I don’t watch much tv…so can someone tell me why so many people seem to suddenly care what Sheen has to say?
What happened that made everyone in the country give a shit?
This is like those people worried about Mel Gibson’s kids. THEY’RE SUPER RICH! THEY’RE NOT REAL PEOPLE!
lol
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Holy hell bud, why don’t you go stand on the tallest rooftop and shout to the world “I’M AN IDIOT”?
Off the top of my head I would say Tim Lincecum has the BEST mechanics I have ever seen. Regardless of weather there are a few others out there with better mechanics, everyone who knows baseball would describe his delivery as fantastic. [/quote]
Thank you. I tried to use restraint in my response and I regretted doing so. In actuality, Lincecum does indeed have good mechanics. I think it’s a stretch to say that he has the BEST mechanics (I think Cliff Lee and Matt Cain have some of the best mechanics in the game), but they are very good. Even when his landing foot comes down, technically he isn’t really in a great position to throw, regarding his throwing arm, but he compensates with his huge stride toward the plate and the fact that he can keep his lead shoulder pointed toward the hitter for so long. So even though his arm is “late” the rest of his body allows for it to drag a little behind by providing extra torque that helps pull the arm through with less strain than it would otherwise.
I also found the “results over mechanics” argument to be an obvious sign of a total lack of knowledge when it comes to pitching and baseball. All pitching prospects get results, it’s the ones with good mechanics and good builds that separate themselves from the rest.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
I only read the first 2 and last 2 paragraphs of your post. I was under the impression you were in agreement with cuban32’s assessment of Bautista. Am I wrong?
In regards to adding velocity to a pitcher would you say it’s much easier to add MPH at lower speeds than at Major League type velocity? Is increasing your fastball from 85 to 91 exponentially more difficult than getting it to go from 79 to 85? The reason I consider it possible Sheen isn’t lying is because his end result was still a mediocre velocity by MLB standards.
I don’t disagree that he could be bullshitting for publicity, either it’s working since we’re talking about him heh.[/quote]
I could care less about Bautista. He plays on an irrelevant team in an irrelevant city. It would not surprise me if he was using HGH since it can help you track the ball much better and HGH in moderation, without using testable banned substances, won’t result in a huge size gain. But an increase in production of his magnitude isn’t evidence of anything other than an increase in production. It’s pointless to engage in this discussion unless there is some actual, credible evidence linking him to steroid use.
As for Sheen, yes, 85mph is well below the average Major League fastball. But Sheen is not an MLBer, so why Sheen is being held to MLB standards on your part makes zero sense. 85mph is still pretty hard at the non-professional level, especially for someone who doesn’t play competitively. The point is that if Sheen can pick up a baseball out of nowhere and go from 79 to 85mph in 6-8 weeks after having not played competitively since high school (meaning he hasn’t been playing OR practicing) that means he must have much more room to put more velocity on his fastball.
I have a friend who played in the minors for the Reds for a few seasons. He was a pitcher and threw right around 90mph. He retired after his wife got pregnant and it was clear he wasn’t moving out of A-ball anytime soon. To my knowledge, he doesn’t play at all anymore. He’s only 29, so I’m sure if he got back into shape he could get to 85mph pretty quickly. But that is because it does not represent the limit of his arm strength. His limit is 90. And he certainly isn’t going to be able to go from wherever he’s at now to his full potential in 6-8 weeks. Am I making sense here?
[/quote]
It does not say how long Sheen actually practised his pitching for this role, it just said he juiced for 6-8 weeks and during that period his velocity increased 6mph. For all we know he could’ve spent months working on his pitching and simply experienced the velocity increase while juicing.
I’m comparing him to Major League standards because below that level feats are much more attainable and thus more likely to have occurred.
Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, he could be bullshitting but I think there’s a decent possibility he’s telling the truth.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
You just wrote the wall of text he claimed he wouldn’t read.
