Chavez and Big Oil

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
why do you call venezuelans brainless and incompetent? you have no proof to back your statement. by making such a statement you prove that you yourself are brainless.

Venezuela has been independent for some time. Why didn’t THEY develop the oil fields?

To savages, the oil is a nusiance that gets into the water supply for they’re goats. It is only an industrial society that has a use for petroleum. An industrial society requires free markets — why develop an oil field if the local savage-in-charge confiscates it?

Now, no one will invest in Venezuela. They won’t risk it. The poor people will starve. I’m very sad for them. However, if they thought they could get rich by robbing their betters using this bandit Chavez, they will soon learn the difference between production and theft.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[/quote]

i agree, which is why you should learn history.

venezuela has been economically dependent for a very long time. now it is trying to gain economic independence

did you not read my post where i said that do to economic imperialism venezuela was not allowed to become an industrialized nation

robbing their betters? who says fareigners are better than venezuelans? you are a racist and have discredited yourself.

82

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned

Why bother with a more complex answer?

ARE YOU INSANE?

ARE YOU?

Capitalism is the reason these things do even exist and yet you complain that it also means not everbody gets the good stuff?

Without capitalism there would be nothing, nada, zilch, so what is your POINT?

man has existed before capitalism (as we know it)came to be and will exist after.

im not saying everybody doesnt get “the good stuff”, im saying a lot of people dont get the necessary stuff.[/quote]

Between 1400 and 1800 the population in Europe doubled and productivity remained roughly the same.

The result was extreme poverty.

Within decades capitalism managed to triple an average persons income while the population doubled again.

So capitalism brought Europe out of extreme poverty and now it is doing the same with Asia and Latin America, at least on those countries that have laws that allow them to participate in it.

This is an unheard if phenomenon historically, the end of poverty for billions of people and an unequal distribution of wealth at least loosely related to merit is an absolute necessity for it top work

Again, why do you want to punish economic success and reward the waste of resources?

83

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

free markets entail freedom for who? for the wealthy entities that control the markets not for the common working class person.

[/quote]

This is blatantly false.

Since noone can force you to buy a product, the consumer allways decides. The capitalist reacts to the consumers wishes or loses his fortune.

84

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

indirectly influencing? i dont buy that. i would prefer direct influence. i dont want to have inderect influence in my government i want direct influence. i believe that the economy and government are very closely related.
[/quote]

True, they are very close. The more economic freedom you have, the less you depnd on governmet.

Absolutely! That is probably the best part of it! Why vote on things when everyone can decide for himself?

[quote]
i dont want to punish clever use of resources. explain to me how a small group of investors deserve to reap the majority of the wealth from a project that is succesful because of the hard work of many, many people. simply because they have the necessary capital? i cannot agree with this. [/quote]

The queston is, why do they have the necessary capital? Because they made sound economic decisions in the past, that is why.

Because they bear the enormous risk that goes along with a great project.

Because it is extremely hard to put an oil platform together and very few companies can do it.

Because they are an elite when it comes to getting things done.

Because they are rewarded for being exceptionally in touch with reality.

85

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

who negotiated this deal? it definitely was not the people of venezuela.

[/quote]

Should we have asked all of them to sign?

86

in recent news: hugo chavez declared that the minimum wage in venezuela will be increased by 20% and he also plans on shortening the work week from 44 hrs to 36 hrs by 2010.

hugo chavez also severed ties with the IMF and world bank. before chavez became president, IMF policies in venezuela outlawed minimum wage increases.

87

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

venezuela has been economically dependent for a very long time. now it is trying to gain economic independence
[/quote]

How exceptionally stupid of them, since the richest countris depend very much on other countris.

88

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
in recent news: hugo chavez declared that the minimum wage in venezuela will be increased by 20% and he also plans on shortening the work week from 44 hrs to 36 hrs by 2010.

hugo chavez also severed ties with the IMF and world bank. before chavez became president, IMF policies in venezuela outlawed minimum wage increases.[/quote]

Fantastic.

