Christianity and Islam Similarities

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Remember, Jeffrey Dahmer was saved in prison, there’s a distinct possibility he’s in heaven, American hero Pat Tillman is not.[/quote]

here is what I believe is the passage you are talking about.

A question for whoever wants to take a stab at it? Does this mean on your death bed, after a life of sin, you could just ask God for forgiveness, he’ll grant it and you can dwell in heaven,

or does it mean you actually have to spend some time on earth living like Christ?

The vinyard workers worked for their wage, they didn’t just show up and get paid.

Opinions anyone?
[/quote]

Imagine being a Christian your whole life. You go to church every sunday, donate to the parish, avoid sin as best as you can. You make sacrifices like avoiding drugs, sex, and pleasure. You die and you meet God. To your surprise, you see your friend in heaven too. Your friend was an atheist and spent all his life breaking all the commandments, skipping Sunday Worship, and living his life indulging. But on his deathbed he repented.

The vineyard is the world we work in as Children of God to spread his work. Our inheritance is heaven. However, God is so merciful even those who didn’t spend their life doing good can attain heaven even if they repent in the end. So yes, provided you repent you will be saved. God is the Landowner and we should be happy for our Brothers if they are saved and obtain their inheritance. It is related to the parable of the prodigal son. The good son got jack crap, while the bad son got a great party. Why? Because you are judged according to the cards you are dealt. If you are born and raised Christian, God will judge you harsher than if you were born pagan or atheist.

82

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
When the Bible says god commands something, is it accurate?[/quote]
About as accurate as any other work that started as a collection of stories that were passed along orally through multiple generations and the written down, translated, interpreted, translated, reinterpreted and translated, as well as having gone through several committees to determine which stories/accounts to include/keep and which ones to not include.[/quote]

What are you trying to say with this?[/quote]
I apologize if I was not clear. Despite having lived in America for about 10 years, my English is still not perfect which is kind of my point. When translating any text, a lot is lost in the process. Anybody who has become fluent in more than language will tell you that. There is not always a ‘this word in this language is that word in another’ relation. Two people who have the same experience at translating a certain language will likely come up with differing translations, maybe even drastically so. When you add to that the fact the number of times the bible has been translated and that many of the stories in the Bible started as oral traditions, which are notoriously hard to keep accurate, and the committees that were convened in the early days of Christianity that decided what to keep in the biblical canon and what not to keep, it is likely that the version of the Bible most people read today is vastly different from the early teachings of Christianity. I also highly doubt that all of the people who have translated/interpreted and printed bibles over the centuries were above deliberately changing/fabricating passages to suit their needs.[/quote]

If that’s the case, how do you differentiate between what is true and what is false and been altered?

83

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< If that’s the case, how do you differentiate between what is true and what is false and been altered?
[/quote]The evidence, even by secular standards, for the soundness of the present documents as documents is greater than that for any other ancient writing. Whether somebody believes what they say is another discussion, but the fact that they are in every way that matters accurate representations of the originals is well established.

84

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< By definition infinite punishment for a finite crime is unjust.[/quote]One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn’t “why does God send people to hell?”. The question is “why does He save ANYBODY?”. He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.

You don’t understand. It’s not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It’s who it is against. The fruit wasn’t evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. “no, not one”.
[/quote]

That’s one way of looking at it.

Another way is to ask why did he create us knowing full well most of us never make it into heaven? He has essentially created a system where most of us will suffer eternal torture. That hardly sounds righteous to me.

85

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< If that’s the case, how do you differentiate between what is true and what is false and been altered?
[/quote]The evidence, even by secular standards, for the soundness of the present documents as documents is greater than that for any other ancient writing. Whether somebody believes what they say is another discussion, but the fact that they are in every way that matters accurate representations of the originals is well established.
[/quote]

fair enough.

86

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< By definition infinite punishment for a finite crime is unjust.[/quote]One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn’t “why does God send people to hell?”. The question is “why does He save ANYBODY?”. He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.

You don’t understand. It’s not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It’s who it is against. The fruit wasn’t evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. “no, not one”.
[/quote]
You obviously have a major guilt complex Tribulus.Nobody petitions to be created or asks for existence,it gets cast upon us.
So trying to justify in this manner the original sin being passed onto all humans and the existence of hell is outrageous.

