[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Chavez doesn’t use fear? I can’t stop laughing. You’re a pill.
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng
The list of horrors from - of all wesbites - Amnesty International.
Hoisted by his petard.
[/quote]
“For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar”.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
[/quote]
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
[quote]orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
[/quote]
One of your best posts ever! If people would realize how long and difficult it was for the human race to attain its current level of development, to accumulate the capital that is the foundation of their lives, they wouldn’t spit on the capital-creators, the capitalists.
Well done, Orion!
[quote]orion wrote:
Capital is civilization, education and life.
[/quote]
And to the owners of capital it is wealth–which more often than not oppresses the aforementioned “civilization, education, and life”.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Capital is civilization, education and life.
And to the owners of capital it is wealth–which more often than not oppresses the aforementioned “civilization, education, and life”.
[/quote]
Bullshit, economy/wealth is not a zero sum game. The have or gain does not mean someone else has to do with out. There’s plenty for everybody, BUT you have to put forth some effort. Nobody is entitled.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Capital is civilization, education and life.
And to the owners of capital it is wealth–which more often than not oppresses the aforementioned “civilization, education, and life”.
[/quote]
If capitalists get wealthy by oppression and stealing from the poor, who buys what the capitalists produce? I mean, if the capitalists fuck everybody, who buys the cars, air conditioners, and so forth?
I read, a year or 2 ago (in a gov’t study), that we are in general 2.5 to 5 times better off than people living in 1900 (after adjusting for inflation). Is that what you call exploitation? Unless you want to make an Orwellian ‘1984’ argument, the idea of capitalism as exploitative and oppressive is dead.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.
Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?
Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?
‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.
Go demand a refund on your education.
[/quote]
Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.
[/quote]
I like your avatar…Photoshop or is there some bizaar chance it’s real.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.
I like your avatar…Photoshop or is there some bizaar chance it’s real.[/quote]
Got it off the web. I think they’re lovers in secret. 
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.
Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?
Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?
‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.
Go demand a refund on your education.
Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.
[/quote]
so your saying the looter is not the foreigner who comes in to exploit the natural resources but rather the native people who demand what is rightfully theirs?
sure it takes capital to develop oil. but you have to understand that there is an alternative to the model of investment the U.S. imposes on countries all over the world. the U.S. was getting the lions share of the wealth, anyone can see this is unfair.
[quote]orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
[/quote]
yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned
[quote]pat36 wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.
Are you serious? You’ve never been to South America have you? Things are different down there. Venezuela just like the rest of South America is drowning in a sea of corruption and has been for decades. Chavez didn’t ride in on his white horse and end corruption, he just used it to his advantage and where that didn’t work, he used the military and the police. N
Nobody came in a “exploited” their natural resources. They were invited in and Venezuela was paid handsomely for it.
Chavez doesn’t use fear? I can’t stop laughing. You’re a pill.
http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/ven-summary-eng[/quote]
who invited them in? the people of venezuela sure didnt. and you are right the small group of corrupt leaders did get paid a lot of money but the people of venezuela never saw it.
[quote]Lando034 wrote:
Lixy,
How much do you know about the FARC? Or the fact that Chavez supports the FARC with arms and supplies? Or the fact that a preponderance of the drugs from Columbia goes through Venezuela now? Ask the neighboring nations what they think of Chavez and his attempts to corrupt the democratic process in their elections. Also, Chavez?s form of government requires the huge influx of oil money to stay afloat, just like one of his closest allies, Iran. Neither nation would last six months without the state owned oil profits being used to subside the wages of the populace. Neither country is putting any money into infrastructure or any other source of income once they are out of oil.
Also, don?t think for a second that Chavez hasn?t invaded another country for any other reason than he doesn?t have the resources to do so. He has imprisoned/killed/fired any person in the military that has any training from the US military? which was most of the officers. In their place he had put his cronies that use the position to become famously rich? completely rendering his military incompetent. At the same time, ALL his neighbors are busy arming themselves to the teeth AND accepting training from US military forces. He would get crushed at his first overt military action, so he is reduced to funding/giving refuge to the FARC.
As for his approved rating; Saddam had similar ratings, for similar reasons, before he was removed from power. My final point on is this: When was the last time you spend a serious amount of time in a third world country, especially one controlled by a dictator? Or are all your comments made from the cocoon of the EU?
[/quote]
i have heard about the FARC and they are a marxist revolutionary group. however i have not heard of Chavez funding them although i would not be surprised. i do know that the U.S. funds the columbian government and trains the paramilitary forces that control the drug trade.
i do not agree with some of the methods used by the FARC but i do believe they are fighting for the the masses.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
who invited them in? the people of venezuela sure didnt. and you are right the small group of corrupt leaders did get paid a lot of money but the people of venezuela never saw it.[/quote]
Uh, the people of Venezuela were free until Chavez got there and started stealing from them.
Are you actually putting forth the notion that Chavez is not corrupt? What color is the sky in your world?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
orion wrote:
Capital is civilization, education and life.