You do realize you’re comparing real pitchers to an actor (even if he claims he had prior pitching experience at a lower level)? To say you never saw a pitcher put velocity on his fastball due to strength gains is a tad fallacious when the subject matter is whether an untrained amateur like Sheen was able to do so. Further, whether or not he added velocity to his fastball is really not the point is it? I thought the point is that Sheen claimed to have used AAS in prep for his role in Major League? What Sheen thinks that did for him is pretty much irrelevant. I’m sure it was more for aesthetic purposes than putting velocity on his fastball since I’m pretty sure no one put a radar gun on him when he auditioned for the role :)[/quote]
Sheen was at one point a pitcher, so the comparison is simply between people who have played baseball at a significant level, so he isn’t really an untrained amateur in the sense that you are thinking of. Since most of the pitchers I have coached and actually seen gain velocity during the course of one single season are high school aged kids, comparing someone with even more experience than that makes sense. But even when comparing him to other pitchers I’ve played with at the DI level, I don’t believe his velocity claim or his claim that his velocity went up to 85 due to steroids.
Also, he did attribute the alleged gain in velocity to steroid use, so whether or not steroid use is likely to lead to this gain in speed is indeed relevant. And radar guns are only a couple hundred bucks. The only way I could be more positive that there was a radar gun on set was if I actually saw it being used. Shit, they even have one in the movie itself. Perhaps the radar gun was inaccurate, hence his claims about an 85mph fastball.
I’d use steroids to look right for a movie role too. I’m sure lots of actors do.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
I only read the first 2 and last 2 paragraphs of your post. I was under the impression you were in agreement with cuban32’s assessment of Bautista. Am I wrong?
In regards to adding velocity to a pitcher would you say it’s much easier to add MPH at lower speeds than at Major League type velocity? Is increasing your fastball from 85 to 91 exponentially more difficult than getting it to go from 79 to 85? The reason I consider it possible Sheen isn’t lying is because his end result was still a mediocre velocity by MLB standards.
I don’t disagree that he could be bullshitting for publicity, either it’s working since we’re talking about him heh.[/quote]
I could care less about Bautista. He plays on an irrelevant team in an irrelevant city. It would not surprise me if he was using HGH since it can help you track the ball much better and HGH in moderation, without using testable banned substances, won’t result in a huge size gain. But an increase in production of his magnitude isn’t evidence of anything other than an increase in production. It’s pointless to engage in this discussion unless there is some actual, credible evidence linking him to steroid use.
As for Sheen, yes, 85mph is well below the average Major League fastball. But Sheen is not an MLBer, so why Sheen is being held to MLB standards on your part makes zero sense. 85mph is still pretty hard at the non-professional level, especially for someone who doesn’t play competitively. The point is that if Sheen can pick up a baseball out of nowhere and go from 79 to 85mph in 6-8 weeks after having not played competitively since high school (meaning he hasn’t been playing OR practicing) that means he must have much more room to put more velocity on his fastball.
I have a friend who played in the minors for the Reds for a few seasons. He was a pitcher and threw right around 90mph. He retired after his wife got pregnant and it was clear he wasn’t moving out of A-ball anytime soon. To my knowledge, he doesn’t play at all anymore. He’s only 29, so I’m sure if he got back into shape he could get to 85mph pretty quickly. But that is because it does not represent the limit of his arm strength. His limit is 90. And he certainly isn’t going to be able to go from wherever he’s at now to his full potential in 6-8 weeks. Am I making sense here?
[/quote]
It does not say how long Sheen actually practised his pitching for this role, it just said he juiced for 6-8 weeks and during that period his velocity increased 6mph. For all we know he could’ve spent months working on his pitching and simply experienced the velocity increase while juicing.
I’m comparing him to Major League standards because below that level feats are much more attainable and thus more likely to have occurred.
Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, he could be bullshitting but I think there’s a decent possibility he’s telling the truth.
[/quote]
Feats and accomplishments below the Major League level are very hard to attain, for someone who isn’t a professional athlete. Just because 90mph isn’t that big of a deal in the bigs doesn’t mean that 85mph is nothing. That’s probably about the average fastball in DI baseball. Is it impossible for Sheen to hit that speed, or even higher? No, but possible and probable are two totally different things. Given the fact that Sheen has been a worthless drug addict, woman-beater, alcoholic, heavy smoker, didn’t play competitively for years previous to filming the movie and the fact that he is a totally untrustworthy person leads me to believe that anyone who believes his claims about his fastball either are infatuated with Sheen or know nothing about pitching. Which one are you?
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
You just wrote the wall of text he claimed he wouldn’t read.