He just screwed over the least qualified and poorest part of society and eliminated one of the few economic advantages Venezuela had.

As for the argument why minimum wage laws hurt the poor, let me lead you to basic economic facts.

If prizes rise, demand drops.

So, make work more expensive for the employer, he employs less workers. Who will he fire first? The ones that are less produtive than they had to be to earn the minimum wage.

89

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

yes, and capitalism is the thing that prevents everyone from having equal access to things you mentioned

Why bother with a more complex answer?

ARE YOU INSANE?

ARE YOU?

Capitalism is the reason these things do even exist and yet you complain that it also means not everbody gets the good stuff?

Without capitalism there would be nothing, nada, zilch, so what is your POINT?

man has existed before capitalism (as we know it)came to be and will exist after.

im not saying everybody doesnt get “the good stuff”, im saying a lot of people dont get the necessary stuff.

Between 1400 and 1800 the population in Europe doubled and productivity remained roughly the same.

The result was extreme poverty.

Within decades capitalism managed to triple an average persons income while the population doubled again.

So capitalism brought Europe out of extreme poverty and now it is doing the same with Asia and Latin America, at least on those countries that have laws that allow them to participate in it.

This is an unheard if phenomenon historically, the end of poverty for billions of people and an unequal distribution of wealth at least loosely related to merit is an absolute necessity for it top work

Again, why do you want to punish economic success and reward the waste of resources? [/quote]

you forgot to mention that england was an imperialist nation and while it became wealthy it oppressed and exploited the people of its colonies.

it has not kept latin america out of extreme poverty, it has slowed its rate of development.

as far as china, i think it is pretty clear that they use protectionist policies in their economy

capitalism has created great wealth, but it is wealth that only a minority can benefit from.

you also forget to mention the millions of farmers and small businessmen who are continously going out of business due to unfair competition, as well as the people who loose access to water sources and medicine because of privatization, not to mention the contamination of communities by factories.

also, you cant deny that capitalism causes wars.

90

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

free markets entail freedom for who? for the wealthy entities that control the markets not for the common working class person.

This is blatantly false.

Since noone can force you to buy a product, the consumer allways decides. The capitalist reacts to the consumers wishes or loses his fortune.[/quote]

if a corporation comes in and buys the water resources i am now forced to buy the water. i do not have a choice.

in mexico the telecomunications industry is monopolized. consumers dont have a choice. but to you the bright side would be that such a monopoly has produced great wealth for one man and he is now the third richest man in the world (that we know of)

91

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

who negotiated this deal? it definitely was not the people of venezuela.

Should we have asked all of them to sign?[/quote]

they dont all have to sign a piece of paper but they should all be informed about it and they should all take part in the decision making process. this is called democracy

92

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

venezuela has been economically dependent for a very long time. now it is trying to gain economic independence

How exceptionally stupid of them, since the richest countris depend very much on other countris.[/quote]

when i say independence i mean independence from U.S. economic imperialism.

93

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
in recent news: hugo chavez declared that the minimum wage in venezuela will be increased by 20% and he also plans on shortening the work week from 44 hrs to 36 hrs by 2010.

hugo chavez also severed ties with the IMF and world bank. before chavez became president, IMF policies in venezuela outlawed minimum wage increases.

Fantastic.

He just screwed over the least qualified and poorest part of society and eliminated one of the few economic advantages Venezuela had.

As for the argument why minimum wage laws hurt the poor, let me lead you to basic economic facts.

If prizes rise, demand drops.

So, make work more expensive for the employer, he employs less workers. Who will he fire first? The ones that are less produtive than they had to be to earn the minimum wage. [/quote]

this is the environment that capitalism creates. the profit is given more importance than the worker. this is why i disagree with capitalism.

why are the IMF and the World Bank an economic advantage? their policies are clearly written to benefit multinational corporations and banks

94

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
i am referring to the people of venezuela. workers, students, women, the elderly[/quote]

They don’t speak with one voice.