87

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< By definition infinite punishment for a finite crime is unjust.[/quote]One bite of a piece of fruit in defiance of the command of the eternal God was eternal enough to plunge every last child of Adam that would ever be born into everlasting damnation. EVERYBODY, including me, deserves to be damned. God in His unthinkable mercy has provided the payment Himself so that some would be saved. The question isn’t “why does God send people to hell?”. The question is “why does He save ANYBODY?”. He owes everybody the lake of fire, but graciously saves some from their sin having punished it already on the cross of Christ and defeated their death in His resurrection.

You don’t understand. It’s not what the action of any particular sin is that makes it eternal. It’s who it is against. The fruit wasn’t evil and it was just a bite. BUT, it was an attack on the authority of the spotlessly holy, almighty and righteous God. The entire 3rd chapter of the epistle of Paul to the Romans lays out in excruciatingly plain language that there is not one single descendant of Adam EVER that does good in the eyes of God. “no, not one”.
[/quote]

That’s one way of looking at it.

Another way is to ask why did he create us knowing full well most of us never make it into heaven? He has essentially created a system where most of us will suffer eternal torture. That hardly sounds righteous to me.[/quote]Even though I’ve done it a hundred times already, this deserves an answer. I’ll do my best to shoot for later tonight. It will answer the mood dood right below you as well. I suspect neither of you will be happy with my answer, but it WILL be the biblical answer. He IS holy holy holy my friend. Blindingly pure and righteous indeed.

88

If god wants manson in heaven, and if manson truly apologized, let him in heaven. Or an atheist, who never repented but lived a good life, let him in heaven. If heaven is about being a Christian, then God should fuck himself with a huge dildo. If heaven is about living and thinking like Christ (I don’t care how long but I’d refer you didn’t murder anyone first) or Gandi, or all those nameless souls who helped their fellow man all their life, then God has my love.

89

[quote]weby wrote:
Hey guys, i am studying similarities and differences in Christianity and Islam and i cam across this video by a guy called Dr. Zakir Naik i dont know muh about him and frankly im not too bothered lol but can Christian watching this video let me know their take on this.
Thanks

Well, this basically sums up why the world is fucked up. Christians took a message of love and proceeded to murder any pagan they met. Obviously these pagans weren’t always the most friendly. Nonetheless, the murders of heretics, the Inquisition, murders in South America, murders of Jews, murders of women, the devaluation of womens rights, the supreme authority of the pope, this is the poison which has tarnished love such that is has become hate.

Islam is just a retarded amalgamation of Bedouin tribal traditions, mixed with monotheism from Byzantine and the culture of the many nations and people they conquered, combined with a hateful spirit towards all “unbelievers”.

90

Ok Trib looking forward to it

91

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
When the Bible says god commands something, is it accurate?[/quote]
About as accurate as any other work that started as a collection of stories that were passed along orally through multiple generations and the written down, translated, interpreted, translated, reinterpreted and translated, as well as having gone through several committees to determine which stories/accounts to include/keep and which ones to not include.[/quote]

What are you trying to say with this?[/quote]
I apologize if I was not clear. Despite having lived in America for about 10 years, my English is still not perfect which is kind of my point. When translating any text, a lot is lost in the process. Anybody who has become fluent in more than language will tell you that. There is not always a ‘this word in this language is that word in another’ relation. Two people who have the same experience at translating a certain language will likely come up with differing translations, maybe even drastically so. When you add to that the fact the number of times the bible has been translated and that many of the stories in the Bible started as oral traditions, which are notoriously hard to keep accurate, and the committees that were convened in the early days of Christianity that decided what to keep in the biblical canon and what not to keep, it is likely that the version of the Bible most people read today is vastly different from the early teachings of Christianity. I also highly doubt that all of the people who have translated/interpreted and printed bibles over the centuries were above deliberately changing/fabricating passages to suit their needs.[/quote]

