Chavez and Big Oil

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

so what you are saying is that the small group of wealthy people are the ones who should decide what gets developed and produced while the masses simply wait around for something to “trickle” down to them? i do not agree with this.
[/quote]

Well you decide what you buy so you are indirectly influencing producers.

So not only do capitalists not decide what is produced and if so, only in their role as consumers, but for the masses better late than never is still the preferable alternative.

Of course we could. We could rob the most productive ones and “help” the last productive ones.

What kind of capital growth, the only way out of world wide poverty, do you expect if you punish the clever use of resources and subsidize economic iliteracy?

62

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned[/quote]

Why bother with a more complex answer?

ARE YOU INSANE?

ARE YOU?

Capitalism is the reason these things do even exist and yet you complain that it also means not everbody gets the good stuff?

Without capitalism there would be nothing, nada, zilch, so what is your POINT?

63

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.

Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?

Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?

‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.

Go demand a refund on your education.

Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.

so your saying the looter is not the foreigner who comes in to exploit the natural resources but rather the native people who demand what is rightfully theirs?

sure it takes capital to develop oil. but you have to understand that there is an alternative to the model of investment the U.S. imposes on countries all over the world. the U.S. was getting the lions share of the wealth, anyone can see this is unfair.[/quote]

Since the foreigner pays the native people for access to oil as well as invests millions or billions in equipment to pump it out of the ground it is hard to consider him the looter.

The native that takes the foreigners money and then steals his equipment certainly looks like a thief.

64

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.

Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?

Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?

‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.

Go demand a refund on your education.

Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.

so your saying the looter is not the foreigner who comes in to exploit the natural resources but rather the native people who demand what is rightfully theirs?

sure it takes capital to develop oil. but you have to understand that there is an alternative to the model of investment the U.S. imposes on countries all over the world. the U.S. was getting the lions share of the wealth, anyone can see this is unfair.

The Venezuelans could have 30% of something, or 100% of nothing (since they were incompetent to develop the fields).

Its not exploitation to turn a swamp into a mountain of gold and get most of the mountain, in other words.

[/quote]

so you wouldnt be opposed to me going to your house, discovering oil then proceed to drill up your land. you would get a small percentage but i would keep most of the wealth. of course this is not logical.

venezuelan oil belongs to venezuela. why is this so hard to accept.

65

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.

So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?

Na, they got “opressed” by reality.

edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.

Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.

Capital is civilization, education and life.

yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned

This is actually true.

Things are scarce, the scarcer they are the more expensive they are, until only rich people can pay for them.

However, lots of things get only developed because rich people want them at first and then they trickle down to everyone.

If you distribute things “equally” ther is STILL not around for everybody. Things do not multiply if you socialize them. It is just that now that you can no longewr earn the finer things in live, you need political pull to get them.

You also garantue that nobody invests in that sector. Who would want their profits robbed from them if they are succesful?

so what you are saying is that the small group of wealthy people are the ones who should decide what gets developed and produced while the masses simply wait around for something to “trickle” down to them? i do not agree with this.

i do agree that it would be impossible to distribute the wealth equally and expect everyone to live the way americans do. but i also believe that wealth can be more equally distributed

Certainly, government is a better arbiter of capital. This has been shown over and over again in China, The USSR, East Germany, and on and on.

Free markets are evil, because they entail freedom.

[/quote]

all of the countries you mentioned (i assume you mentioned them because they were at one point falsely considered socialist)would be considered state capitalist. none of those governments were controlled by the people.

free markets entail freedom for who? for the wealthy entities that control the markets not for the common working class person.

66

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

venezuelan oil belongs to venezuela. why is this so hard to accept.

[/quote]

Well than they do have the right make cotracts with western companies to exploit their property.

Do they have the right to re-negotiate with a gun if they find out they do not like the deal thy negotiated themselves?

67

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

so what you are saying is that the small group of wealthy people are the ones who should decide what gets developed and produced while the masses simply wait around for something to “trickle” down to them? i do not agree with this.

Well you decide what you buy so you are indirectly influencing producers.

So not only do capitalists not decide what is produced and if so, only in their role as consumers, but for the masses better late than never is still the preferable alternative.

i do agree that it would be impossible to distribute the wealth equally and expect everyone to live the way americans do. but i also believe that wealth can be more equally distributed

Of course we could. We could rob the most productive ones and “help” the last productive ones.

What kind of capital growth, the only way out of world wide poverty, do you expect if you punish the clever use of resources and subsidize economic iliteracy?[/quote]

indirectly influencing? i dont buy that. i would prefer direct influence. i dont want to have inderect influence in my government i want direct influence. i believe that the economy and government are very closely related.

your statement reveals that the free market is very undemocratic.

i dont want to punish clever use of resources. explain to me how a small group of investors deserve to reap the majority of the wealth from a project that is succesful because of the hard work of many, many people. simply because they have the necessary capital? i cannot agree with this.