95

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

free markets entail freedom for who? for the wealthy entities that control the markets not for the common working class person.

This is blatantly false.

Since noone can force you to buy a product, the consumer allways decides. The capitalist reacts to the consumers wishes or loses his fortune.

if a corporation comes in and buys the water resources i am now forced to buy the water. i do not have a choice.

in mexico the telecomunications industry is monopolized. consumers dont have a choice. but to you the bright side would be that such a monopoly has produced great wealth for one man and he is now the third richest man in the world (that we know of)

[/quote]

Monopolies cannot exist in a free market, unless it is a monopoly that is based on controlling natutal resources, so your water example is actually the first entirely acurate example you bring to the table.

You can adress such market failures with cartel laws very efficiently and there is allmost noone denying that such laws are sometimes necessary.

96

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

you forgot to mention that england was an imperialist nation and while it became wealthy it oppressed and exploited the people of its colonies.

it has not kept latin america out of extreme poverty, it has slowed its rate of development.

as far as china, i think it is pretty clear that they use protectionist policies in their economy

capitalism has created great wealth, but it is wealth that only a minority can benefit from.

you also forget to mention the millions of farmers and small businessmen who are continously going out of business due to unfair competition, as well as the people who loose access to water sources and medicine because of privatization, not to mention the contamination of communities by factories.

also, you cant deny that capitalism causes wars.
[/quote]

Capitalism is a method of producing things. It simply cannot start wars.

The rest is something you associate with capitalism though it also happened in very other economic system from feudalism to mercantilim to socialism, so why blame capitalism?

That capitalist economies tend to win violent encounters. due to the strenght of their economy is probably true, but not an argument against capitalism per se.

97

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i am referring to the people of venezuela. workers, students, women, the elderly

They don’t speak with one voice.[/quote]

i agree, and before chavez they didnt have a voice at all.

i understand that everyone wont agree on everything but the important thing is that they be involved in the decision making process and they are the ones who should ultimately make the decisions.

98

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

this is the environment that capitalism creates. the profit is given more importance than the worker. this is why i disagree with capitalism.
[/quote]

No, this is what is wrong with reality.

A real advantage of capitalism is that it can put numbers on scarcity, but just because capitalism reflects reality very clearly, it is not to blame for realities burdens.

You can of course choose not to agree with reality. A lot of people do that. You cannot vote on economic laws though, in the end they allways win. It is like raving against gravity.

Absolutely. I`d abolish them tomorrow and I doubt anyone would miss them.

99

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

free markets entail freedom for who? for the wealthy entities that control the markets not for the common working class person.

This is blatantly false.

Since noone can force you to buy a product, the consumer allways decides. The capitalist reacts to the consumers wishes or loses his fortune.

if a corporation comes in and buys the water resources i am now forced to buy the water. i do not have a choice.

in mexico the telecomunications industry is monopolized. consumers dont have a choice. but to you the bright side would be that such a monopoly has produced great wealth for one man and he is now the third richest man in the world (that we know of)

Monopolies cannot exist in a free market, unless it is a monopoly that is based on controlling natutal resources, so your water example is actually the first entirely acurate example you bring to the table.

You can adress such market failures with cartel laws very efficiently and there is allmost noone denying that such laws are sometimes necessary.

[/quote]

a “free market” as you would describe it could never exist becuase of capitalism. who ever has the most capital will do what they can to keep increasing their capital and this includes buying governments and creating laws that benefit them, this also includes creating monopolies.

100

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i am referring to the people of venezuela. workers, students, women, the elderly

They don’t speak with one voice.

i agree, and before chavez they didnt have a voice at all.

i understand that everyone wont agree on everything but the important thing is that they be involved in the decision making process and they are the ones who should ultimately make the decisions.
[/quote]

So why did it allways lead to desaster when the Demos actually ruled?

Why do we have allmost allways representational democracies, i.e. republics instead of “true” democracies?

I`d say because most people are incompetent idiots, what is your opinion?