You do realize you’re comparing real pitchers to an actor (even if he claims he had prior pitching experience at a lower level)? To say you never saw a pitcher put velocity on his fastball due to strength gains is a tad fallacious when the subject matter is whether an untrained amateur like Sheen was able to do so. Further, whether or not he added velocity to his fastball is really not the point is it? I thought the point is that Sheen claimed to have used AAS in prep for his role in Major League? What Sheen thinks that did for him is pretty much irrelevant. I’m sure it was more for aesthetic purposes than putting velocity on his fastball since I’m pretty sure no one put a radar gun on him when he auditioned for the role :)[/quote]
Sheen was at one point a pitcher, so the comparison is simply between people who have played baseball at a significant level, so he isn’t really an untrained amateur in the sense that you are thinking of. Since most of the pitchers I have coached and actually seen gain velocity during the course of one single season are high school aged kids, comparing someone with even more experience than that makes sense. But even when comparing him to other pitchers I’ve played with at the DI level, I don’t believe his velocity claim or his claim that his velocity went up to 85 due to steroids.
Also, he did attribute the alleged gain in velocity to steroid use, so whether or not steroid use is likely to lead to this gain in speed is indeed relevant. And radar guns are only a couple hundred bucks. The only way I could be more positive that there was a radar gun on set was if I actually saw it being used. Shit, they even have one in the movie itself. Perhaps the radar gun was inaccurate, hence his claims about an 85mph fastball.[/quote]
I want to know what you have to say, but I’m not going to read a page long essay every time you try to make a single point. You are a smart dude, but can you please learn to write more succinctly? Part of being a good writer is the ability to be concise.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t watch much tv…so can someone tell me why so many people seem to suddenly care what Sheen has to say?
What happened that made everyone in the country give a shit?
This is like those people worried about Mel Gibson’s kids. THEY’RE SUPER RICH! THEY’RE NOT REAL PEOPLE!
lol[/quote]
I don’t watch much TV either. In fact, I never saw Sheen’s TV show.
Maybe the interest is due to the complacent boring lives most American’s live. Besides, most people like watching someone fall down.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t watch much tv…so can someone tell me why so many people seem to suddenly care what Sheen has to say?
What happened that made everyone in the country give a shit?
This is like those people worried about Mel Gibson’s kids. THEY’RE SUPER RICH! THEY’RE NOT REAL PEOPLE!
lol[/quote]
I don’t watch much TV either. In fact, I never saw Sheen’s TV show.
Maybe the interest is due to the complacent boring lives most American’s live. Besides, most people like watching someone fall down. [/quote]
Yea for us old guys, I have never seen his TV show either. Sheen basically peaked for me in Major League and Hot shots.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Off the top of my head I would say Tim Lincecum has the BEST mechanics I have ever seen. Regardless of weather there are a few others out there with better mechanics, everyone who knows baseball would describe his delivery as fantastic. [/quote]
Lincecum does indeed have good mechanics. I think it’s a stretch to say that he has the BEST mechanics (I think Cliff Lee and Matt Cain have some of the best mechanics in the game), but they are very good. Even when his landing foot comes down, technically he isn’t really in a great position to throw, regarding his throwing arm, but he compensates with his huge stride toward the plate and the fact that he can keep his lead shoulder pointed toward the hitter for so long. So even though his arm is “late” the rest of his body allows for it to drag a little behind by providing extra torque that helps pull the arm through with less strain than it would otherwise.
[/quote]
The only thing I’d like to see different from Lincecum is a little shorter stride but with still having the excessive jump he has off the rubber. This would allow him to have a little more rotational force around a stiffer front leg. I think his is bent a little too much (Professor X, this is a baseball discussion if you’re starting to get a little uncomfortable hearing words like ‘bent’ and ‘stiffer’ being use together) but what the hell do I know I’m sitting at this desk and he’s Tim Fucking Lincecum.
I checked a video of Matt Cain. His delivery is a carbon copy of TL except his stride is a normal length and he doesn’t leap off the rubber.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
I only read the first 2 and last 2 paragraphs of your post. I was under the impression you were in agreement with cuban32’s assessment of Bautista. Am I wrong?
In regards to adding velocity to a pitcher would you say it’s much easier to add MPH at lower speeds than at Major League type velocity? Is increasing your fastball from 85 to 91 exponentially more difficult than getting it to go from 79 to 85? The reason I consider it possible Sheen isn’t lying is because his end result was still a mediocre velocity by MLB standards.
