Catholicism - Heart and Soul of a Great Nation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

I would like to conclude with a few thoughts that the Holy Spirit put upon me while researching and reading Colossians. As the Christians and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are aware the the Book of Colossians was a letter written by Paul to the Church in Colosse. Paul wrote this book to combat the heresy that was taking root in the Church of Colosse brought about by the Gnostics. Gnostics (derived from the word for knowledge) claimed that they possessed privileged supernatural knowledge necessary for salvation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have used the verse Col 1:15 through out this thread. “He is the image of the invisible God.” Lets look a little farther into Col 2. In verse 9 it states “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” We Christians beleive that Jesus is fully man and fully God, and this verse backs it up. Jehovah’s Witnesses belveive that Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael, we will come back to this later. The Holy Spirit has shown in John 10:33 that the people believed that Jesus was stating that he was God, and now Paul an apostle has stated that Jesus is God. Lets keep moving on.

In this thread the Jehovah’s Witnesses have said it is unbiblical to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Verse 16 states, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” Sorry Jehovah’s Witnesses we can celebrate the birth and resurrection of Jesus.

Lets get back to Jesus being the Angel Michael. Through out the New Testament, and especially in Revelation it is clear that we are suppose to worship and give all praise and power to Jesus. Verse 18 now states, “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disquality you for the prize.” Sorry again Jehovah’s Witnesses you will be worshipping Jesus in the final days. If he is the Arch Angel Michael you will be doing as it is stats in verse 18 “worship of angels.” Lets keep on moving on in verse 18 and 19.

“Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grouws as God causes it to grow.” The Gnostics/ Jehovah’s Witnesses are separated from the Head, or Jesus Christ. I find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to recite verses, and take a huge amount of space to prove their one point. I apologize for my long post, but I would like to sum up this entire thread. I also find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to quote Colossians, and it is this very book that denounces their Modern Gnostic faith. You are free to beleive what you want, but in the end we will see who is correct. Keep on writing what you want, but the Holy Spirit and the warrior of the faith will be there to correct your heretic views of the Bible.

I pray that the Word of God opens the eyes, and softens the heart of everyone who reads it. “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

282

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I would like to conclude with a few thoughts that the Holy Spirit put upon me while researching and reading Colossians. As the Christians and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are aware the the Book of Colossians was a letter written by Paul to the Church in Colosse. Paul wrote this book to combat the heresy that was taking root in the Church of Colosse brought about by the Gnostics. Gnostics (derived from the word for knowledge) claimed that they possessed privileged supernatural knowledge necessary for salvation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have used the verse Col 1:15 through out this thread. “He is the image of the invisible God.” Lets look a little farther into Col 2. In verse 9 it states “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” We Christians beleive that Jesus is fully man and fully God, and this verse backs it up. Jehovah’s Witnesses belveive that Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael, we will come back to this later. The Holy Spirit has shown in John 10:33 that the people believed that Jesus was stating that he was God, and now Paul an apostle has stated that Jesus is God. Lets keep moving on.

In this thread the Jehovah’s Witnesses have said it is unbiblical to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Verse 16 states, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” Sorry Jehovah’s Witnesses we can celebrate the birth and resurrection of Jesus.

Lets get back to Jesus being the Angel Michael. Through out the New Testament, and especially in Revelation it is clear that we are suppose to worship and give all praise and power to Jesus. Verse 18 now states, “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disquality you for the prize.” Sorry again Jehovah’s Witnesses you will be worshipping Jesus in the final days. If he is the Arch Angel Michael you will be doing as it is stats in verse 18 “worship of angels.” Lets keep on moving on in verse 18 and 19.

“Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grouws as God causes it to grow.” The Gnostics/ Jehovah’s Witnesses are separated from the Head, or Jesus Christ. I find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to recite verses, and take a huge amount of space to prove their one point. I apologize for my long post, but I would like to sum up this entire thread. I also find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to quote Colossians, and it is this very book that denounces their Modern Gnostic faith. You are free to beleive what you want, but in the end we will see who is correct. Keep on writing what you want, but the Holy Spirit and the warrior of the faith will be there to correct your heretic views of the Bible.

I pray that the Word of God opens the eyes, and softens the heart of everyone who reads it. “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
[/quote]
No…don’t respond…stop it fingers…don’t do it…AAAHHH! Darn fingers! Sorry, I’ll get a handle on these fingers of mine.

For anyone following, can you see how the scriptures that people use to back the Trinity do not SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship by DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THE TWO? Colossians 2:9 does not do that and it does not mean God is Jesus. Dmaddox took the scripture out of context. Here is the full context of Colossians 2:8,9:
“8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Paul is warning the Christians to not be led astray by deceitful human philosophy and human tradition and not according to the things Jesus taught. Deity means god or goddess or divine character or nature. So yes Jesus being a mighty spirit being that existed in God’s form before he came to earth does have the full divine qualities in bodily form.

Dmaddox keeps stating John 10:33 as proof of the Trinity, because the Jews who had their minds and hearts blinded by God were about to stone Jesus because he said “I and the father are one,” and due to Jesus’ statement thought he was saying he was God. The Jews were clearly wrong. I stated in one of my earlier post that John 17:20-23 explains clearly what Jesus was talking about. Why would anyone share the belief of the BLINDED Jews?

