discussion you refer to, regarding circumcision, at least, is a valid one.
However, the real motivations behind this act have, I think, really very little to do with human rights at all. In fact, I’d be willing to be that it is just the opposite, a blatant, bigoted attempt to curtail the rights, and therefore the power, over a certain portion of society.
The Jews are VERY aware of this, I’d bet.
Sure would like to hear Jewbacca’s take on this right now.
[/quote]
Germans are just jealous because our dicks are like 30% bigger than theirs on average, just like our IQs.[/quote]
Higher IQs huh?
Joos must be the real master race!
[/quote]
Ashkenazi are more intelligent, on average, yes, all others, no, and it is only about 15%-
As to their dick size… no idea. [/quote]
If we’re talking about comparing Jews to Germans specifically, the difference is only about 9%
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
It is only because it was done to them that they think it is normal. [/quote]
So it has nothing to do with the fact they are completely normal, rational, intelligent people who are well adjusted and have no problems with conception, pleasure or self image?
I mean, I can’t imagine all these people do it “just because”.[/quote]
Now you are being willfully ignorant. I can thank of many examples of barbarity that people used to think was perfectly acceptable and normal. For example, in the southern states lynching some random black man was considered such a good, quality, family entertainment, that people would bring their kids to watch. Not only did they see nothing wrong with what was in fact a brutal, ghastly, murder, the men who committed these crimes were considered upstanding, respectable, members of the community. People went along with it “just because” no one said this barbaric, this is wrong.
My next point would be that not everyone who has been circumcised is happy with what was done to them. That is why reconstruction surgery is becoming increasingly popular. What we don’t see is a trend of adults who are uncut going the the other way.
If people who have it don’t want it or want it undone and people who don’t have it don’t want it either, that should tell you it’s not popular with normal people.
I will agree circumcision serves no purpose in today’s society other than tradition.
Doing something only for the sake of tradition is never a good reason.
Then again Jonah Falcon is a Jew- Ron Jeremy too.
The mind boggles.
Not to undercut the above back and forth, but any constitution that accespts the right to bodily integrity will almost always prima facie favour it over the rights of religious worship. Also, before anyone goes too far, this is likely being appealed to the ECJ who will deliver a deliberation on it. Till then it’s the German Supreme Court choosing one right over another.
P.S: Bodily integrity generally stands on surer footing than worship in any textual battle anyway.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I will agree circumcision serves no purpose in today’s society other than tradition.
Doing something only for the sake of tradition is never a good reason. [/quote]
X 2
There is NO reason at all to risk a baby with an unnecessary procedure. The fact that it is normal and accepted is NOT a good reason. It is “politically correct” genital mutilation, plain and simple.
I can ALMOST understand a custom of circumcision as a rite of passage into manhood, say at age 15 or thereabouts. At least the ritual wounding will have significance and a clear cut transition and paradigm shift - both of which would benefit a young man. But as a baby? What purpose does it serve? You are born and your mom and dad are loving you, nurturing you and meeting your every need and you are feeling loved, and then all of sudden they hand you to a stranger dressed in white with a mask who cuts part of the most sensitive part of your body off…
It doesn’t exactly incline an infant, who’s mind is like a SPONGE, to believe that the world is a friendly place or that people you love can be trusted.
As for the argument that PLENTY of men have been circumcised and they seem to be just fine, I would submit that the human animal is WIRED to SURVIVE trauma and to forget it or block it out. That does not, in any way shape or form, make one “fine”. Our wounds control us subconciously, and adding a painful wound at such a young age is needlessly cruel at best and at worst could contribute to some pretty serious issues down the line - NOT counting the small percentage of botched circumcisions resulting in penis amputation and sexual reassignment.
The “benefits” simply do not justify the risk! If you’re Jewish, then do what you’ve got to do, but the majority of people on the planet who are circumcised are NOT Jewish, have NO covenant with God that has anything to do with their penis, and have had circumcision forced on them for no good reason at all.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I will agree circumcision serves no purpose in today’s society other than tradition.
Doing something only for the sake of tradition is never a good reason. [/quote]
X 2
There is NO reason at all to risk a baby with an unnecessary procedure. The fact that it is normal and accepted is NOT a good reason. It is “politically correct” genital mutilation, plain and simple.
I can ALMOST understand a custom of circumcision as a rite of passage into manhood, say at age 15 or thereabouts. At least the ritual wounding will have significance and a clear cut transition and paradigm shift - both of which would benefit a young man. But as a baby? What purpose does it serve? You are born and your mom and dad are loving you, nurturing you and meeting your every need and you are feeling loved, and then all of sudden they hand you to a stranger dressed in white with a mask who cuts part of the most sensitive part of your body off…
It doesn’t exactly incline an infant, who’s mind is like a SPONGE, to believe that the world is a friendly place or that people you love can be trusted.
As for the argument that PLENTY of men have been circumcised and they seem to be just fine, I would submit that the human animal is WIRED to SURVIVE trauma and to forget it or block it out. That does not, in any way shape or form, make one “fine”. Our wounds control us subconciously, and adding a painful wound at such a young age is needlessly cruel at best and at worst could contribute to some pretty serious issues down the line - NOT counting the small percentage of botched circumcisions resulting in penis amputation and sexual reassignment.
The “benefits” simply do not justify the risk! If you’re Jewish, then do what you’ve got to do, but the majority of people on the planet who are circumcised are NOT Jewish, have NO covenant with God that has anything to do with their penis, and have had circumcision forced on them for no good reason at all. [/quote]
X2
[quote]Sifu wrote:
that should tell you it’s not popular with normal people. [/quote]
Nice subtle personal attack… Always a great fallacy, oops I mean support of your position.
Comparisons to racial incited murder? Sweet, because the two are absolutely analogous.
Have fun big guy, having a conversation with you about this would waste everyone’s time if this is what it is going to entail.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I can ALMOST understand a custom of circumcision as a rite of passage into manhood, say at age 15 or thereabouts. At least the ritual wounding will have significance and a clear cut transition and paradigm shift - both of which would benefit a young man. [/quote]
As long as something fits into your opinion of what should or shouldn’t be done, we are A-Okay right?
They do it before you leave the hospital. Have you seen child birth? Have you been around a baby that has had the procedure afterward?
You are making a blatant appeal to emotion here.
You are giving something that is only 36 hours out of womb too much cognitive credit.
Guess what, I know first hand, you don’t remember some massive trauma. Nor are my uncut friends any better adjusted to the world than us that are cut.
There are uncut people that are in prison and that murder and rape.
Is there any scientific evidence that proves the above isn’t another opinion passed off as fact?
To you, in your opinion, no they don’t.
Would you vaccinate your kids?
Again, if these same people are fine with it having happened to them, and choose to have the next generation cut as well…
Tradition actually is a pretty good reason for quite a few things. You know, in court they call it precedence.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I will agree circumcision serves no purpose in today’s society other than tradition.
Doing something only for the sake of tradition is never a good reason. [/quote]
Really? Why do traditions do it?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I will agree circumcision serves no purpose in today’s society other than tradition.
Doing something only for the sake of tradition is never a good reason. [/quote]
Really? Why do traditions do it? [/quote]
Better question would be, what purpose does circumcision serve?
Circumcision was mainly done for hygienic purposes. It’s not relevant today.
