Chronic Fatigue Bodybuilding

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

How would one go about training a client with chronic fatigue?

From what I think I know about chronic fatigue, they lack T3, which transfers ATP. You would therefore be trying to utilize the smaller energy systems, which would use less ATP for the larger MUR in muscle?

We all understand that higher reps would need to be used for maximum muscle gain, but keeping the sets between 5-7 seconds should reduce the symptoms of chronic fatigue by reducing the chance of trigger points being created, and T3 being fully depleted by the end of the set.

A suppliment stack, on top of a high protein diet, I thought would look something like this:
Cytomel in small doses
Vitamin B sup: Power Drive
Creatine

Otherwise, keeping glucose levels high and rest periods long >3min you could build a base of strength in the client.

Once the client is sufficiently strong, where would I go from there?

The most important thing is to prevent a flare in chronic fatigue symptoms brought upon by intensive exercise… If they are hit with depression or something like that you would loose a customer. Practical problems aside, it would still be interesting to figure out how to optimize bodybuilding for person with chronic fatigue.

2

I would suggest abandoning reasoning based on T3 such as the above.

I don’t know the answer to your general question, but that line of reasoning has too many problems with it.

The best answer would be experience based, rather than deduction from factually wrong premises.

3

This will be hard. I don’t even know another person with chronic fatigue, let alone a bodybuilder with chronic fatigue. I am treading on fresh ground here. Consulting his doctor was of no avail.

4

Hopefully someone here can contribute their experience on this question – unfortunately I can’t: I haven’t known anyone with chronic fatigue that has trained.

It’s a great question: almost surely there will at least on average be differences on what sort of approaches work best, differences that may not be obvious, and while for all of us more optimal approaches are better than suboptimal ones, someone with chronic fatigue is at the front of the line for legitimately very much wanting an approach that adds no unnecessary barriers, in fact reducing their barriers to exercise as much as possible.

6

Without knowing the cause of the CFS no specific advice can be given.

I have personally dealt with CFS for some time, the cause? Some form of hypopituitarism. Thus my malaise is / was endocrine dysfunction. Experience has shown me that conditions such as CFS and ME get thrown around a little too readily.

The problems manifest themselves physically and very much mentally. These factors need to be considered when designing an exercise and dietary programme.

I personally lost huge amounts of muscle over an extended period of time - the result of declining hormone levels - gained a lot of bodyfat and suffered very distressing loss of cognitive functioning and verbal communication skills. I had essentially become a tired, emotional and inarticulate wreck.

However, I have made significantr improvements in a very short period of time. My exercise tolerance is high. During my darkest moments I made the decision to turn things around and was able to exercise hard, regularly and consistently. I made very significant gains in strength and fat loss, without treatment.

At one point I was performing CV at 4.30am 6 days per week, working 10 - 12 hours per day in a demanding job and weight training in the evening 4 - 5 days per week with a hypocaloric diet to drop bodyfat. This was also performed without any medication. Yes this was difficult physically and emotionally, however we are all more resilliant than we realise.

For me the self control and discipline kept me sane.

My point is that exercise can and is beneficial. Tolerance will be subject to the individual’s severity and mental state. Start small and exercise progression as necessary.

Trying to determine the underlying cause is an important factor.

7

Scientology audit first. Then they’ll be fine

9

I have chronic fatigue syndrome and workout. I wouldn’t call myself a bodybuilder per se, but my goals are similar. I perhaps look like a bodybuilder to some. 6’3 250 lbs at 10% bf.

The first thing about individuals with chronic fatigue is their exercise tolerance is severely compromised. I can only manage 1 to 2 workouts a week, with low volume and staying away from failure. Basically 30 minutes of weights per session, with some stretching and light cardio thrown in.

Pushing the envelope any further will result in prolonged bed rest with extreme impairments to the rest of my daily life.