In regards to celebrating holidays that have pagan origins. Paul stating at Colossians 2:16 to not let any man judge another in eating and drinking or respect of a festival or oberservance of the new moon or sabbath is not the same as celebrating holidays that originated from something bad. Paul gave this advice because Jews were under the restriction of the Mosaic Law and forbidden to eat and drink certain things. Jews who converted to Christianity were still holding on to the restrictions of the Mosaic Law and were offended when non-Jews would eat or drink food that was forbidden under the Mosaic Law. On the other had Christians who were not formally Jews were offended when the above former Jewish Christians would oberserve Jewish festivals such as the new moon celebration of observance of the sabbath. This was causing divisions in the Corinth congregation so Paul had to address the issue and ultimately let the Christians who formly were Jews know that the Mosaic Law was a shadow of the things to come and Jesus was the end of the Mosaic Law so it was no longer necessary to practice the Law. The point is that none of the Jewish festivals or celebrations came from PAGAN ORIGINS like most holidays today. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 makes it clear to not mix good things with bad things.

Now in regards to Jesus being the Archangel Michael in his heavenly position, before I explain how that’s possible know that the Bible mentions very little in regards to the heavenly realm. Only two angels names are mentioned in the Bible: Michael and Gabriel. Since Jesus is NOT God and the Bible makes it clear that he existed in God’s form prior to coming to earth he obviously was an angel. How do we identify Jesus in his heavenly position?
In the Bible at Jude 9 Michael is referred to as “the Archangel,” which means chief or principal angel. This title would apply to none other than God’s only begotten son and the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION (Colossians 1:15). Jesus is the foremost and most important angel in heaven. At Jude 9 he is called THE Archangel suggesting that there is one such angel. The term archangel only appears in the Bible in a singular form. Jesus which is Michael’s earthly name is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 4:6 states: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” So Jesus’ voice is going to be that of the chief or principal angel. So that scripture describes the voice of Jesus as being that of an archangel and suggest that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael. The Bible at Revelation 12:7 states that Michael and HIS angels battled the dragon and it’s angels. So Michael is the leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation 19:14-16 describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and his “powerful angels.” So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” Since God’s word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. The above is not the only evidence. Michael is also mentioned in Daniel but if I were to explain those acriptures as well this post would be too long even by my standards.

283

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I would like to conclude with a few thoughts that the Holy Spirit put upon me while researching and reading Colossians. As the Christians and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are aware the the Book of Colossians was a letter written by Paul to the Church in Colosse. Paul wrote this book to combat the heresy that was taking root in the Church of Colosse brought about by the Gnostics. Gnostics (derived from the word for knowledge) claimed that they possessed privileged supernatural knowledge necessary for salvation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have used the verse Col 1:15 through out this thread. “He is the image of the invisible God.” Lets look a little farther into Col 2. In verse 9 it states “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” We Christians beleive that Jesus is fully man and fully God, and this verse backs it up. Jehovah’s Witnesses belveive that Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael, we will come back to this later. The Holy Spirit has shown in John 10:33 that the people believed that Jesus was stating that he was God, and now Paul an apostle has stated that Jesus is God. Lets keep moving on.

In this thread the Jehovah’s Witnesses have said it is unbiblical to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Verse 16 states, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” Sorry Jehovah’s Witnesses we can celebrate the birth and resurrection of Jesus.

Lets get back to Jesus being the Angel Michael. Through out the New Testament, and especially in Revelation it is clear that we are suppose to worship and give all praise and power to Jesus. Verse 18 now states, “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disquality you for the prize.” Sorry again Jehovah’s Witnesses you will be worshipping Jesus in the final days. If he is the Arch Angel Michael you will be doing as it is stats in verse 18 “worship of angels.” Lets keep on moving on in verse 18 and 19.

“Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grouws as God causes it to grow.” The Gnostics/ Jehovah’s Witnesses are separated from the Head, or Jesus Christ. I find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to recite verses, and take a huge amount of space to prove their one point. I apologize for my long post, but I would like to sum up this entire thread. I also find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to quote Colossians, and it is this very book that denounces their Modern Gnostic faith. You are free to beleive what you want, but in the end we will see who is correct. Keep on writing what you want, but the Holy Spirit and the warrior of the faith will be there to correct your heretic views of the Bible.

I pray that the Word of God opens the eyes, and softens the heart of everyone who reads it. “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
[/quote]
No…don’t respond…stop it fingers…don’t do it…AAAHHH! Darn fingers! Sorry, I’ll get a handle on these fingers of mine.

For anyone following, can you see how the scriptures that people use to back the Trinity do not SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship by DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THE TWO? Colossians 2:9 does not do that and it does not mean God is Jesus. Dmaddox took the scripture out of context. Here is the full context of Colossians 2:8,9:
“8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Paul is warning the Christians to not be led astray by deceitful human philosophy and human tradition and not according to the things Jesus taught. Deity means god or goddess or divine character or nature. So yes Jesus being a mighty spirit being that existed in God’s form before he came to earth does have the full divine qualities in bodily form.