68

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned

Why bother with a more complex answer?

ARE YOU INSANE?

ARE YOU?

Capitalism is the reason these things do even exist and yet you complain that it also means not everbody gets the good stuff?

Without capitalism there would be nothing, nada, zilch, so what is your POINT?
[/quote]

man has existed before capitalism (as we know it)came to be and will exist after.

im not saying everybody doesnt get “the good stuff”, im saying a lot of people dont get the necessary stuff.

69

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
so you wouldnt be opposed to me going to your house, discovering oil then proceed to drill up your land. you would get a small percentage but i would keep most of the wealth. of course this is not logical.

venezuelan oil belongs to venezuela. why is this so hard to accept.

[/quote]

The oil in the ground is of no value. Its when its found and made useable that it acquires value. Who found the oil and who developed the oil fields? The oil companies were paying the brainless and incompetent Venezuelans for their input into the process, which happened to be an accident of geography.

The Venezuelan oil fields are like an intelligent person: if they can’t or won’t use their intelligence, then its a waste. The Venezuelans pounced on the fields AFTER the oil companies did all the work. Would you like it if someone stole all your hard work? Because of an accident of geography?

A bandit chieftain has little input into an industrial process. You pay him his extortion money to get him to leave you alone. Soon, he wants it ALL. That’s what’s happening here.

70

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.

Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?

Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?

‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.

Go demand a refund on your education.

Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.

so your saying the looter is not the foreigner who comes in to exploit the natural resources but rather the native people who demand what is rightfully theirs?

sure it takes capital to develop oil. but you have to understand that there is an alternative to the model of investment the U.S. imposes on countries all over the world. the U.S. was getting the lions share of the wealth, anyone can see this is unfair.

Since the foreigner pays the native people for access to oil as well as invests millions or billions in equipment to pump it out of the ground it is hard to consider him the looter.

The native that takes the foreigners money and then steals his equipment certainly looks like a thief.[/quote]

foreigners do not pay the native peoples for their oil, unless you want to call what the U.S. is doing in Iraq a payment. in venezuelas case there was a small group of people (involed in the oil business)who were getting rich, they all live in a certain area and own media outlets. after Chavez the common people are now starting to see that wealth.

there is an oil tycoon who has admitted that he can buy the front page news and he has admitted to paying crowds of people to go out and protest against chavez. im sure his intention is not to give power to the people.

i would like to see what people would say if another country went into the U.S. and started stealing the wealth of its natural resources.

71

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

venezuelan oil belongs to venezuela. why is this so hard to accept.

Well than they do have the right make cotracts with western companies to exploit their property.

Do they have the right to re-negotiate with a gun if they find out they do not like the deal thy negotiated themselves?[/quote]

who negotiated this deal? it definitely was not the people of venezuela.

venezuela is a poor country and the oil wealth has contributed to a lot of social programs. and has also been used to buy the debt of other countries. but what your are telling me is that the big oil corporations are losing profits so control should go back to them?

72

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
who invited them in? the people of venezuela sure didnt. and you are right the small group of corrupt leaders did get paid a lot of money but the people of venezuela never saw it.

Uh, the people of Venezuela were free until Chavez got there and started stealing from them.

Are you actually putting forth the notion that Chavez is not corrupt? What color is the sky in your world?

you are completely wrong. the people of Venezuela were not free. in 1989 people went out into the streets to protest government policy and the government responded by sending in the military and using murder and fear to quite the people. this was knwon as the caracazo and it was the beginning of the social movement which got Hugo Chavez elected.

you must also think that the people which lived in other countries ruled by U.S. backed military dictatorships were also free.

i do think there is some corruption in the venezuelan government but i believe it is at the lower levels of government which also includes the opposition parties.

i think we should stop focusing so much on Chavez and start looking at the heart of this movement which is the people of venezuela[/quote]

His only focus is to be a dictator and have total control, idiot. While evevryone else moves out, why don’t you move in.

73

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
so you wouldnt be opposed to me going to your house, discovering oil then proceed to drill up your land. you would get a small percentage but i would keep most of the wealth. of course this is not logical.

venezuelan oil belongs to venezuela. why is this so hard to accept.

The oil in the ground is of no value. Its when its found and made useable that it acquires value. Who found the oil and who developed the oil fields? The oil companies were paying the brainless and incompetent Venezuelans for their input into the process, which happened to be an accident of geography.

