We might as well resurrect the “Do you believe in God” thread:
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/do_you_belive_in_god?id=1983650&pageNo=0
I’m seeing all of the same arguments there as here. My yeomanry begins around page 21, if you want to see an example of presuppositional apologetics.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
katzenjammer wrote:
rainjack wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Its also funny to me that the people that seem to complain so much about getting religion shoved down their throats are the ones that will do anything in their power to detract from or make fun of others beliefs.
I agree. They are who I call the fearful and the weak.
x3. Invariably they’re ignorant of what they’re mocking too.
Interesting. I actually find religion interesting and read as much as I can. The problem is the more I read the more it sounds like a fairytale and the more baffled I become by people that actually base their lives and beliefs on the shit. It is quite interesting but quite puzzling at the same time.[/quote]
Well, I guess I’d compare it to sex: you can’t understand or relate to sex by reading about it in a book (although that didn’t stop me from trying as a kid heh.) How could you explain it to someone who had no EXPERIENCE of it?
Worship is a verb. It’s an active thing one participates in. It cannot be studied or understood in the abstract.
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed. These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny.
Great. Welcome to T-Nation…
please visit the web page of this group
Peace be with you.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed. These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny. [/quote]
To my knowledge, evolution has never been observed.
I do find it slightly ironic that when you get into higher level science it becomes more and more based on faith through the observation of indirect many times unmeasurable phenomenon.
christian
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed. These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny.
To my knowledge, evolution has never been observed.
I do find it slightly ironic that when you get into higher level science it becomes more and more based on faith through the observation of indirect many times unmeasurable phenomenon. [/quote]
Galapagos.
Finches.
Darwin.
Try googling these.
[quote]Christine wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed. These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny.
To my knowledge, evolution has never been observed.
I do find it slightly ironic that when you get into higher level science it becomes more and more based on faith through the observation of indirect many times unmeasurable phenomenon.
Galapagos.
Finches.
Darwin.
Try googling these.
[/quote]
LOL.
so glad they moved this thread to a forum I don’t have viewable , grrr
[quote]wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed.
These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny. [/quote]
To be technically correct, only micro-evolution is an observable phenomenon. We have never and likely will never witness any sort of macro-evolution.
Also, hypotheses are what theories start out as in science, so if you want to keep that last statement of yours you might wish to rephrase.
Finally, I think there is a place for rational philosophical argumentation to be accepted as justifiable reasoning for holding intellectual positions. Not just empirically observed science. Whether or not that belongs in the science classroom I dunno, probably not. It does deserve intellectual respect however.
And that is one reason I have a very hard time stomaching people who mock religion. They tend to be science-worshippers who end up twisting science, and completely neglect the possibility for logical philosophical thought…
…which incidentally was the original foundation of modern science (the Greeks, anyone?) and has brought about some of the greatest thinkers of history, both ancient and modern.
Also, strangely enough, philosophical argumentation may include aspects of religion and is a far far cry from “blind faith”, which I think is retarded in any case.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed.
These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny.
To be technically correct, only micro-evolution is an observable phenomenon. We have never and likely will never witness any sort of macro-evolution.
[/quote]
Because macro evolution is next to impossible the way most creationists define it?
If you see macro evolution as a lot of accumulated micro evolution you can see is all the time.
[quote]Renton wrote:
This is my church. This is where I heal my hurts.
[/quote]
God…is a DJ.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Its also funny to me that the people that seem to complain so much about getting religion shoved down their throats are the ones that will do anything in their power to detract from or make fun of others beliefs.
I agree. They are who I call the fearful and the weak.
[/quote]
Nonsense. Faith itself is a weakness. Anything you hold near and dear is.
…WoW…lots of interesting dicussions & opinions…but I just wanted to know who believes, trusts, and strives to follow Christ. I am redeemed by Christ…and I am happy to see that there are others who trusting in Him as well. God bless.
[quote]London Runner wrote:
The only religion I even remotely can relate to is Satanism. Go figure.
LR[/quote]
Ah… a republican.
J/K
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
wfifer wrote:
I don’t want to get into an epistemological debate, but you can’t know something for sure based on observation, regardless of repeatability. That’s why law is not absolute truth but rather something the community has accepted to be true.
Evolution is an observable phenomenon. We just don’t know exactly how it happens. This is why we only have a theory. And even though it has happened, we can’t know that it will continue to happen, because we’re only making predictions based on what we’ve observed.
These are holes which religion can fill with hypotheses, not theories. Which is why putting religion in a science classroom is so funny.
To my knowledge, evolution has never been observed.
I do find it slightly ironic that when you get into higher level science it becomes more and more based on faith through the observation of indirect many times unmeasurable phenomenon. [/quote]
Evolution is a process, the process of micro-evolution has been observed, because it can be observed in the span of a human lifetime.
By a similar logic, the erosion of rocks in the ocean could not be observed.
While it is true that at any given moment the erosion is insignificant to the naked eye, once one understands the mechanisms, the process is easily observable.
I couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thread, but these type of threads normally go down like this:
“I’m better than you!!!”
“No, I’m better than YOU!!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz evoluction!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz no evolution!”
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thread, but these type of threads normally go down like this:
“I’m better than you!!!”
“No, I’m better than YOU!!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz evoluction!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz no evolution!”
[/quote]
Yep. And zero philosophical progress is made.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
I couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thread, but these type of threads normally go down like this:
“I’m better than you!!!”
“No, I’m better than YOU!!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz evoluction!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz no evolution!”
Yep. And zero philosophical progress is made. [/quote]
This is true for most of the threads over here in PWI.
I was born with a Christian orientation. Perhaps some gene that made me prone to religious belief, and specifically Christian beliefs. So please, stop the hate speech. Christianphobia is a sign of insecurity in one’s own (non)religious orientation.
[quote]Christine wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
I couldn’t bring myself to read the whole thread, but these type of threads normally go down like this:
“I’m better than you!!!”
“No, I’m better than YOU!!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz evoluction!”
“No, I’m better than you cuz no evolution!”
Yep. And zero philosophical progress is made.
This is true for most of the threads over here in PWI.[/quote]
I guess the “progress” is that we all get more set in our ways.
From a Christian perspective, I think the evangelism potential of teh interwebz is nil. Consider the bait-and-switch that is this thread.