Dmaddox keeps stating John 10:33 as proof of the Trinity, because the Jews who had their minds and hearts blinded by God were about to stone Jesus because he said “I and the father are one,” and due to Jesus’ statement thought he was saying he was God. The Jews were clearly wrong. I stated in one of my earlier post that John 17:20-23 explains clearly what Jesus was talking about. Why would anyone share the belief of the BLINDED Jews?

In regards to celebrating holidays that have pagan origins. Paul stating at Colossians 2:16 to not let any man judge another in eating and drinking or respect of a festival or oberservance of the new moon or sabbath is not the same as celebrating holidays that originated from something bad. Paul gave this advice because Jews were under the restriction of the Mosaic Law and forbidden to eat and drink certain things. Jews who converted to Christianity were still holding on to the restrictions of the Mosaic Law and were offended when non-Jews would eat or drink food that was forbidden under the Mosaic Law. On the other had Christians who were not formally Jews were offended when the above former Jewish Christians would oberserve Jewish festivals such as the new moon celebration of observance of the sabbath. This was causing divisions in the Corinth congregation so Paul had to address the issue and ultimately let the Christians who formly were Jews know that the Mosaic Law was a shadow of the things to come and Jesus was the end of the Mosaic Law so it was no longer necessary to practice the Law. The point is that none of the Jewish festivals or celebrations came from PAGAN ORIGINS like most holidays today. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 makes it clear to not mix good things with bad things.

Now in regards to Jesus being the Archangel Michael in his heavenly position, before I explain how that’s possible know that the Bible mentions very little in regards to the heavenly realm. Only two angels names are mentioned in the Bible: Michael and Gabriel. Since Jesus is NOT God and the Bible makes it clear that he existed in God’s form prior to coming to earth he obviously was an angel. How do we identify Jesus in his heavenly position?
In the Bible at Jude 9 Michael is referred to as “the Archangel,” which means chief or principal angel. This title would apply to none other than God’s only begotten son and the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION (Colossians 1:15). Jesus is the foremost and most important angel in heaven. At Jude 9 he is called THE Archangel suggesting that there is one such angel. The term archangel only appears in the Bible in a singular form. Jesus which is Michael’s earthly name is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 4:6 states: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” So Jesus’ voice is going to be that of the chief or principal angel. So that scripture describes the voice of Jesus as being that of an archangel and suggest that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael. The Bible at Revelation 12:7 states that Michael and HIS angels battled the dragon and it’s angels. So Michael is the leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation 19:14-16 describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and his “powerful angels.” So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” Since God’s word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. The above is not the only evidence. Michael is also mentioned in Daniel but if I were to explain those acriptures as well this post would be too long even by my standards.[/quote]

Continue to puff up your mind with your idle notions. So Jesus was in God form prior to coming to Earth, but he is not God? These are your own words. So what about God and his Angels? Wouldn’t God/Jehovah and “his angels”, or because it does not say that in the Bible the angels are not his? You are stretching so far with your New Knowledge, and worshipping of Angels, even though it is just a resurgence of the old Gnostics. Even a guy who only posted once in this thread called you agnostic. Keep letting your fingers do the talking. They just continue to dig your hole deeper and deeper. We will see at Judgement Day who is correct. Once you are able to interpret the Bible as the people it was orginally wrote for, we can discuss this more. They claim he is God, but you continue to listen to your Gnostic teachers guided by Jehovah’s Active Force. I like that term, it makes me laugh. Your book is different from the Bible. Maybe you should pick up a book on the Gnostics, and you will see your theology is based on their teachings. Then reread Colossians and see the truth.

Honest_Lifter mentioned that I was “blinded by Satan.” Since you did not disagree logic tells me that you agree. Just so you know, Satan only attacks those that love the Lord as found in the entire book of Job. So I guess I am hitting the nail on the head pretty good, since I am being attacked by Satan. Have a good life and may God reveal to you the Truth. Jesus says, “depart from me I never knew you.” The words that no Christian never wants to hear.

284

2 Corinthians 4:3,4

“If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”

To once again identify “the god of this system of things” as Satan:

1 John 5:19

“We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

You see, Satan attacks the true followers of Jehovah and His son Jesus. Jesus warned His disciples of this. However, he has “blinded the minds of the unbelievers”. Two very different meanings, attack and blind.

285

May God have mercy on you 2 and the followers of the Gnostic Religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses, as God has shown Mercy and Grace to me and the followers of Christianity.

As we have seen through this thread The basis of both Religions hinges on whether Jesus is God. We will find out at Judgement day who is correct. Again I hope that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit the Triune God accepts your works as worthy. I will rely on the sacrifice God showed me at the cross as my righteousness.

286

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I would like to conclude with a few thoughts that the Holy Spirit put upon me while researching and reading Colossians. As the Christians and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are aware the the Book of Colossians was a letter written by Paul to the Church in Colosse. Paul wrote this book to combat the heresy that was taking root in the Church of Colosse brought about by the Gnostics. Gnostics (derived from the word for knowledge) claimed that they possessed privileged supernatural knowledge necessary for salvation.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have used the verse Col 1:15 through out this thread. “He is the image of the invisible God.” Lets look a little farther into Col 2. In verse 9 it states “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” We Christians beleive that Jesus is fully man and fully God, and this verse backs it up. Jehovah’s Witnesses belveive that Jesus is the Arch Angel Michael, we will come back to this later. The Holy Spirit has shown in John 10:33 that the people believed that Jesus was stating that he was God, and now Paul an apostle has stated that Jesus is God. Lets keep moving on.