I don’t disagree that he could be bullshitting for publicity, either it’s working since we’re talking about him heh.[/quote]
I could care less about Bautista. He plays on an irrelevant team in an irrelevant city. It would not surprise me if he was using HGH since it can help you track the ball much better and HGH in moderation, without using testable banned substances, won’t result in a huge size gain. But an increase in production of his magnitude isn’t evidence of anything other than an increase in production. It’s pointless to engage in this discussion unless there is some actual, credible evidence linking him to steroid use.
As for Sheen, yes, 85mph is well below the average Major League fastball. But Sheen is not an MLBer, so why Sheen is being held to MLB standards on your part makes zero sense. 85mph is still pretty hard at the non-professional level, especially for someone who doesn’t play competitively. The point is that if Sheen can pick up a baseball out of nowhere and go from 79 to 85mph in 6-8 weeks after having not played competitively since high school (meaning he hasn’t been playing OR practicing) that means he must have much more room to put more velocity on his fastball.
I have a friend who played in the minors for the Reds for a few seasons. He was a pitcher and threw right around 90mph. He retired after his wife got pregnant and it was clear he wasn’t moving out of A-ball anytime soon. To my knowledge, he doesn’t play at all anymore. He’s only 29, so I’m sure if he got back into shape he could get to 85mph pretty quickly. But that is because it does not represent the limit of his arm strength. His limit is 90. And he certainly isn’t going to be able to go from wherever he’s at now to his full potential in 6-8 weeks. Am I making sense here?
[/quote]
It does not say how long Sheen actually practised his pitching for this role, it just said he juiced for 6-8 weeks and during that period his velocity increased 6mph. For all we know he could’ve spent months working on his pitching and simply experienced the velocity increase while juicing.
I’m comparing him to Major League standards because below that level feats are much more attainable and thus more likely to have occurred.
Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, he could be bullshitting but I think there’s a decent possibility he’s telling the truth.
[/quote]
Feats and accomplishments below the Major League level are very hard to attain, for someone who isn’t a professional athlete. Just because 90mph isn’t that big of a deal in the bigs doesn’t mean that 85mph is nothing. That’s probably about the average fastball in DI baseball. Is it impossible for Sheen to hit that speed, or even higher? No, but possible and probable are two totally different things. Given the fact that Sheen has been a worthless drug addict, woman-beater, alcoholic, heavy smoker, didn’t play competitively for years previous to filming the movie and the fact that he is a totally untrustworthy person leads me to believe that anyone who believes his claims about his fastball either are infatuated with Sheen or know nothing about pitching. Which one are you?[/quote]
Neither.
The fact that he played baseball at a high level, could’ve spent months practising his pitching while receiving expert coaching and taking steroids makes me believe the probability of his claims being true aren’t as slim as you assert. Not to mention the guy was also offered a baseball scholarship which he turned down. He has always been a baseball fanatic his whole life. I wouldn’t be surprised he always kept his baseball abilities in decent shape at all times.
As well the known cases of of his woman beating and drug abuse all took place after the release of Major League. You have no idea what he was like in his 20’s.
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
You just wrote the wall of text he claimed he wouldn’t read.
You do realize you’re comparing real pitchers to an actor (even if he claims he had prior pitching experience at a lower level)? To say you never saw a pitcher put velocity on his fastball due to strength gains is a tad fallacious when the subject matter is whether an untrained amateur like Sheen was able to do so. Further, whether or not he added velocity to his fastball is really not the point is it? I thought the point is that Sheen claimed to have used AAS in prep for his role in Major League? What Sheen thinks that did for him is pretty much irrelevant. I’m sure it was more for aesthetic purposes than putting velocity on his fastball since I’m pretty sure no one put a radar gun on him when he auditioned for the role :)[/quote]
Sheen was at one point a pitcher, so the comparison is simply between people who have played baseball at a significant level, so he isn’t really an untrained amateur in the sense that you are thinking of. Since most of the pitchers I have coached and actually seen gain velocity during the course of one single season are high school aged kids, comparing someone with even more experience than that makes sense. But even when comparing him to other pitchers I’ve played with at the DI level, I don’t believe his velocity claim or his claim that his velocity went up to 85 due to steroids.
