Chiropractors and My Quackometer

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I did mention the ‘problem’(or at least I thought I did)…[/quote]

Sorry if I missed it.

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I have had this very minor lower back twinge since doing a heavy deadlift about 2 weeks ago. But I am not sure if it was the deadlift, or perhaps my sleeping posture, or any number of things. It is not painful, and it is not debilitating, it is just a little tingling that I can feel when my back is not straight.[/quote]

Ah the old deadlift twingey tingle. :slight_smile: I know it well. :slight_smile:

[quote]
I would like to goto as many medical professionals as possible. It is fascinating to me the varying level of expertise and knowledge even amongst the very high qualified. Thanks for the recommendations.[/quote]

Welcome! And if you feel like posting about your experiences with different professionals, I’d be very curious to hear about them.

22

[quote]FreddieY wrote:
However that doesn’t mean that it has any therapeutic benefit when used in this way. If you read the material on the manufacturer’s website, you’ll notice that they emphasize how much money it can earn for the buyer of the machine in terms of winning lawsuits and convincing people to become patients. I don’t see much there about cures or rehab.[/quote]

It’s not supposed to have any therapeutic effect, and based on what the OP said, the chiro never made any such claims. It’s purely a diagnostic tool, and fortunately for the chiro, it outputs nice looking and potentially scary graphics that causes gullible people to shell out the money.

23

There are some good chiropracters and some bad ones. Because the field is not as regulated as other medical related professions there are some quacks and frauds out there that are able to stay in business because they are not doing anything illegal… slimy and underhanded, yeah, but perfectly legal.

I think the easiest way to tell the good ones from the bad is by how they want to treat you. If they want to see you a few times in a month to rehabilitate you and educate you on how to care for your spine, chances are you have a good one. If they want you to come see them every week for eternity and never discuss with you how to strengthen yourself against further injury, I’d bet you’ve found a quack.

I have a very mild case of spina bifida. Chiropractic care has helped with the symptoms of that, and I have seen several docs for it over the years. If you’ve stumbled onto a bad doc or you just don’t trust him, find another. Talking to people that have been to see them (like the friend you mentioned) is probably the best way to find good care. The best chiropracter I ever used, I got in touch with through a MMA fighter who saw the guy for injuries.

Good luck!

27

[quote]Mick28 wrote:

But for my money I’ll spend time seeking the advice of a Chiropractor, a massage therapist, a nutritionist and many other “alternative” sources than seek out the typical ego driven asshole MD.

They make me want to puke![/quote]

Amen brother.

28

I skimmed through the posts and wanted to add my thoughts. I was having multiple problems with my upper extremities. went a regular doctors office, had an MRI done on my elbow. The MRI came back clean and the doc just told me to get physical thearpy if the the pain continues. WOW that helped a ton, thanks.

Insted of pursuing the PT route I went on the ART website and found a local guy in my area. I’ve gone once a week for the past 4 weeks and combined with some at home work on a tennis ball. I am feeling close to 100% for the first time in years.

ART kicks ass.

I also took it as a good sign that the Chiro. trains and competes in triathalons, including the Hawaii Ironman every year. And his receptionist is some sort of professional distance runner.

29

Uh, PT school is 2 years, Chiropractic is 4? If you add in the minimum bachelors needed, PT school is 5-6, Chrio school is 7-8. In Canada anyway, you do have to be “nationally certified” to practice chiropractic.

Of those four years at school, a D.C. student dissects cadavers to learn indepth anatomy (among other things, of course) whereas a PT student dissects the latest rubber ball to invent some other weird execrise.

Kidding aside, it really does come down to the person in the profession. There are some great PT’s out there (for example, I could read Michael Hope’s posts on elite all day), and there are some shitty ones. Same goes for Chrio.

CaliLaw is lucky to have found a Chiro who takes the time to perform good ART on him, and some other poster was lucky to get treated by a PT who used front squats and deadlifts.

To the guy who said they need to do X-rays first, remember they are manual therapists. They should be well skilled at assessing things with their hands, especially the soft tissue structures that an X-ray can’t reveal, and that an MRI isn’t practical for.