In this thread the Jehovah’s Witnesses have said it is unbiblical to celebrate Christmas and Easter. Verse 16 states, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” Sorry Jehovah’s Witnesses we can celebrate the birth and resurrection of Jesus.

Lets get back to Jesus being the Angel Michael. Through out the New Testament, and especially in Revelation it is clear that we are suppose to worship and give all praise and power to Jesus. Verse 18 now states, “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disquality you for the prize.” Sorry again Jehovah’s Witnesses you will be worshipping Jesus in the final days. If he is the Arch Angel Michael you will be doing as it is stats in verse 18 “worship of angels.” Lets keep on moving on in verse 18 and 19.

“Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grouws as God causes it to grow.” The Gnostics/ Jehovah’s Witnesses are separated from the Head, or Jesus Christ. I find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to recite verses, and take a huge amount of space to prove their one point. I apologize for my long post, but I would like to sum up this entire thread. I also find it ironic how the Jehovah’s Witnesses love to quote Colossians, and it is this very book that denounces their Modern Gnostic faith. You are free to beleive what you want, but in the end we will see who is correct. Keep on writing what you want, but the Holy Spirit and the warrior of the faith will be there to correct your heretic views of the Bible.

I pray that the Word of God opens the eyes, and softens the heart of everyone who reads it. “Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”
[/quote]
No…don’t respond…stop it fingers…don’t do it…AAAHHH! Darn fingers! Sorry, I’ll get a handle on these fingers of mine.

For anyone following, can you see how the scriptures that people use to back the Trinity do not SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship by DISTINGUISHING BETWEEN THE TWO? Colossians 2:9 does not do that and it does not mean God is Jesus. Dmaddox took the scripture out of context. Here is the full context of Colossians 2:8,9:
“8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Paul is warning the Christians to not be led astray by deceitful human philosophy and human tradition and not according to the things Jesus taught. Deity means god or goddess or divine character or nature. So yes Jesus being a mighty spirit being that existed in God’s form before he came to earth does have the full divine qualities in bodily form.

Dmaddox keeps stating John 10:33 as proof of the Trinity, because the Jews who had their minds and hearts blinded by God were about to stone Jesus because he said “I and the father are one,” and due to Jesus’ statement thought he was saying he was God. The Jews were clearly wrong. I stated in one of my earlier post that John 17:20-23 explains clearly what Jesus was talking about. Why would anyone share the belief of the BLINDED Jews?

In regards to celebrating holidays that have pagan origins. Paul stating at Colossians 2:16 to not let any man judge another in eating and drinking or respect of a festival or oberservance of the new moon or sabbath is not the same as celebrating holidays that originated from something bad. Paul gave this advice because Jews were under the restriction of the Mosaic Law and forbidden to eat and drink certain things. Jews who converted to Christianity were still holding on to the restrictions of the Mosaic Law and were offended when non-Jews would eat or drink food that was forbidden under the Mosaic Law. On the other had Christians who were not formally Jews were offended when the above former Jewish Christians would oberserve Jewish festivals such as the new moon celebration of observance of the sabbath. This was causing divisions in the Corinth congregation so Paul had to address the issue and ultimately let the Christians who formly were Jews know that the Mosaic Law was a shadow of the things to come and Jesus was the end of the Mosaic Law so it was no longer necessary to practice the Law. The point is that none of the Jewish festivals or celebrations came from PAGAN ORIGINS like most holidays today. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 makes it clear to not mix good things with bad things.

Now in regards to Jesus being the Archangel Michael in his heavenly position, before I explain how that’s possible know that the Bible mentions very little in regards to the heavenly realm. Only two angels names are mentioned in the Bible: Michael and Gabriel. Since Jesus is NOT God and the Bible makes it clear that he existed in God’s form prior to coming to earth he obviously was an angel. How do we identify Jesus in his heavenly position?
In the Bible at Jude 9 Michael is referred to as “the Archangel,” which means chief or principal angel. This title would apply to none other than God’s only begotten son and the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION (Colossians 1:15). Jesus is the foremost and most important angel in heaven. At Jude 9 he is called THE Archangel suggesting that there is one such angel. The term archangel only appears in the Bible in a singular form. Jesus which is Michael’s earthly name is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ,
1 Thessalonians 4:6 states: “because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” So Jesus’ voice is going to be that of the chief or principal angel. So that scripture describes the voice of Jesus as being that of an archangel and suggest that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael. The Bible at Revelation 12:7 states that Michael and HIS angels battled the dragon and it’s angels. So Michael is the leader of an army of faithful angels. Revelation 19:14-16 describes Jesus as the Leader of an army of faithful angels. And the apostle Paul specifically mentions “the Lord Jesus” and his “powerful angels.” So the Bible speaks of both Michael and “his angels” and Jesus and “his angels.” Since God’s word nowhere indicates that there are two armies of faithful angels in heaven–one headed by Michael and one headed by Jesus–it is logical to conclude that Michael is none other than Jesus Christ in his heavenly role. The above is not the only evidence. Michael is also mentioned in Daniel but if I were to explain those acriptures as well this post would be too long even by my standards.[/quote]