The Venezuelan oil fields are like an intelligent person: if they can’t or won’t use their intelligence, then its a waste. The Venezuelans pounced on the fields AFTER the oil companies did all the work. Would you like it if someone stole all your hard work? Because of an accident of geography?

A bandit chieftain has little input into an industrial process. You pay him his extortion money to get him to leave you alone. Soon, he wants it ALL. That’s what’s happening here.

[/quote]

why do you call venezuelans brainless and incompetent? you have no proof to back your statement. by making such a statement you prove that you yourself are brainless.

we have to go back into history for the reason that venezuelans were not allowed to develop their oil. latin america was conquered over 500 years ago and since that time the lands have been exploited. the imperialists that conquered latin america (spain then the U.S.) did not allow it to develop its own economy and instead decided to keep the majority of the wealth.

so now the people are organizing and are refusing to let the economic imperialists continue to exploit their wealth.

74

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
.
…

foreigners do not pay the native peoples for their oil, …[/quote]

Of course they do. Oil and mineral rights cost big money.

Keep ranting. Your premise is so ridiculous it is quite amusing.

75

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
…who negotiated this deal? it definitely was not the people of venezuela.

…
[/quote]

Who is this group called “the people” you are referring to?

76

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

i dont want to punish clever use of resources. explain to me how a small group of investors deserve to reap the majority of the wealth from a project that is succesful because of the hard work of many, many people. simply because they have the necessary capital? i cannot agree with this. [/quote]

Because the ‘many’ would be digging for roots in the forest w/o the brains of the outfit, the capitalist?

77

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
why do you call venezuelans brainless and incompetent? you have no proof to back your statement. by making such a statement you prove that you yourself are brainless.

[/quote]

Venezuela has been independent for some time. Why didn’t THEY develop the oil fields?

To savages, the oil is a nusiance that gets into the water supply for they’re goats. It is only an industrial society that has a use for petroleum. An industrial society requires free markets — why develop an oil field if the local savage-in-charge confiscates it?

Now, no one will invest in Venezuela. They won’t risk it. The poor people will starve. I’m very sad for them. However, if they thought they could get rich by robbing their betters using this bandit Chavez, they will soon learn the difference between production and theft.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

78

[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
who invited them in? the people of venezuela sure didnt. and you are right the small group of corrupt leaders did get paid a lot of money but the people of venezuela never saw it.

Uh, the people of Venezuela were free until Chavez got there and started stealing from them.

Are you actually putting forth the notion that Chavez is not corrupt? What color is the sky in your world?

you are completely wrong. the people of Venezuela were not free. in 1989 people went out into the streets to protest government policy and the government responded by sending in the military and using murder and fear to quite the people. this was knwon as the caracazo and it was the beginning of the social movement which got Hugo Chavez elected.

you must also think that the people which lived in other countries ruled by U.S. backed military dictatorships were also free.

i do think there is some corruption in the venezuelan government but i believe it is at the lower levels of government which also includes the opposition parties.

i think we should stop focusing so much on Chavez and start looking at the heart of this movement which is the people of venezuela

His only focus is to be a dictator and have total control, idiot. While evevryone else moves out, why don’t you move in.
[/quote]

so he is a dictator because he alienates people from the upper classes? these are the same people who were in business with the u.s. oil corporations. and now they are upset and they leave because chavez is distributing the wealth to the people who need it.

are we able to recall our president? no. in venezuela, yes.

if you consider chavez a dictator then george bush is something far worse. chavez does not go to war with other countries, he helps them by paying their debts. bush just overuled congress, venezuelan congress has extended chavez’s power. chavezhas the support of the majority, bush does not.

and again this is not about chavez, its about the people of venezuela. without the participation and support of the people, chavez would not be in power.

79

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
.
…

foreigners do not pay the native peoples for their oil, …

Of course they do. Oil and mineral rights cost big money.

Keep ranting. Your premise is so ridiculous it is quite amusing.[/quote]

your attempts to discredit my argument by claiming that they are rants do not work.

please read the statement, it says that the native people do not get money. a small group of business elites (who were getting all the oil money) does not constitue the native people.

you must understand that before chavez the government did not have as much access to the oil wealth and the wealth that it did have access to was not allowed to reach the people. it remained in the hands of the wealthy.

the people who are now being educated and receiving health care and are involved in politics due to due oil wealth, these are the people who should have been getting the money all along. and i think that it is fair that they get the majority and not the big U.S. oil companies.

i want to ask you a serious question and please answer honestly. do you read the posts in their intirety?

80

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
…who negotiated this deal? it definitely was not the people of venezuela.

…

Who is this group called “the people” you are referring to?

[/quote]

i am referring to the people of venezuela. workers, students, women, the elderly