Also, he did attribute the alleged gain in velocity to steroid use, so whether or not steroid use is likely to lead to this gain in speed is indeed relevant. And radar guns are only a couple hundred bucks. The only way I could be more positive that there was a radar gun on set was if I actually saw it being used. Shit, they even have one in the movie itself. Perhaps the radar gun was inaccurate, hence his claims about an 85mph fastball.[/quote]
I want to know what you have to say, but I’m not going to read a page long essay every time you try to make a single point. You are a smart dude, but can you please learn to write more succinctly? Part of being a good writer is the ability to be concise.
[/quote]
This was directed at BodyGuard, who actually has an attention span, not you. So fuck off.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Off the top of my head I would say Tim Lincecum has the BEST mechanics I have ever seen. Regardless of weather there are a few others out there with better mechanics, everyone who knows baseball would describe his delivery as fantastic. [/quote]
Lincecum does indeed have good mechanics. I think it’s a stretch to say that he has the BEST mechanics (I think Cliff Lee and Matt Cain have some of the best mechanics in the game), but they are very good. Even when his landing foot comes down, technically he isn’t really in a great position to throw, regarding his throwing arm, but he compensates with his huge stride toward the plate and the fact that he can keep his lead shoulder pointed toward the hitter for so long. So even though his arm is “late” the rest of his body allows for it to drag a little behind by providing extra torque that helps pull the arm through with less strain than it would otherwise.
[/quote]
The only thing I’d like to see different from Lincecum is a little shorter stride but with still having the excessive jump he has off the rubber. This would allow him to have a little more rotational force around a stiffer front leg. I think his is bent a little too much (Professor X, this is a baseball discussion if you’re starting to get a little uncomfortable hearing words like ‘bent’ and ‘stiffer’ being use together) but what the hell do I know I’m sitting at this desk and he’s Tim Fucking Lincecum.
I checked a video of Matt Cain. His delivery is a carbon copy of TL except his stride is a normal length and he doesn’t leap off the rubber.
[/quote]
Okay, stop. First of all, landing on a stiff leg (especially when you land on your heel rather than your toes, which is invariably what happens when you land on a stiff leg) is a recipe for disaster for many pitchers. It is essentially a braking motion that puts extra stress on the back and hips and for many pitchers this leads to arm problems. Remember, this is a kinetic link we’re talking about.
As far as his stride goes, shortening it will lead to a loss of velocity simply because to shorten it means he can’t actually “jump” or drive toward the plate as much, meaning that he decreases the momentum that he has going toward the plate. The long stride length also allows him to release the ball that much closer to homeplate and it allows him to bring his right arm down as far behind his hip as he does without being late because the stride length allows him more time to get the arm up.
And now I am beginning to wonder if you have ever seen Matt Cain pitch. Cain has the tendency to “step over” something at the end of his stride, meaning that he actually does seem to increase his stride length by a few inches at the last possible moment. This creates the illusion of jumping at the hitter. Cain is much, much less pronounced than Lincecum. But Cain has a much shorter arm action than Lincecum does, and he does not get anywhere near the same torso rotation that Lincecum does. His leg kick is much lower and is almost entirely straight up and down, rather than toward second base like Lincecum. They also release the ball from different arm slots.
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Off the top of my head I would say Tim Lincecum has the BEST mechanics I have ever seen. Regardless of weather there are a few others out there with better mechanics, everyone who knows baseball would describe his delivery as fantastic. [/quote]
Lincecum does indeed have good mechanics. I think it’s a stretch to say that he has the BEST mechanics (I think Cliff Lee and Matt Cain have some of the best mechanics in the game), but they are very good. Even when his landing foot comes down, technically he isn’t really in a great position to throw, regarding his throwing arm, but he compensates with his huge stride toward the plate and the fact that he can keep his lead shoulder pointed toward the hitter for so long. So even though his arm is “late” the rest of his body allows for it to drag a little behind by providing extra torque that helps pull the arm through with less strain than it would otherwise.