Continue to puff up your mind with your idle notions. So Jesus was in God form prior to coming to Earth, but he is not God? These are your own words. You are stretching so far with your New Knowledge, and worshipping of Angels, even though it is just a resurgence of the old Gnostics. Even a guy who only posted once in this thread called you agnostic. Keep letting your fingers do the talking. They just continue to dig your hole deeper and deeper. We will see at Judgement Day who is correct. Once you are able to interpret the Bible as the people it was orginally wrote for, we can discuss this more. They claim he is God, but you continue to listen to your Gnostic teachers guided by Jehovah’s Active Force. I like that term, it makes me laugh. Your book is different from the Bible. Maybe you should pick up a book on the Gnostics, and you will see your theology is based on their teachings. Then reread Colossians and see the truth.

Honest_Lifter mentioned that I was “blinded by Satan.” Since you did not disagree logic tells me that you agree. Just so you know, Satan only attacks those that love the Lord as found in the entire book of Job. So I guess I am hitting the nail on the head pretty good, since I am being attacked by Satan. Have a good life and may God reveal to you the Truth. Jesus says, “depart from me I never knew you.” The words that no Christian never wants to hear. [/quote]
Jesus being in God’s form is not my words. These are the Bible’s words stated at Philippians 2:6. Jesus being in God’s form means that he was a spirit being like God and the rest of the angels. Satan and his demons exist in God’s form because they are spirit beings and originated in heaven. I’ll answer your question which states: “So what about God and his Angels? Wouldn’t God/Jehovah and “his angels”, or because it does not say that in the Bible the angels are not his?” Of course they are ultimately God’s but apparently since Michael is the chief or principle angel, God designated him chief or head of the angels. That is why God gave Michael along with his army of angels the task of removing Satan and his angels from heaven at Revelation 12:7, 10 & 12 and throw them to the vicinity of the earth.

As far as worshipping angels, where did you get that from? We follow who Jesus said to worship at Matthew 4:10 where he said “For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to HIM ALONE you must render sacred service.”
We worship God ALONE and recognized that Jesus is the second most important being in existence.

I’m an Agnostic because a “guy who only posted once in this thread” called me one. LOL! I’m the furthest from an Agnostic. Gnostic? Are you serious? I didn’t even know what a Gnostic was until I looked it up and I’m not even close to a Gnostic? You’re basing that on NOTHING.

My Bible is 99% the same as your Bible. But knowing people like to use the “your Bible is different from my Bible,” most of the scriptures I used was taken from Bible.com and I used the KIV, New Revised Standard Edition and the New American Bible.

As far as blinded goes don’t you know that the Bible states at Revelation 12:9 that Satan is “misleading the entire inhabited earth?” This harmonizes with what Jesus said at Matthew 7:13,14 about the broad and spacious road leading off to destruction and many are on it. Where as narrow is the gate and road leading off to life and few are the ones finding it. So according to the Bible FEW are on the road leading off to life. The few on the road leading off to life are of course God’s chosen people. In contrast, MOST of the world will be mislead and will be on the broad and spacious road.

EDIT: I meant to say NIV which stands for New International Version. My bad.

287

Can you guys not leave well enough alone? We will see in the future who is correct.

/thread

288

Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

289

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
I have been following this exchange and I must say it has been most enlightening. Thank you.[/quote]
I’m glad to hear that and I hope you can see which side is based on the Bible and which is not.

290

Lets now look at Mark 2:1-12 also reference in Matt 9:2-8 and Luke 5:18-26.

Jesus forgives the sins of the Paralytic. Lets look at verse 7 “Why does the fellow talk like that? he’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Good question. Look at verse 8 “Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they wer thinking in their hearts.” Who knows what is in a man’s heart other than God? Psalms 94:11 “The Lord knows the thoughts of Man.” Again Jesus proves he is God.

You ask the question why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus in John 10:33? It is not because he claims to be one with God, but if you would have read earilier in the Chapter they were already questioning whether he was a demon or the Christ. They even asked him directly if he was the Christ. Did he say yes? No he did not he had already told them that he was the Christ. Then he hits them with “I and the Father are One.”

May the Word of the Lord open your eyes to the truth. Come into the Light for I am in the Light.

291

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]wimpuskhan wrote:
I have been following this exchange and I must say it has been most enlightening. Thank you.[/quote]
I’m glad to hear that and I hope you can see which side is based on the Bible and which is not.[/quote]

Another great example of puffing up your mind. Pride comes before the fall my friend.

292

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”

293

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets now look at Mark 2:1-12 also reference in Matt 9:2-8 and Luke 5:18-26.

Jesus forgives the sins of the Paralytic. Lets look at verse 7 “Why does the fellow talk like that? he’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Good question. Look at verse 8 “Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they wer thinking in their hearts.” Who knows what is in a man’s heart other than God? Psalms 94:11 “The Lord knows the thoughts of Man.” Again Jesus proves he is God.

You ask the question why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus in John 10:33? It is not because he claims to be one with God, but if you would have read earilier in the Chapter they were already questioning whether he was a demon or the Christ. They even asked him directly if he was the Christ. Did he say yes? No he did not he had already told them that he was the Christ. Then he hits them with “I and the Father are One.”