If that’s the case, how do you differentiate between what is true and what is false and been altered?
[/quote]
It is not really possible to do so without travelling back in time and speaking with Jesus personally. Since time travel is not currently possible (and is not likely to ever be possible but that is not really a topic for this thread), one can compare the current versions of the Bible and Christian teachings to as far back to the emergence of Christianity as is possible to do so, but the further back one goes the less reliable historical accounts, which are pretty unreliable even today, become. The current versions of the Bible could be completely accurate, completely false compared to Jesus’ teachings, or anything in between. The odds, however, are very much against the current versions of the Bible being accurate. I personally do not put much stock in any religious texts. I am a scientist and tend to only accept data that is verifiable through the use of the scientific method. That doesn’t mean I think Christians are idiots or ignorant or anything. They just use a different method (faith) of acquiring information. Most Christians and other religious people are decent enough. I only have a problem when they try to force their beliefs on others, which happens with atheists and agnostics as well. The scientific method is not perfect, either. I have known many scientists who abuse the system to advance ideas and hypotheses which should not have been. This seems to happen more often in the biological sciences and is a problem.

92

[quote]Multiple Moods wrote:<<< Ok Trib looking forward to it[/quote]Listen Fellas, you and Raj, I’m not gonna get to this tonight. I apologize. I got hung up with the guy in the other thread and I have homework for church tomorrow for a class on finances because I’m horrible with money. You’re on top of my list though. I won’t forget.

93

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< Another way is to ask why did he create us knowing full well most of us never make it into heaven? He has essentially created a system where most of us will suffer eternal torture. That hardly sounds righteous to me.[/quote]The two key words in your post Raj are “to me”. I completely understand how offensive and unjust it appears to you that God would create people knowing full well that multitudes would be eternally lost. That would be bad enough, but I’m telling you now that He didn’t merely know. He planned it that way. Why? Let me start with a few facts about the God I’m talking about first.

He is also very stuck on Himself. For good reason. He is God. The omnipotent architect and creator of all that is, excepting Himself only. He commands light and matter to exist from nothing. He upholds and maintains them every second. Space being the created nothing between created things He is on one hand nowhere because He is not subject to space. He is on the other everywhere because He fills the immensity of space.

Time being to us that mysterious succession of moments tied inextricably to the movement of the material universe in space, God is not subject to this either. He is equally present at all and every moment in the past present and future of time and eternity. An ever conscious NOW. He has never, nor can He ever learn ANYTHING. He is now and always in universal and comprehensive contemporaneous possession of all actual and possible objects of knowledge including Himself.

He is Himself the standard by which all else is measured. He is righteous because HE IS GOD. Not God because He is righteous by our standards. Everything He does in, with, to, for and upon His creation including man is for His own glory. What does that mean? It means to display His magnificence. His majesty, might, mercy, love, holiness justice and wrath.

Again. God did not decree the cross of Christ to fix the fall of Adam. He decreed the fall of Adam so there could be a cross of Christ. Yes He did. His holiness, love, grace and generous kindness could not ever have been demonstrated to their fullest had there not been sin punishable by eternal death. The trouble with sinful man is that he thinks reality belongs to him. That’s the result of Adam’s sin in which we all died. “I’LL decide what’s fair or not”. Truth is He decides… everything. I love that truth. I rest in it. I’m refreshed in it. I worship Him for it which is my greatest joy.

He loved me while I was His enemy. Dead in my sin and by nature a child of wrath. I did not choose better than anybody else. HE chose ME. The illustration I use is that it would be like if I and an accomplice raped tortured and murdered someone’s family. We get to court and find out that it was the judge’s family. He tells me that not only will I not pay for my crimes, but he will die in my place and I will inherit his house and fortune. The other guys gets the chair. I don’t dare ask the judge why.

God is not only the Judge. He’s the creator. He has the right to do with His creation “whatsover Himself pleaseth”. EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, saint and sinner alike belong to Him and do and will bring Him glory. It’s all about Him. He has chosen to recreate me in His image from the inside out. I would sooner doubt my own existence than His. I’m half asleep man. I need to go to bed.

94

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< Another way is to ask why did he create us knowing full well most of us never make it into heaven? He has essentially created a system where most of us will suffer eternal torture. That hardly sounds righteous to me.[/quote]The two key words in your post Raj are “to me”. I completely understand how offensive and unjust it appears to you that God would create people knowing full well that multitudes would be eternally lost. That would be bad enough, but I’m telling you now that He didn’t merely know. He planned it that way. Why? Let me start with a few facts about the God I’m talking about first.

He is also very stuck on Himself. For good reason. He is God. The omnipotent architect and creator of all that is, excepting Himself only. He commands light and matter to exist from nothing. He upholds and maintains them every second. Space being the created nothing between created things He is on one hand nowhere because He is not subject to space. He is on the other everywhere because He fills the immensity of space.