[/quote]
The only thing I’d like to see different from Lincecum is a little shorter stride but with still having the excessive jump he has off the rubber. This would allow him to have a little more rotational force around a stiffer front leg. I think his is bent a little too much (Professor X, this is a baseball discussion if you’re starting to get a little uncomfortable hearing words like ‘bent’ and ‘stiffer’ being use together) but what the hell do I know I’m sitting at this desk and he’s Tim Fucking Lincecum.
I checked a video of Matt Cain. His delivery is a carbon copy of TL except his stride is a normal length and he doesn’t leap off the rubber.
[/quote]
I never said Lincecum did not have the best machanics. For someone of his size ans stature to throw a 95+ heater you have to have mechanics that allow you tt transfer nearly every ouce of weight into the baseball. Is that regard, yes he may well have the best mechanics.
What I said was that he is not “mechanically sound” in the way coaches teach mechanics. VERY few coaches actually teach someone to counter-rotate as far as Lincecum and begin opening up the hips before footplant. My point was that someone saying that Sheen can’t throw 85 because they are not “mechanically sound” is bullshit, because mechanics are justified by the result, and mechanics are subjective for most.
I dont understand why people care if an actor used steroids several years ago? much less a washed up drug addict actor like charlie sheen?
I know more than a few guys who use/have used steroids and look like crap lol. Just cause you’re popping a pill or getting an injection doesnt mean you’re going to look good or be strong.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
I only read the first 2 and last 2 paragraphs of your post. I was under the impression you were in agreement with cuban32’s assessment of Bautista. Am I wrong?
In regards to adding velocity to a pitcher would you say it’s much easier to add MPH at lower speeds than at Major League type velocity? Is increasing your fastball from 85 to 91 exponentially more difficult than getting it to go from 79 to 85? The reason I consider it possible Sheen isn’t lying is because his end result was still a mediocre velocity by MLB standards.
I don’t disagree that he could be bullshitting for publicity, either it’s working since we’re talking about him heh.[/quote]
I could care less about Bautista. He plays on an irrelevant team in an irrelevant city. It would not surprise me if he was using HGH since it can help you track the ball much better and HGH in moderation, without using testable banned substances, won’t result in a huge size gain. But an increase in production of his magnitude isn’t evidence of anything other than an increase in production. It’s pointless to engage in this discussion unless there is some actual, credible evidence linking him to steroid use.
As for Sheen, yes, 85mph is well below the average Major League fastball. But Sheen is not an MLBer, so why Sheen is being held to MLB standards on your part makes zero sense. 85mph is still pretty hard at the non-professional level, especially for someone who doesn’t play competitively. The point is that if Sheen can pick up a baseball out of nowhere and go from 79 to 85mph in 6-8 weeks after having not played competitively since high school (meaning he hasn’t been playing OR practicing) that means he must have much more room to put more velocity on his fastball.
I have a friend who played in the minors for the Reds for a few seasons. He was a pitcher and threw right around 90mph. He retired after his wife got pregnant and it was clear he wasn’t moving out of A-ball anytime soon. To my knowledge, he doesn’t play at all anymore. He’s only 29, so I’m sure if he got back into shape he could get to 85mph pretty quickly. But that is because it does not represent the limit of his arm strength. His limit is 90. And he certainly isn’t going to be able to go from wherever he’s at now to his full potential in 6-8 weeks. Am I making sense here?
[/quote]
It does not say how long Sheen actually practised his pitching for this role, it just said he juiced for 6-8 weeks and during that period his velocity increased 6mph. For all we know he could’ve spent months working on his pitching and simply experienced the velocity increase while juicing.
I’m comparing him to Major League standards because below that level feats are much more attainable and thus more likely to have occurred.
Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, he could be bullshitting but I think there’s a decent possibility he’s telling the truth.
[/quote]
Feats and accomplishments below the Major League level are very hard to attain, for someone who isn’t a professional athlete. Just because 90mph isn’t that big of a deal in the bigs doesn’t mean that 85mph is nothing. That’s probably about the average fastball in DI baseball. Is it impossible for Sheen to hit that speed, or even higher? No, but possible and probable are two totally different things. Given the fact that Sheen has been a worthless drug addict, woman-beater, alcoholic, heavy smoker, didn’t play competitively for years previous to filming the movie and the fact that he is a totally untrustworthy person leads me to believe that anyone who believes his claims about his fastball either are infatuated with Sheen or know nothing about pitching. Which one are you?[/quote]
Neither.