May the Word of the Lord open your eyes to the truth. Come into the Light for I am in the Light.[/quote]
Wow, I see you’re really trying hard. I answered that question already in one my earlier post as to how Jesus can read the thoughts of others. I think Cueball asked it. God’s Holy Spirit that descended on Jesus in the form of a dove during his baptism gave Jesus the power to be able to read people’s thoughts. Plain and simple. Just like God’s holy spirit enabled the apostles and disciples of the first century congregation to perform miracles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about in your last paragraph. I didn’t ask why the Jews wanted to stone Jesus, if you read the verses it’s clear why. Your statement that it is not because Jesus said I and the father is one is incorrect. Right after Jesus states that the Jews pick up stones to stone him. At John 10:24-26 Jesus plainly said that he told them he was the Christ but they did not believe. Why didn’t they believe? Because at John 10:26 Jesus said that they were not his sheep. So it is clear that these Jews did not believe Jesus and would not have understood what Jesus was talking about when he said he was one with his father. Why you use their wrong thinking to back the Trinity belief is beyond me.

Now explain the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Or 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”

Or Hebrews 10:12 which states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,”

Every time I mention these scriptures you’re silent. What else can these scriptures mean other than Jesus is clearly not God and in a lesser position?

294

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”[/quote]

I love how you use certain translations of the Bible that fit your doctine. If you are going to use a translation of the Bible you have to use the entire Translation of the Bible. All Christian Bibles, including Catholic, and Protestant Bibles say in John 1:1 that the Word was God. You do not deny that the Word is Jesus. You have gone along with that one from the very begining. I find it amazing how the Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, than the people that actually knew those languages, and understood them more than you or I could ever imagine. You keep bringing up all these different parts of the Bible to say what you want it to say. But when you see that Jesus is God in human flesh all your questions are answered, and your eyes will be opened.

You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you either. We are going to have to wait, and then stand before God and see what he says.

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.

295

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”[/quote]

I love how you use certain translations of the Bible that fit your doctine. If you are going to use a translation of the Bible you have to use the entire Translation of the Bible. All Christian Bibles, including Catholic, and Protestant Bibles say in John 1:1 that the Word was God. You do not deny that the Word is Jesus. You have gone along with that one from the very begining. I find it amazing how the Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, than the people that actually knew those languages, and understood them more than you or I could ever imagine. You keep bringing up all these different parts of the Bible to say what you want it to say. But when you see that Jesus is God in human flesh all your questions are answered, and your eyes will be opened.

You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you either. We are going to have to wait, and then stand before God and see what he says.

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]

It doesn’t answer all your questions if Jesus is God. In fact, it makes reconciling the scriptures that mse2us put up impossible.

Also, you would be hard pressed to reconcile the following scripture either:

John 1:18

“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

296

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”[/quote]

I love how you use certain translations of the Bible that fit your doctine. If you are going to use a translation of the Bible you have to use the entire Translation of the Bible. All Christian Bibles, including Catholic, and Protestant Bibles say in John 1:1 that the Word was God. You do not deny that the Word is Jesus. You have gone along with that one from the very begining. I find it amazing how the Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, than the people that actually knew those languages, and understood them more than you or I could ever imagine. You keep bringing up all these different parts of the Bible to say what you want it to say. But when you see that Jesus is God in human flesh all your questions are answered, and your eyes will be opened.

You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you either. We are going to have to wait, and then stand before God and see what he says.

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]

It doesn’t answer all your questions if Jesus is God. In fact, it makes reconciling the scriptures that mse2us put up impossible.

Also, you would be hard pressed to reconcile the following scripture either:

John 1:18

“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

[/quote]

What? Your translation is a little out there. Seems like you have multiple gods. You may not worship them, but you have multiple gods.

John 1:18

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Jesus is the one who has made him known. Jesus has seen God because he has always been. The Word was with God, and the Word is God, as stated in John 1:1. Seems to reconcile to me.

I am trying to offer a peace offering, to stop this debate that neither of us will be able to win. If you continue on in this manner I will have to assume that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not care about peace. Which is in stark contrast to

Matt 5:9

9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

297

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”[/quote]

I love how you use certain translations of the Bible that fit your doctine. If you are going to use a translation of the Bible you have to use the entire Translation of the Bible. All Christian Bibles, including Catholic, and Protestant Bibles say in John 1:1 that the Word was God. You do not deny that the Word is Jesus. You have gone along with that one from the very begining. I find it amazing how the Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, than the people that actually knew those languages, and understood them more than you or I could ever imagine. You keep bringing up all these different parts of the Bible to say what you want it to say. But when you see that Jesus is God in human flesh all your questions are answered, and your eyes will be opened.

You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you either. We are going to have to wait, and then stand before God and see what he says.

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]

It doesn’t answer all your questions if Jesus is God. In fact, it makes reconciling the scriptures that mse2us put up impossible.

Also, you would be hard pressed to reconcile the following scripture either:

John 1:18

“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”

[/quote]

What? Your translation is a little out there. Seems like you have multiple gods. You may not worship them, but you have multiple gods.

John 1:18

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

Jesus is the one who has made him known. Jesus has seen God because he has always been. The Word was with God, and the Word is God, as stated in John 1:1. Seems to reconcile to me.