Adrenal, thyroid, and testosterone therapy does not seem to help in true CFS cases. Anabolic steroids have allowed me to build more muscle but they don’t improve my recovery what so ever.

A low carb, high fat/protein and low potassium (fruits) diet seems to work best.

Common symptoms of CFS are:

Exercise intolerance (extreme)
Alcohol intolerance
Hypoglycemia
Allergies
Sore throats
Brain fog
Back pain
Depression

I will write more later, as I’m just heading to the gym here. I haven’t been in a week. :slight_smile:

10

That’s great information that will help many, I am sure.

On the same lines, to try to get a general handle:

Do you find that it is more productive to limit what we might call “neural intensity” (how hard you are driving yourself on each set) so as to allow as higher albeit still limited volume of physical work, or is it more productive to have as a first priority keeping the physical volume pretty low and only secondarily to avoid driving the nervous system very hard?

And, do you find it more productive to keep rest times short (e.g. 30 to 60 seconds), or do longer rest times (such as 2 or more minutes) work better to deal with the extra difficulties you are having to overcome?

12

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
That’s great information that will help many, I am sure.

On the same lines, to try to get a general handle:

Do you find that it is more productive to limit what we might call “neural intensity” (how hard you are driving yourself on each set) so as to allow as higher albeit still limited volume of physical work,

Or is it more productive to have as a first priority keeping the physical volume pretty low and only secondarily to avoid driving the nervous system very hard?

And, do you find it more productive to keep rest times short (e.g. 30 to 60 seconds), or do longer rest times (such as 2 or more minutes) work better to deal with the extra difficulties you are having to overcome?[/quote]

Neural intensity is definitely something I have to keep control of and I would say is primary to volume. Forced reps or anything that causes more CNS fatigue makes it much harder to recover from.

I found Doggcrap training much too “intense” even though the volume is low. That was with just doing one set to absolute positive failure and not even bothering with the two mini sets afterwards. I usually leave one or two reps in the whole and tend to feel better off.

Even with keeping my CNS work down I still have problems with volume.

Longer rests, 2-3 minutes tend to work better for me. CFS general results in greater lactic acid production, therefore not overally taxing this system works best I’ve found.

13

Are you monitoring his fatigue? Rating scales can be usefull to make the state of fatigue more “objective”, or rather comparable over the different workouts and adjust them accordingly.

With CFS, the mental aspect is of as much importance as the medical aspect.

14

No I haven’t had my glutathione levels tested, although I did go that route before hand with NAC, ALA, vitamin C/E, etc… with seemingly no effect.

CFS seems to be centered mainly around chemical sensitivity and chronic calcium/magnesium deficiency. Estrogen deficiency seems to be one of the primary causes as CFS tends to hit mostly women, especially post-menopausal. They’re more sensitive to fluctuations in estrogen than men. Estrogen treatment seems to help many women with their symptoms as well.

My CFS seemed to start after a course of Accutane. Accutane is known for leaching calcium from bones and tissues. It’s possible it may have exacerbated an already low calcium/magnesium problem.

There doesn’t seem to be any successful treatments at this point making the disease very intractable, mostly because I believe it has a number of different etiologies.

My current regimand includes:

Calcium 1000mg
Magnesium 1000mg
Copper 3mg
Vitamin D 4000IU
Vitamin K2 5mg
Vitamin C (ester C) 3 grams
Vitamin B5 10 grams for acne
Mult-vitamin/mineral (basic)
Celadrin (for back pain)
Wellbutrin XL 450mg
Lithium Carbonate 150mg
Testosterone 400mg per week
Deca 100mg per week
Aromasin 6.25mg EOD

Most supplements make me feel much worse, inparticular zinc and vitamin A. Zinc quite commonly makes CFS people worse as I’ve read on many CFS forums.

The alcohol intolerance is related to the hypoglycemia I believe. I get the same feeling from fruit, and a high carb diet as I do from alcohol. I’ve done a number of liver cleanses and taken molybdenum (aldehyde dehydrogenase cofactor) which doesn’t seem to help.

