zero you keep trying to get brider to prove himself right. How about you try to prove him wrong.
And people claim christians try to shove their beliefs down others throats. I’ve always been amazed at how ZEALOUS and FANATICAL atheists and agnostics are about confronting christians. Just find it to be odd. The pot calling the kettle black or whatever.
People love their children, but when they are wrong you still punish them. God died so we could all have a way of spending eternity in Heaven instead of Hell, but some refuse to accept it. There really should just be one religion. God gave everyone his Word, but everyone wants to change it so say what they think that God really wanted to say and thats why you have the NIV and the book of mormon. It’s sad to think that most religions are just wasting their time.
Zero, why are you so angry? I can show you, though you will disagree.
1 Corinthians 1:17-19 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
You see, the Bible teaches us who believe in it to expect people like you. You are against God, Christ, and all religion if I’m understanding you. Has someone who claimed to be a believere done something to hurt you? I have NEVER seen a happy atheist and You appear to fit in that group, or are you trolling? The original post seemed a legitimate one so I responded (see above) to Lonnie and a few others. As far as answering your questions, I feel you are being dishonest to us about your motives. If you wanted to learn about people’s beliefs you would ask them specific questions, listen, not argue, and maybe expound on earlier questions. You have baited, argued without listening, and generaly shown a lot of malice toward anyone who believes in God. Are you so smart that you know how the universe was created? Of course not. Neither am I. What no Chritian here has mentioned is probably the hardest thing to explain. It is called Holy Spirit Conviction. Holy Spirit Conviction is the point in a person’s life that he/she knows without a shadow of a doubt that there is a God, that Jesus did die for our sins, and that if we don’t accept him as Lord and Saviour, we will go to Hell. When it comes it hits you so hard you will never forget it. It is so absolutely real you can’t deny it. If proof is what you want, go to church, listen to people whose lives have been changed. Find out who they give credit to. Are those things not real? Zero, if you are not open to learn, how are you not going to find out what the truth really is? Research the lives of the apostles and especially the way they died. Do you believe in what you preach so much you are willing to die for it?
I understand your perspective. I have a very difficult time accepting the hard truths in the Bible (I’m going to write this as one who accepts the Bible as the true word of God). When my human reasoning comes in to play, I sometimes want believe that the people who do not accept Jesus as their saviour have another chance at Heaven, especially those people who may not have access to gospel message. As I understand the Bible, Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to salvation and thus heaven. There are also many paradoxes in the Bible. I say paradox because the ideas are impossible for us to understand, but do not contradict each other. The most difficult example is that all those who go to Heaven are chosen by God. All those who go to Hell, deny God. God chooses those who go to Heaven, but does not chose to send anyone to Hell. I have the verses to support this claim, but it will take me a while to post them if someone wants the verses. I also know that I had to respond when the Gospel message was presented to me. God moved me and I chose to respond. I responded because I saw the sin and imperfection in my life and realized I could never work my way to perfection. I cannot understand God’s reasoning, but I can faithfully accept what is written in the Bible. I trust God’s judgement. Human judgement has always been suspect and lead to disasters. This is clearly represented in the sins of the characters in the Bible starting with Adam and Eve.
Why are there other religions? There could be a million reasons, but when man is left to his own devices, all sorts of things are created, both good and bad. I choose to trust in God who realizes that I’m imperfect and I cannot save myself, but need a saviour. Other religions focus on working your way to Heaven, but this requires perfection and that just cannot happen. You may choose to not believe in any religion, but most people at least seem to try to believe is something beyond us. Is this proof that there is a something beyond the human race. No! But it is something to think about. Why do so many people choose to believe in a higher power? I don’t know, but it is something to ponder. Please ask more specific questions if you would like to know more information.
Sighing man: I am not claiming anything while brider is. Therefore he must prove his claims for me to believe them.
Spotter of Irony: I am not fanatical. I’m sure it appears to be that way to you because of I’m becoming frustrated going around in circles trying to get to the bottom line here. I want answers – if you think I’m fanatical then you aren’t as serious about this as I am.