I am trying to offer a peace offering, to stop this debate that neither of us will be able to win. If you continue on in this manner I will have to assume that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not care about peace. Which is in stark contrast to

Matt 5:9

9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

[/quote]

And this is the problem with the scripture only approach. Same words interpreted differently to mean different things. Further, because there are contradictions and paradoxes, one is often force to choose one nugget of scripture over another, but which is right?
This is why I say the evangelical and the apostolic traditions have a lot to gain by joining together and learning from each other.

As for the less traditional sects, the differences are to fundamental to reconcile, but the numbers are so few it may not matter. I do have a problem with the revisionist history that some have participated in. Revisionist history is lying, know your roots, there is no need to make it different than it actually was. If you have to change history to validate your faith, I question it’s validity. This is about seeking truth not making lies to suit ourselves, that’s pointless.
Why don’t we agree we all love God and we can move on. Scripture wars are going no where…

298

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Guys, I thought I would look up how many verses you have used to co through to prove your point. I would say 8-10. Not many. Every verse I use, your only 3 comebacks are you are “Blinded by Satan,” “the people must have been confused, and there are other versions of the Bible that say what our translation says.” I can use those to. The two translations other than your own have no significance. I have never heard of the KIV, and the New American Bible. What denomination uses those? Are they new translations of your Bible used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. If we look at the two verses that seem to have you guys in a tiffy, John 1:1 and John 10:33 every single translation on bible.cc shows that both verses claim that Jesus is God. Why should we all go by your Bible while all the Bibles used by Christians have been said “the Word was God,” and “claim to be God?” Are you saying that you guys know more about greek than the apostles?

Lets throw a new verse in there. John 20:28 where Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord, and My God!” You are going to come back with something whitty so lets hear it. Is it going to be that He talked to Jesus first then turned his head to Heaven and said the second, or is it going to be Thomas was so surprised that he stated something like OMG?

I have now proved that Jesus claimed to be God. The people, Jews, beleived it, and the apostles beleived it. Jesus is not second, but is God. I will wish you 2 well. Peace be to you, in my God and Savior, Jesus Christ. [/quote]
I never said you were blinded.

I have used at least fifteen scriptures in my post that SPECIFICALLY distinguish between God and Jesus. You keep using the same scriptures and NONE of them SPECIFICALLY DISTINGUISH between God and Jesus. John 10:33. Come on man! I haven’t called you blind but if you can’t understand this explanation then you truly are blind. Willingly blind as Cueball said. I’ll explain it one more time. Jesus said I and the father are ONE at John 10:30. When Jesus said that, the Jews did not understand what he meant so they charged him with claiming to be God. I’m not sure if you know this but Jesus was innocent of all the charges the Jews leveled at him. If Jesus claimed to be God then the Jews would have had a case against Jesus. But Jesus did not mean that he was the person he referred to as “MY Father.” Again, John 17:20-23 explains what Jesus meant by being ONE with his Father. The New American Bible which is the official Bible of the Catholic Church states:
“20 I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE. 23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, they are your gift to me. I wish that where I am they also may be with me, that they may see my glory that you gave me, because you loved me before the foundation of the world.”
Can you SEE that Jesus clearly explains what ONE means? He wanted his disciples to be UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT LIKE JESUS AND HIS FATHER ARE UNITED IN MIND AND THOUGHT. I’ve explained this so many times that I sound like a broken record. Again, the Jews were clearly mistaken when they heard Jesus make that statement. And why you can’t see that I don’t understand. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you just didn’t read the several post where I explained John 10:33 instead of reading them and willingly ignoring them. Can you see?

I stated that Thomas called Jesus my God in my earlier post. Here’s what you don’t get. John 20:28 does not specifically distinguish between God and Jesus like the MANY verses I quoted do. Now this verse does require further investigation to see why Thomas would call Jesus his god. But the Bible is clear when it states at 1 Corinthians 11:3 that God is the head of Christ and when the Bible states at 1 Corinthians 15:28 that Jesus will submit himself to God. So unless Paul while under God’s inspiration is lying, Thomas calling Jesus “My God” does not mean he is God Almighty. Like I stated before one being called a god does not mean God Almighty. Again, Satan is called a God at 2 Corinthians 4:4 and Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:1,2,6,7. The term god in the Bible can refer to anyone with power especially spirit beings. Isaiah 9:6,7 prophecied that Jesus would be called a god among other names. Isaiah 9:6,7 states:
“6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the PRINCELY rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Eternal Father, PRINCE OF PEACE. 7 To the abundance of the PRINCELY RULE and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.”

Can you see that this is a prophecy about Jesus? And do you notice he is called Mighty god and PRINCE of peace who will have a PRINCELY rule. So Thomas calling Jesus god is inline with this prophecy and the prophecy is clearly referring to Jesus.

I don’t have to come back with something witty to show from the Bible that the Trinity doctrine is not a Bible teaching. All I do is use reason from the scriptures.