The sore throats I believe is primarly from neutropenia, which I have and is quite common in CFS. It helps fight bacteria, and when levels get low sore throats and other infections usually result. Whenever I raise my carbs I get a sore throat like clockwork.

The back pain for me at least is mainly due to my psoas and piriformis in constant spasm. My hip flexors, quads, glutes, and soleus have a very high muscle tone which is greatly exacerbated by exercise. They basically go in to tetany, which is why I think this is mainly a calcium metabolism problem.

I could go on and on, regarding the different experiments and theories I’ve tried over the last 10 years. Currently I’m trying to raise my prolactin a bit, since the dopamine agonists I’ve been taking lately seem to be making some of my symptoms worse, especially hypoglycemia and back pain.

15

Not everyone’s fatigue is of the chronic fatigue syndrome variety. Adrenal fatigue, hypothyroidism, hypogonadism, depression, etc… can cause fatigue and tiredness, but the symptoms will be different than CFS as a whole.

Some people think they have CFS if they are tired a lot. That is not usually the case.

16

If I might suggest:

Deca seems an odd thing to use when having problems with depression already.

I’m assuming you have good reason to make this choice and so am not questioning that.

My suggestion is rather trying, as you are using androgens anyway, a couple of routes that I have thought may alleviate Deca depression or tendencies to make depression more likely or worsen it if it already exists.

Only a few have tried them and they were not so much bothered by Deca anyway and while they thought the methods were good and an improvement, the situations were such that I don’t consider that conclusive at all.

The first is easy enough and surely worth trying.

A fact never before revealed until now is that pre-release MAG-10, almost identical to the first-released liquid product except for one minor ingredient, was awful for some people. I couldn’t tolerate it myself. It yielded black depression.

Of course I wasn’t too pleased with that situation. Here was a fine product in every other regard – effective, and no other adverse side effects – but an unexpected and quite intolerable, in some cases anyway, side effect appearing upon my really getting the levels happening in terms of fine results.

Obviously a solution was needed.

It turned out – if one accepts diagnosis ex juvantibus – that the cause was allopregnanolone-like activity. That being a neurosteroid that sometimes can cause depression. The cure for such depression: pregnenolone. The cure for MAG-10 black depression: pregnenolone, it turned out. So it was added.

Worked very well. So far as I know no one ever complained of depression from released versions of MAG-10, thanks to this change.

So I have wondered if perhaps Deca depression might have the same cause. As I’m not a Deca fan I never did feel like doing the experiment myself, and those that have tried it did not in any case provide what I’d consider a valid comparison experiment.

But what the heck. Try pregnenolone, 50 mg/day.

Secondly, I tend strongly to think that Winstrol counteracts Deca’s progestagenic properties, at least partially. Problem here is one can’t use it all the time due to the 17-alkylation – I would not use it more than half the time – so that is a limitation. Still, something to play with perhaps.

The pregnenolone is the more important (IMO) recommendation. The Winstrol is just an additional little note.

17

This thread has been excellent thus far.

The problem with CFS is that the medical community by and large struggle to define it within a set diagnostic criteria. With symptoms of ambiguous aetiology, objective and conclusive definition remains difficult in some cases and I find it a bit disturbing that people can become labelled with CFS witout true qualification.

As has been stated hormonal profiles are neccessity to rule of hypopituitarism, hypothyroidism, hypogonadism (be sure to monitor E2)etc.

Although my condition is down to insufficient pituitary function, not CFS, for me, I was able to tolerate volume, not intensity. I could perform a lot of work, however, I was unable to perform work at the highest intensities.

Personally, I found that supplementing with neurotransmitters anmd nootropics to be absolutely invalubale to assist neural recovery, and to function at work. Typically:

Alph GPC
DMAE
Tyrosine
Policosanol
B6
EGCG

With occasional racetam during episodes of brain fog and PPS at night (occasionally).