To the OP, stick with it for a bit, feel the guy out, ask a shitload of questions , and in the end make the decision about this one guy. BTW, that machine was probably assessing heat and gave you readings on which side of the vertebrae was hyperactive and which parts dormant. Wether or not it may help them adjust/fix you, I don’t know.

[quote]HJLau75 wrote:
Well, if it can be treated by a physical therapist, I would go to one.

They are a lot more apt at helping you fix imbalances, help injuries recover, and preventing injuries.

They go at least 6 years of school for it, some 7(like my program). Then they need to get nationally certified. A lot more credentials than any chiropractor.[/quote]

30

[quote]FreddieY wrote:
However that doesn’t mean that it has any therapeutic benefit when used in this way.

Ronsauce wrote:
It’s not supposed to have any therapeutic effect…[/quote]

I explained at length in the same message that the machine is purely diagnostic, but you’re right, the sentence you quoted was poorly phrased and is misleading when read alone. What I meant was, the fact that the machine makes measurements accurately does not imply that the chiro will be able to use those measurements to make the patient better.

[quote]
Ronsauce wrote:
…and based on what the OP said, the chiro never made any such claim.[/quote]

Nor did I claim that the chiro made any such claims. :slight_smile:

31

I really don’t know anything about chiropractic. My only comment is that Franco Columbu, a chiropractor as well as of course a bodybuilder and powerlifter, wrote that any chiropractor who ordinarily requires an X-ray of every patient is, from that alone, sure to be a quack. The skilled practitioner, he said, ordinarily needed only physical examination / palpation.

Interesting and convenient diagnostic criterion if true.

It was accurate for the one time I went to a chiropractor. A quack, and insisted on X-rays. However one case hardly proves it.

Anyone else have any thoughts on Columbu’s point?

32

[quote]
Ronsauce wrote:
…and based on what the OP said, the chiro never made any such claim.

Nor did I claim that the chiro made any such claims. :slight_smile: [/quote]

Touch? sir.

33

Well, if you want to test your credulity even more, you might want to check out the work of Dr. John Sarno in regards to the back. He claims that a large percentage of back pain is psychosomatic and, according to himself, he has had great success in treating back pain without medicine or manipulation. This guy is no New Age flake with a degree from The California Metaphysical Institute, he’s Professor of Rehabilitation Medicine at NYU. I am reading his book right now. I can’t vouch for it one way or the other, but it sounds plausible. Check out this book: Amazon.com

34

So, as a footnote to this thread. I just completed a 16 hr drive. I stopping only 3 times for gas. I was sitting in the same position for a good 15 hours and… my back feels fine. Especially my lower back, doesn’t have that twingy-ness anymore.

I ought to be a chiropractor.

I don’t know if the ‘issue’ is actually gone, or if it just relieved itself, but in line with the idea that most back pain is psychosomatic, I was once told by a therapist(therapy is another medical profession that I distrust, and I once tried a few out out of curiosity, same deal as with what I am doing with this chiropractor) That often times with patients, as soon as they start treatment, they quickly ‘fix’ the problem they were having on their own, because they get scared of the commitments of being treated.

I imagine that is more of an issue with mental health, but if back pains ARE largely psychosomatic, it would apply.

35

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
I imagine that is more of an issue with mental health, but if back pains ARE largely psychosomatic, it would apply.[/quote]

Dr. Sarno believes that for many (NOT ALL) back problems, chiropractic adjustments, back surgery, etc work by the placebo effect. He gives studies, etc, to back this up. The pain is real, but often times, the spine, etc, of a patient looks no different than other people’s without back pain.

He believe that the source of back pain is often repressed rage, which leads to blood/oxygen deprivation of a certain part of the skeletal system. Obviously, my cursory explanation does not do justice to his book.