Christian: how can you say God gave everyone His word? How naive can you be? There are billions of people who died without hearing it! Think China – that’s just one example.
Gregbrock: why am I so angry? Its frustration. I’m constantly asking myself all these questions that most people don’t seem to care about. When I ask them, I get a condesending “you don’t understand” (not necessarily talking about this forum here).
You are oversimplifying it to say that I am against God and all religion. I wish I did believe in that and let the whole thing be put to rest in my mind. But there’s no PROOF. If you believe something without proof you can believe anything else. I am not trolling. I just want some answers… thats really all I ask.
I didn’t bait anything. Learn about people’s beliefs? I want to know WHY they have those beliefs. I have listened but what they are saying does not address my questions all the time. So I keep persisting with them. Giving arguments I think are logical.
Holy Spirit Conviction. I think this typically happens when someone has hit a low point in their lives, goes to church, they have lots of emotional music and songs. Look… it looks like some sort of psychological thing to me. Especially the way the churches try to stir people up. I could be wrong! Just noting what I’ve seen…
People’s lives being changed? Well I’ve heard many stories like that. Usually its people that have done a lot of immoral things. Living morally does make a person feel better.
There is no proof that the turn about in their lives is due to following a religious teaching instead of a genuine miracle. I wish there was.
Ok how about this… are there some testimonies on the web? I’d like to read some of them… perhaps there is more to this than what I think.
DISCLAIMER: apologies if I offend anyone with the way I talk in this thread. Believe me, when it comes to these things, I am much harder on myself in comparison. Just really want the TRUTH ya know.
Zero - first of all, to address your question about ‘millons of Chinese’ (which is the same arguement as babies and pygmies in Africa) I believe, as many Christians do, that God is just and fair. If a one month old child dies will its soul go to heaven? I believe so. I think that someone who truly is never exposed to the Word who lives a good life and understands that there is a higher power (even if they can not name it exactly) They will go to heaven. Someone who hears and rejects has sealed their fate. As for web sites with testamonies, there are tons and tons of them, do a search…I don’t know any off the top of my head, though I can research them if you’d like me to.
Jason N, Gregbrock, Sighing Man, thank you all for coming to my aid. I am going to bow out of this discussion, as I am not eloquent enough, experienced enough, nor at this time have the patience for a protracted debate on “proving God exists, proving the Gospel.” To Gregbrock – I didn’t see Zero as being angry, just wanting proof. Zero – If you can be in Portland, OR, on July 28th, at the Portland Colliseum at 9:00, you’ll hear one of the best speakers on the subject that I know. And get this, he’s not a preacher. It’s open to the public, free. I do know that the Bible really talks of two covenants with the people, that of the Old Testament (where heritage was important), and that in the New Testament (where Jesus as the way comes in). Jesus commissioned his disciples to “go to all the nations of the world to preach the good news.” He also instructed the disciples to “shake the dust from their feet” as they leave an area where they are not accepted. If there are people of this world that do not receive the Gospel (or the chance to hear it), then that is our fault (the disciples). There is also a passage that reads essentially that if you see some one doing wrong, and you don’t confront them about it, their blood is on your hands (meaning you are then responsible for their condemnation). If you do confront them, and they rebuke you, even though they are condemned, you have done your duty and are thus not responsible. That is how I have tried to live my life. With that, I now respectfully bow out.
Michelle, you obviously havent read your bible very well. Going to heaven
has nothing to do with living a good life. You cannot earn your salvation.
It’s by grace alone that you are saved. The only way to heaven is through
Jesus Christ. You need to know him.
Laura - I have read it cover to cover. How do you account for children who die young and people who truely never hear the Word? I’m sorry, I do not believe those people go to hell. God created people with free will to chose their path… when they do not get a choice I believe He deals with them differently. Or are you saying that Hell is going to be full of babies and children and people who never heard the word? God is loving and just, He would not condem those who had no choice.