The fact that he played baseball at a high level, could’ve spent months practising his pitching while receiving expert coaching and taking steroids makes me believe the probability of his claims being true aren’t as slim as you assert. Not to mention the guy was also offered a baseball scholarship which he turned down. He has always been a baseball fanatic his whole life. I wouldn’t be surprised he always kept his baseball abilities in decent shape at all times.
As well the known cases of of his woman beating and drug abuse all took place after the release of Major League. You have no idea what he was like in his 20’s.
[/quote]
I guess you didn’t see that clip of him playing catch in his front yard a while back.
You’re right, I have no clue what he was like back then. But to think that it is more likely that he was clean and sober and working out all the time and honing his baseball skills, given what we now know about his drug abuse and alcoholism, you’d have to be pretty naive to think that something along those lines wasn’t going on when he was young, rich and in the prime of his movie career.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Also, a mechanically-sound delivery is EXTREMELY important when teams scout pitchers. In fact, it’s arguably more important than results. EVERY pitcher a team scouts in high school and college is getting results. They want pitchers with good mechanics because good mechanics represent a high likelihood of remaining injury free, the ability to pitch deep into games and the ability to repeat the motion and remain in the strike zone. A pitcher with poor mechanics is a project, and teams don’t mind projects, but they don’t take them in the early rounds because they aren’t going to invest that much into fixing a guy’s motion when there are plenty of hard throwers who have good motions already.
When Lincecum was drafted he wasn’t 95+, he was more like 97+. He got the best results of any pitcher in college baseball the year he was drafted. He won the Golden Spikes Award for the best player in ALL of college baseball. Why did he slip down to the 10th pick? His build and delivery. But his delivery is just unorthodox, and that combined with his size scared off 9 different teams who are kicking themselves in the ass right now.[/quote]
Complete bullshit. Scouts want a 95+ heater over mechanics. They will feel it is much easier and logical to teach someone with a 95 heater better mechanics than to teach someone with an 85 heater to throw faster. You can’t teach heat. VERY FEW if any get drafted with an 80 mile and hour heater with supposedly “great mechanics.” unless they are a lefty, still very rare.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
[/quote]
Also, a mechanically-sound delivery is EXTREMELY important when teams scout pitchers. In fact, it’s arguably more important than results. EVERY pitcher a team scouts in high school and college is getting results. They want pitchers with good mechanics because good mechanics represent a high likelihood of remaining injury free, the ability to pitch deep into games and the ability to repeat the motion and remain in the strike zone. A pitcher with poor mechanics is a project, and teams don’t mind projects, but they don’t take them in the early rounds because they aren’t going to invest that much into fixing a guy’s motion when there are plenty of hard throwers who have good motions already.
When Lincecum was drafted he wasn’t 95+, he was more like 97+. He got the best results of any pitcher in college baseball the year he was drafted. He won the Golden Spikes Award for the best player in ALL of college baseball. Why did he slip down to the 10th pick? His build and delivery. But his delivery is just unorthodox, and that combined with his size scared off 9 different teams who are kicking themselves in the ass right now.[/quote]
Complete bullshit. Scouts want a 95+ heater over mechanics. They will feel it is much easier and logical to teach someone with a 95 heater better mechanics than to teach someone with an 85 heater to throw faster. You can’t teach heat. VERY FEW if any get drafted with an 80 mile and hour heater with supposedly “great mechanics.” unless they are a lefty, still very rare.
[/quote]
This is true. Just look how far and how much money BJ Ryan earned in Major Leagues. His mechanics were trash and did eventually catch up to him, but his performance on the field earned him a huge contract before they did.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
There are plenty people that throw 85+ with a less than “mechanically-sound” delivery. Tim Lincecum and Kevin Appier to name a few. Teams care more about results than whether someone is “mechanically-sound.” No way would a team want someone with Lincecum’s build and delivery if he didn’t have 95mph heat to back it up. I believe the claim Sheen threw 85.