Time being to us that mysterious succession of moments tied inextricably to the movement of the material universe in space, God is not subject to this either. He is equally present at all and every moment in the past present and future of time and eternity. An ever conscious NOW. He has never, nor can He ever learn ANYTHING. He is now and always in universal and comprehensive contemporaneous possession of all actual and possible objects of knowledge including Himself.

He is Himself the standard by which all else is measured. He is righteous because HE IS GOD. Not God because He is righteous by our standards. Everything He does in, with, to, for and upon His creation including man is for His own glory. What does that mean? It means to display His magnificence. His majesty, might, mercy, love, holiness justice and wrath.

Again. God did not decree the cross of Christ to fix the fall of Adam. He decreed the fall of Adam so there could be a cross of Christ. Yes He did. His holiness, love, grace and generous kindness could not ever have been demonstrated to their fullest had there not been sin punishable by eternal death. The trouble with sinful man is that he thinks reality belongs to him. That’s the result of Adam’s sin in which we all died. “I’LL decide what’s fair or not”. Truth is He decides… everything. I love that truth. I rest in it. I’m refreshed in it. I worship Him for it which is my greatest joy.

He loved me while I was His enemy. Dead in my sin and by nature a child of wrath. I did not choose better than anybody else. HE chose ME. The illustration I use is that it would be like if I and an accomplice raped tortured and murdered someone’s family. We get to court and find out that it was the judge’s family. He tells me that not only will I not pay for my crimes, but he will die in my place and I will inherit his house and fortune. The other guys gets the chair. I don’t dare ask the judge why.

God is not only the Judge. He’s the creator. He has the right to do with His creation “whatsover Himself pleaseth”. EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, saint and sinner alike belong to Him and do and will bring Him glory. It’s all about Him. He has chosen to recreate me in His image from the inside out. I would sooner doubt my own existence than His. I’m half asleep man. I need to go to bed.
[/quote]

This is INSANE. All of it. I would not be surprised if people lost faith after listening to you.

95

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:<<< Another way is to ask why did he create us knowing full well most of us never make it into heaven? He has essentially created a system where most of us will suffer eternal torture. That hardly sounds righteous to me.[/quote]The two key words in your post Raj are “to me”. I completely understand how offensive and unjust it appears to you that God would create people knowing full well that multitudes would be eternally lost. That would be bad enough, but I’m telling you now that He didn’t merely know. He planned it that way. Why? Let me start with a few facts about the God I’m talking about first.

He is also very stuck on Himself. For good reason. He is God. The omnipotent architect and creator of all that is, excepting Himself only. He commands light and matter to exist from nothing. He upholds and maintains them every second. Space being the created nothing between created things He is on one hand nowhere because He is not subject to space. He is on the other everywhere because He fills the immensity of space.

Time being to us that mysterious succession of moments tied inextricably to the movement of the material universe in space, God is not subject to this either. He is equally present at all and every moment in the past present and future of time and eternity. An ever conscious NOW. He has never, nor can He ever learn ANYTHING. He is now and always in universal and comprehensive contemporaneous possession of all actual and possible objects of knowledge including Himself.

He is Himself the standard by which all else is measured. He is righteous because HE IS GOD. Not God because He is righteous by our standards. Everything He does in, with, to, for and upon His creation including man is for His own glory. What does that mean? It means to display His magnificence. His majesty, might, mercy, love, holiness justice and wrath.

Again. God did not decree the cross of Christ to fix the fall of Adam. He decreed the fall of Adam so there could be a cross of Christ. Yes He did. His holiness, love, grace and generous kindness could not ever have been demonstrated to their fullest had there not been sin punishable by eternal death. The trouble with sinful man is that he thinks reality belongs to him. That’s the result of Adam’s sin in which we all died. “I’LL decide what’s fair or not”. Truth is He decides… everything. I love that truth. I rest in it. I’m refreshed in it. I worship Him for it which is my greatest joy.

He loved me while I was His enemy. Dead in my sin and by nature a child of wrath. I did not choose better than anybody else. HE chose ME. The illustration I use is that it would be like if I and an accomplice raped tortured and murdered someone’s family. We get to court and find out that it was the judge’s family. He tells me that not only will I not pay for my crimes, but he will die in my place and I will inherit his house and fortune. The other guys gets the chair. I don’t dare ask the judge why.