I think it’s obvious…This post was put here to generate a long list of responses, just like this one. It doesn’t really matter anyway, we are all going to hell because most of us are unwilling to tie a bomb around our waste and blow up a jewish neighborhood, store, dico-tek, bus, etc. 
Michelle - Once someone knows right from wrong, then they are accountable and this is
a different age for each individual and God knows when that is. Babies and
children up to a certain age dont know right from wrong and therefore dont
have the ability to repent. They go to heaven.
As well, it doesnt matter what you think It only matters what the Bible
says. Similar to something you’ve said before about premarital sex. There
isnt any room for debate on the 10 commandments. It’s pretty cut and dry.
The bible is pretty explicit about sex before marriage. <><
Laura, you and Chris seem to be stuck on the same topic… who brought up sex? I believe we were discussing people who never heard the Word going to heaven. I believe the bible is a guide to living. I am bilingual, and I can tell you with 100% certianty that the bible you have at home on your bookshelf is not the bible penned by the Old Testament Scholars and the Apostles (though even that fact is very suspect). Translated through language after language, copied by long dead scholars, copied again by a scholar with an ‘agenda’, copied again and again and again, re-worded for NIV and KJV and Reader. I’m sorry if you think your version is the ‘true’ one, it’s not. You also have to account the ‘why’ of many passages. Such as women not speaking out in church - that had to do with culture, not ‘women can’t be leaders in the church’ Read and think and then think some more. (And BTW, I’d love to hear your basis behind your sex comment…Chris decided to disappear)
Michelle-Once someone knows right from wrong, then they are accountable and this is
a different age for each individual and God knows when that is. Babies and
children up to a certain age dont know right from wrong and therefore dont
have the ability to repent. They go to heaven.
As well, it doesnt matter what you think It only matters what the Bible
says. Similar to something you’ve said before about premarital sex. There
isnt any room for debate on the 10 commandments. It’s pretty cut and dry.
The bible is pretty explicit about sex before marriage.
“…it doesnt (sic) matter what you think It only matters what the Bible says.” Okay, Lot’s daughters had sex with him while he was drunk, because he had no sons and their mother was dead. They did it to bear him a son and pass on his bloodline to a male heir. It was never judged as wrong. So, the Bible says that incest is okay SOMETIMES. Do you agree with that? In the Song Of Solomon we see some of the most erotic poetry ever written. Would his relationship with the Shulamite woman(incidentally, an interracial one) have been “ok” by the Church’s standards? “There isnt (sic) any room for debate on the 10 commandments. It’s pretty cut and dry. The bible is pretty explicit about sex before marriage…” Oh really? The last time I checked, the only Commandment that dealt with sex was Commandment seven: “Though shalt not commit adultery.” Adultery means that one of the people has to be married to someone else. How then, does premarital sex (by definition both parties must be unmarried) break this Commandment? And let’s not forget Commandment two: “Though shalt not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” Laura, what do you think that cutesy little fish at the end of your post is? I call it a graven image. Perhaps you are the one who needs to re-read the Good Book. And this time, read it with your eyes and mind open.
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (I Corinthians 2:14) So LAURA, continue in your efforts. The responses you get are hitting home to some. So sister don’t get too discouraged. Jesus Christ never promised an easy road in this life, but ways to cope which are superior to any bar run.
Demo, incest IS wrong. Just becuase he did it doesn’t mean God had approved of it. You have to remember that he was just establishing a relationship with a barbaric people with our standards. As far as premarital sex, it is mentioned time and again to be sinful and has always been taught as such in both the jewish and christian faiths. Also, the word Adultery can and does refer to premarital sex. Sort of like brothers also refers to cousins and other extended family. Just wanted to be straight on what I thought was a misrepresentation. I will provide scriptures if that’s what you want.
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him? Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I meant to say barbaric by our standards. oops. By the way if folks are still upset by this post, just skip it.