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Off the top of my head I would say Tim Lincecum has the BEST mechanics I have ever seen. Regardless of weather there are a few others out there with better mechanics, everyone who knows baseball would describe his delivery as fantastic. [/quote]
Lincecum does indeed have good mechanics. I think it’s a stretch to say that he has the BEST mechanics (I think Cliff Lee and Matt Cain have some of the best mechanics in the game), but they are very good. Even when his landing foot comes down, technically he isn’t really in a great position to throw, regarding his throwing arm, but he compensates with his huge stride toward the plate and the fact that he can keep his lead shoulder pointed toward the hitter for so long. So even though his arm is “late” the rest of his body allows for it to drag a little behind by providing extra torque that helps pull the arm through with less strain than it would otherwise.
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The only thing I’d like to see different from Lincecum is a little shorter stride but with still having the excessive jump he has off the rubber. This would allow him to have a little more rotational force around a stiffer front leg. I think his is bent a little too much (Professor X, this is a baseball discussion if you’re starting to get a little uncomfortable hearing words like ‘bent’ and ‘stiffer’ being use together) but what the hell do I know I’m sitting at this desk and he’s Tim Fucking Lincecum.
I checked a video of Matt Cain. His delivery is a carbon copy of TL except his stride is a normal length and he doesn’t leap off the rubber.
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I never said Lincecum did not have the best machanics. For someone of his size ans stature to throw a 95+ heater you have to have mechanics that allow you tt transfer nearly every ouce of weight into the baseball. Is that regard, yes he may well have the best mechanics.
What I said was that he is not “mechanically sound” in the way coaches teach mechanics. VERY few coaches actually teach someone to counter-rotate as far as Lincecum and begin opening up the hips before footplant. My point was that someone saying that Sheen can’t throw 85 because they are not “mechanically sound” is bullshit, because mechanics are justified by the result, and mechanics are subjective for most.[/quote]
You have no clue what you are talking about.
Lincecum’s hips open up at the right time and pitching coaches teach to lead with the hip as you drive down the mound and toward the plate. If you do this, when the hips open up doesn’t matter that much as long as it isn’t super early or super late, neither of which Lincecum is. As far as counter-rotation, pitching coaches don’t teach that because of the extreme athletic ability required to do so, and if you CAN do so, then you should, because it is mechanically-sound.
There are plenty of pitcher out there with good mechanics that aren’t taught. Kevin Brown, Lincecum and Appier all had/have unorthodox mechanics that aren’t taught because most people don’t have the natural throwing motion to match that sort of motion. Pitching coaches teach certain cues and so forth that fit within the framework of a pitcher’s natural throwing motion.
If you look at virtually every pitcher in the bigs who has had some sustained success and an injury-free career, they may all have different motions, but there are certain things that are common amongst them all, and these are sound mechanics. They may execute them differently, but they all have balance during their legkick, they all separate their hands at a time and in a position that allows them to make their natural arm circle and get into the proper throwing slot in a natural way. Their strides are all typically about their body length and they all typically lead with the front hip. Some stand pretty upright and other really drop and drive toward the plate, but they all use this motion to generate momentum toward the plate.
As far as your comment about getting drafted on results, you’re an idiot. Of course a team is going to draft a guy throwing 95 with poor mechanics rather than a guy with good mechanics who throws 85. 85 isn’t even going to get you drafted and the only guy with an 80mph fastball who I can think of who was ever drafted high in recent memory is Noah Lowry, who I played with in college. If you throw 95 with bad mechanics and someone else throws 95 but with good mechanics, a team is going to take the guy with good mechanics every time and not put a whole lot of focus on results. That’s why Gerritt Cole was drafted first this year despite having a mediocre season at UCLA. He throws hard, but he also has great mechanics. Strasburg was an iffy pick in the sense that he had flawed mechanics that the Washington Nationals should have fixed much earlier. They didn’t and now their investment is tenuous. After guys like Kerry Wood and Mark Prior and now Strasburg, there is a renewed focus on mechanics and when Strasburg comes back you’ll see that his mechanics will be noticeably different.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
. . . [/quote]
I want to know what you have to say, but I’m not going to read a page long essay every time you try to make a single point. You are a smart dude, but can you please learn to write more succinctly? Part of being a good writer is the ability to be concise.
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This was directed at BodyGuard, who actually has an attention span, not you. So fuck off.[/quote]
Just how succinct this reply was made me laugh. I actually enjoy reading the fully fleshed out responses most of the time. I’d figure the only thing people would really complain about is when everybody just keeps hitting the quote button and you wind up with a page full of replies with actually very little you haven’t read already.