God is not only the Judge. He’s the creator. He has the right to do with His creation “whatsover Himself pleaseth”. EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE, saint and sinner alike belong to Him and do and will bring Him glory. It’s all about Him. He has chosen to recreate me in His image from the inside out. I would sooner doubt my own existence than His. I’m half asleep man. I need to go to bed.
[/quote]

When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were bound by the Law. Under the Law, people could be punished with death FOR sinning. Adam and Eve chose this and after they made their decision they were banished from paradise and refused the TREE OF LIFE

"So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the TREE OF LIFE’-Genesis 3 23-24

As it is written when Jesus said ‘Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.’ -John 5: 45-46
Moses Represents the Law. Under Mosaic Law, death penalties were enforced. So by choosing the Law, judgement was exorcised by God but through the Devil. The devil isn’t very nice.

Now the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is metaphorically and literally meant to be understood as MAN CHOOSING SATAN OVER GOD. This is why the days of the OT sucked so bad and why people always were getting slaughtered. The TREE OF LIFE is to be understood as Jesus Christ. As it is written when the Savior said:

‘No one cannot serve two masters’-Matthew 6:24

This is why once we chose the Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil, we were denied the tree of life.

Now recall that when adam and eve ate from the tree of knowledge it is written

‘THEIR EYES WERE OPENED’ -Genesis 3:4-7

96

We see the parallel in the New Testament after the Resurrection when meets Cleopas he breaks the bread, The Holy Eucharist, and it is written:

When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. And THEIR EYES WERE OPENED , and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight.-Luke 24:30-32
The Holy Eucharist is Christs Body, and the Fruit from the Tree of Life, who represents Christ. This is why Catholics hold it to so much esteem.

97

Tiribulus is theologically way off.

98

[quote]maverick88 wrote:
This is INSANE. All of it. I would not be surprised if people lost faith after listening to you.
[/quote]Losing faith?

Are you sure the people you describe ever really had it?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

His whole thing is about point of view. When it comes to judging God - you don’t have one.

We are stuck in a two dimensional petri dish with no way of perceiving.

(was that right Tirib?)

99

[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< His whole thing is about point of view. When it comes to judging God - you don’t have one.

We are stuck in a two dimensional petri dish with no way of perceiving.

(was that right Tirib?)[/quote]Even being created in the image and likeness of God and even before the entrance of sin, God being God, there are some of His divine attributes that are “incommunicable”. They cannot be passed on to anyone else. Among which would be the big three. Infinite knowledge(omniscience), Being everywhere at once(omnipresence) and being all powerful(omnipotence). Those CANNOT be reproduced. God’s inability to do certain things does not in any way diminish His power. He cannot sin, He cannot lie, He cannot fail, He cannot make a rock so big that He can’t move it etc? He CANNOT reproduce Himself fully.

That being the case, even before sin, man was in no position to question or debate with his creator. He was simply not equipped, by definition, to reach into the mind of God beyond what God reveals of Himself. AFTER the fall into sin and death he was now not only unable to understand as God does, he was now also unwilling to understand what God had designed into him int he first place. Justice is what He says it is. Not what feels good to me. As soon as somebody can command one particle of matter or one photon of light into existence EX_NIHLO, from absolutely nothing. Nevermind the brain melting universe we live in. My ears might perk up when they begin to pronounce their opinions on what’s right or wrong.

So yes. We are critters in a terrarium when it comes to our vision of ultimate reality.

The 139th Psalm English Standard Version =] Psalm 139 ESV

1 O Lord, you have searched me and known me!
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
you discern my thoughts from afar.
3 You search out my path and my lying down
and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue,
behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
5 You hem me in, behind and before,
and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
it is high; I cannot attain it

100

[quote]fibroblaster wrote:<<< Tiribulus is theologically way off.[/quote]No… he is not. We seem to be at an impasse. God’s impeccable sense of irony and humor is never displayed with more splendor than in His having a church canonize a body of authoritative writings that destroy that church’s own authority. Pretty much like He did Israel. Both of course are His perfect plan. I love Catholic people friend. I mean like REALLY love them. You have no idea. It’s because I love them that I abhor that evil church. I would have to burn my bible to believe what you believe.