Experimenting with botanicals also helped. Ashwaganda appeared to help, Rhodiola not so much.

5 HTP also significantly improved mood.

Its funny, Dopas points regarding blood sugar management hold true with me also.

Increasing fibre, eliminating sugar completely (and grains) Cal Mag, D3, probiotics and enzymes became staple.

If the individual is to train then you have to be completely cognizant of any and all appropriate recovery modalities.

Physical, nutritional, neural.

18

I use pregnenolone (50mg) primarily in the summer (may-sept) to help with my seasonal allergies. I’ve found it also helps me manage my blood sugar a little better, as well as tolerating alcohol.

I’m figuring it probably helps with my allergies as it converts to progesterone then cortisol eventually. It doesn’t clear my allergies up completely but it does management them when in combination with an anti-histamine.

I don’t like to stay on it year round as I find it lowers my sex drive a bit and makes my depression slightly worse as well actually. Anything that tends to increase cortisol tends to worsen my mood. Conversely I don’t seem to do well lowering my cortisol either with phosphatidylserine, and a couple others I’ve tried. Joint pain becomes quickly noticable

I find DHEA works a little better in terms of mood but have problems with excess estrogen symptoms even on 25mg per day (carpal tunnel and bruising). AI’s don’t seem particularily effective in that regard.

I’m not a big fan of having blood shot eyes all the time so I went off it. The benefits weren’t dramatic enough to keep it in.

The Deca is there to help with joint pain.

19

I’ve tried the neurotransmitter precursors (5-HTP, tyrosine, DLPA, choline, DMAE), methylation pathways (SAMe, B12, folate, B6), adaptogens (rhodiola, ginseng, cordyseps, ashwaganda), probiotics, enzymes.

Almost all therapies tend to make me feel worse (more fatigue and lowering of blood sugar).

I’m currently trying to raise my prolactin a bit to see if that helps. The times I was able to best manage my blood sugar was when I was on Prozac and pregnenolone, which both raise prolactin.

Dopamine agonists seem to make my blood sugar worse. That’s partly why the Deca is there as well. The sexual side effects of prozac and the numbing of emotions were intolerable from Prozac.

It seems to be working somewhat although it’s still too early to tell (only a couple weeks). The testosterone is there to offset the sexual sides of the low dose Deca. I don’t think I could manage Winstrol as I think it would do a number on my joints.

My stint last year with Masteron was hard enough on them.

20

Sorry for the thread jack but damn, damn.

[quote]Dopa wrote:
Exercise intolerance (extreme)
Alcohol intolerance
Hypoglycemia
Allergies
Sore throats
Brain fog
Back pain
Depression
[/quote]

Damn, that was me in every way from 2004-2007. It wasn’t until the begining of 2008 when I made some major life changes, moving 1200 miles south, changing jobs, and started working out again, that I felt better.

I would wear out very quickly when working out, I just “ran out of gas” after 20 mins or so. I have noticed that when I hit that ran “out of gas” point but forced myself to go on my sweat would become very bitter, it would sting the eyes very badly on the verge of painful and had an acidic smell much like battery acid. I have noticed that in the last year this has gone away for the most part and only surfaces when I workout for very long stretches or “over heat”.

Drinking made my stomach turn into painful knots and usually resulted in me puking my guts out after a just 1-2 drinks. I went to a doctor about this and found out I had a bacterial ulcer, I have done several treatments for it but only the last set seems to have worked 8ish months after my life change.

My doc said my blood sugar levels were all out of wack and was having me do diabetic blood tests daily. I have kept up with the blood tests and in the last year my levels have become much more stable, before they would jump from 150’s to 60’s in a matter of hours now it is fairly flat in the 120’s range.

I have always suffered from back pain so it is hard to tell on that one.
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