36

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
For the most part, I agree with you. The only point I feel you have wrong, is that about x-rays. Ionising radiation is harmful and should not be used unless absolutely necessary. Since x-rays will not reveal a fixation, or joint inflammation, or many of the other things that chiropractic care can help with, there is usually no point in taking x-rays anyway.[/quote]

Have you ever heard of a pars defect or spondylolisthesis? If a chiropractor trys to “adjust” you and you have one of these. You may not be able to get up off the table or be able to walk again!! X-rays are very important in determining whether there is a fracture of the vertebrae. I have never been to a chiropractor and don’t generally recommend them. However, if I ever did consider going I would never allow someone to “adjust” me until X-rays were taken. I am in the medical field and am skeptical about chiropractic medicine. As with all things though, you have some good ones and you have some bad ones. It’s your responsiblilty to make an informed decision.

37

I’ve been to both chiropractors and ART guys. The chiropractor got me back lined up, but the muscles that were tight stayed tight, pulling me right back out of place within a week.

My ART guy, on the otherhand, is a magician! Got me lined up, and losened up.

Boooo chiro’s!
Yaaay ART dude!

38

Since the OP was obviously skeptical, I’ll post a link to this site for his benefit:

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

Those of you who are believe in chiropractic will say that these guys are just a bunch of losers who couldn’t hack it as chiros. Perhaps that’s true, but many of these folks, after leaving chiropractic, went on to become real doctors. It’s a fascinating site. If you’re skeptical about chiro, you will enjoy it.

Here are some key points from the site:

Subluxations do not exist. There is no such medical condition. Period.

Spinal manipulation does provide some temporary relief from back pain. But the key point is that it’s only temporary. This type of pain-relieving spinal manipulation can be taught to a PT in about a month of training, if that.

The chiros who let you come in only when you have a problem and don’t require ongoing treatment (the ethical kind) do exist, but they are few and far between and will probably need to close their practices. This is because only about 10% of the population actually use chiros, and I’ve seen this figure as low as 7%. Unless a chiro has repeat business, he or she cannot make a living. The only chiros who can stay in business are the ones who recommend lifetime care to fix subluxations - the nonexistent lesion.

If you actually have an injury and need therapy, go to a PT. The whole marketing schtick about chiros having equal or better education than doctors is bullshit. What you need to focus on is quality, not quantity. Although the subject matter may the same as that taught in M.D. school, the courses are dumbed down for the chiros. To get into medical school you need around a 3.7 GPA, a good score on the MCAT, and you need to go through an interview. To get into most PT programs you need at least a 3.0 GPA, and some type of standardized test, usually the GRE. To get into chiro school, you only need a 2.5 GPA, no MCAT or standardized test of any kind, and according to the Web site, most schools will take you without a face-to-face interview and without a criminal background check. And once you’re in chiro school, the goal is to make sure that you pass your classes and stay in. Why? Because if the school loses a student, it loses that studen’ts tuition, and they need as many suckers as they can get to stay open.

Medicare and most private insurers are reducing, even eliminating, reimbursement for chiro treatments. The Web site predicts that in 10 years, the chiropractic field will basically disappear and any useful techniques will be taken over by PTs. Good riddance.

40

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

For the most part, I agree with you. The only point I feel you have wrong, is that about x-rays. Ionising radiation is harmful and should not be used unless absolutely necessary. Since x-rays will not reveal a fixation, or joint inflammation, or many of the other things that chiropractic care can help with, there is usually no point in taking x-rays anyway.

[/quote]

You know, I hate having XRays done because of the radiation, but they are neccsary. Especially for anyone who is going to one due to any sort of injury, and not just soreness/tightness, etc.

If someone comes in complaining of recurring headaches/neckaches after falling down, and you just adjust, bad things can happen. For instance, this is apparently indicative of some folks having a BROKEN NECK. You can kill someone adjusting them if their neck is broken.

And I understand you said unless it was absolutely neccessary. That’s where the issue arises. If I’ve had a headache on and off for two months after a fall (especially w/wrestlers, MMA, football players, boxers, etc who fall all the time) I wouldn’t probably even connect the two.

“Oh, no Xray, just adjust me…”

::snap crunch dead::

“Oops…”

I’ll take a chance on the radiation if my doctor is competent and feels it’s neccessary. They’re the doctor, Im the patient. Again, this is knowing/trusting your doctor, or at least the recommendation of that person if it’s your first time going to them.

Kubo