And to the owners of capital it is wealth–which more often than not oppresses the aforementioned “civilization, education, and life”.
[/quote]
So what are they doing with their wealth?
If they spend it, they create jobs, fund public infrastructure and so on…
If they save and invest it they create companies that create jobs, fund public infrastructure and so on…
That kind of opression is so unbarable that people try to swim to the US to be oppressed though they could enjoy Cuban fredom
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned[/quote]
This is actually true.
Things are scarce, the scarcer they are the more expensive they are, until only rich people can pay for them.
However, lots of things get only developed because rich people want them at first and then they trickle down to everyone.
If you distribute things “equally” ther is STILL not around for everybody. Things do not multiply if you socialize them. It is just that now that you can no longewr earn the finer things in live, you need political pull to get them.
You also garantue that nobody invests in that sector. Who would want their profits robbed from them if they are succesful?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
pat36 wrote:
who invited them in? the people of venezuela sure didnt. and you are right the small group of corrupt leaders did get paid a lot of money but the people of venezuela never saw it.
Uh, the people of Venezuela were free until Chavez got there and started stealing from them.
Are you actually putting forth the notion that Chavez is not corrupt? What color is the sky in your world?[/quote]
you are completely wrong. the people of Venezuela were not free. in 1989 people went out into the streets to protest government policy and the government responded by sending in the military and using murder and fear to quite the people. this was knwon as the caracazo and it was the beginning of the social movement which got Hugo Chavez elected.
you must also think that the people which lived in other countries ruled by U.S. backed military dictatorships were also free.
i do think there is some corruption in the venezuelan government but i believe it is at the lower levels of government which also includes the opposition parties.
i think we should stop focusing so much on Chavez and start looking at the heart of this movement which is the people of venezuela
[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned
This is actually true.
Things are scarce, the scarcer they are the more expensive they are, until only rich people can pay for them.
However, lots of things get only developed because rich people want them at first and then they trickle down to everyone.
If you distribute things “equally” ther is STILL not around for everybody. Things do not multiply if you socialize them. It is just that now that you can no longewr earn the finer things in live, you need political pull to get them.
You also garantue that nobody invests in that sector. Who would want their profits robbed from them if they are succesful?
[/quote]
so what you are saying is that the small group of wealthy people are the ones who should decide what gets developed and produced while the masses simply wait around for something to “trickle” down to them? i do not agree with this.
i do agree that it would be impossible to distribute the wealth equally and expect everyone to live the way americans do. but i also believe that wealth can be more equally distributed
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chavez isn’t using fear. He doesn’t need to. The Venezuelans see with their own eyes the profits made by foreign companies by exploiting their natural resources.
Why didn’t the Venezuelans develop their own resources, instead of waiting for the Great Satan’s Big Oil to come and develop it for them?
Why do they wait until the oil companies have the assets in place before pouncing? Could they be…uhhh…looters?
‘Exploiting’? What was Venezuela like before the oil companies decided to ‘exploit’ the oil? It was another backwater bandit fiefdom.
Go demand a refund on your education.
Guess Lixy’s too busy to answer this question.
so your saying the looter is not the foreigner who comes in to exploit the natural resources but rather the native people who demand what is rightfully theirs?
sure it takes capital to develop oil. but you have to understand that there is an alternative to the model of investment the U.S. imposes on countries all over the world. the U.S. was getting the lions share of the wealth, anyone can see this is unfair.[/quote]
The Venezuelans could have 30% of something, or 100% of nothing (since they were incompetent to develop the fields).
Its not exploitation to turn a swamp into a mountain of gold and get most of the mountain, in other words.
[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m a LOT older than you (a lot) and what you are saying has been said by idealistic dreamers since way back when.
So? Just because they got oppressed by capital-whoring governments doesn’t mean the dream has to die, now does it?
Na, they got “opressed” by reality.
edit: you also need to get your definition of capital right. Capital as in investment goods is all that separates us from the stone age.
Capital is the computer you are using, the harvest machines that feed you, the machines that clothe and shelter you and the machines and buildings that heal you when you are sick.
Capital is civilization, education and life.
yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned
This is actually true.
Things are scarce, the scarcer they are the more expensive they are, until only rich people can pay for them.
However, lots of things get only developed because rich people want them at first and then they trickle down to everyone.
If you distribute things “equally” ther is STILL not around for everybody. Things do not multiply if you socialize them. It is just that now that you can no longewr earn the finer things in live, you need political pull to get them.
You also garantue that nobody invests in that sector. Who would want their profits robbed from them if they are succesful?
so what you are saying is that the small group of wealthy people are the ones who should decide what gets developed and produced while the masses simply wait around for something to “trickle” down to them? i do not agree with this.
i do agree that it would be impossible to distribute the wealth equally and expect everyone to live the way americans do. but i also believe that wealth can be more equally distributed
[/quote]
Certainly, government is a better arbiter of capital. This has been shown over and over again in China, The USSR, East Germany, and on and on.
Free markets are evil, because they entail freedom.