So no you have not proved that Jesus claimed to be God because he didn’t. The Jews believing Jesus called himself God at John 10:33 does not mean Jesus is God. And no the apostles did not believe Jesus was God. This is what the apostle John believed which is stated at John 20:31 which states:
“But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the SON OF GOD, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.”[/quote]

I love how you use certain translations of the Bible that fit your doctine. If you are going to use a translation of the Bible you have to use the entire Translation of the Bible. All Christian Bibles, including Catholic, and Protestant Bibles say in John 1:1 that the Word was God. You do not deny that the Word is Jesus. You have gone along with that one from the very begining. I find it amazing how the Jehovah’s Witnesses know more about the Bible, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, than the people that actually knew those languages, and understood them more than you or I could ever imagine. You keep bringing up all these different parts of the Bible to say what you want it to say. But when you see that Jesus is God in human flesh all your questions are answered, and your eyes will be opened.

You are not going to convince me otherwise, and I am not going to convince you either. We are going to have to wait, and then stand before God and see what he says.

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]
We quote from different translations so that one can not say, “your Bible is different from mine.” or “that’s verse is not in my Bible.” Sound familiar? The New American Bible is the official Bible of the Catholic church and I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:24-18 from that Bible. When we can show someone what the Bible really teaches from their own translation of the Bible it has a more powerful effect.

Like I said before not all Bibles state that the Word was God. Moffatt’s Translation, The American Translation, The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Emphatic Diaglott and the New English Bible are four Bibles that do not state that the Word was God. The reason most religions use the Bible that state the Word was God is because most of them believe in the teaching.

Of course we could be friends and yes I’m friends with non-Witnesses. We sincerely care about people which is why we preach like we do. We genuinely feel for the people who’s religious beliefs are the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Because they aren’t taught about God’s Kingdom and that it’s the only salvation for mankind, the true condition of the dead and that we’re living in a period called the LAST DAYS. We want to reach the people who are fed up with their church because of scandal. Or people who read the Bible, see verses like Acts 24:15 where it states that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and think to themselves “how could that be because I was taught that the unrighteous will burn forever in Hell.”

I know that I won’t convince you or any other person who has been posting on this thread. I hope that there are people like I described in the above paragraph reading but not posting who can see that our teachings are solidly based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Again, Dmaddox-friend, Pat or anyone else please explain the three scriptures I listed in my previous post or the one that Honest_lifter quoted in his post and show from the Bible or any other source how those scriptures, which clearly address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and distinguish between the two, actually mean something other than God and Jesus not being two separate beings.

299

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]
We quote from different translations so that one can not say, “your Bible is different from mine.” or “that’s verse is not in my Bible.” Sound familiar? The New American Bible is the official Bible of the Catholic church and I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:24-18 from that Bible. When we can show someone what the Bible really teaches from their own translation of the Bible it has a more powerful effect.

Like I said before not all Bibles state that the Word was God. Moffatt’s Translation, The American Translation, The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Emphatic Diaglott and the New English Bible are four Bibles that do not state that the Word was God. The reason most religions use the Bible that state the Word was God is because most of them believe in the teaching.

Of course we could be friends and yes I’m friends with non-Witnesses. We sincerely care about people which is why we preach like we do. We genuinely feel for the people who’s religious beliefs are the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Because they aren’t taught about God’s Kingdom and that it’s the only salvation for mankind, the true condition of the dead and that we’re living in a period called the LAST DAYS. We want to reach the people who are fed up with their church because of scandal. Or people who read the Bible, see verses like Acts 24:15 where it states that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and think to themselves “how could that be because I was taught that the unrighteous will burn forever in Hell.”

I know that I won’t convince you or any other person who has been posting on this thread. I hope that there are people like I described in the above paragraph reading but not posting who can see that our teachings are solidly based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Again, Dmaddox-friend, Pat or anyone else please explain the three scriptures I listed in my previous post or the one that Honest_lifter quoted in his post and show from the Bible or any other source how those scriptures, which clearly address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and distinguish between the two, actually mean something other than God and Jesus not being two separate beings.[/quote]

I agree that we are closer now to the end of days than we were yesterday. I see the signs of the times. I agree that both will be resurrected, but then you get to the judgement thrown and then Jesus/God will either say, “depart from me I never knew you,” or “yours is the kingdom of heaven.”

Again I am going to ask about the translations of the Bible you are quoting. I have never heard of those before. I am not Catholic so using a Catholic translation really is not going to impress me. The Catholics are my Brothers, and Sisters, so I did look up all the verses I have quoted saying that Jesus is God, and all of them had the exact same translation as mine. I use the New International Version or NIV just so you know.

My answer to your verses is that when you see that Jesus is God, your answers are clear, and I stand by that. You can twist it however you want.

Might I ask, why do you focus on the people that are “fed up with their church because of scandal.” I would say that sounds a lot like

1 Peter 5:8

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

If you were to beleive what I am preaching/teaching what would happen to you by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am including your family?

300

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]
We quote from different translations so that one can not say, “your Bible is different from mine.” or “that’s verse is not in my Bible.” Sound familiar? The New American Bible is the official Bible of the Catholic church and I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:24-18 from that Bible. When we can show someone what the Bible really teaches from their own translation of the Bible it has a more powerful effect.

Like I said before not all Bibles state that the Word was God. Moffatt’s Translation, The American Translation, The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Emphatic Diaglott and the New English Bible are four Bibles that do not state that the Word was God. The reason most religions use the Bible that state the Word was God is because most of them believe in the teaching.

Of course we could be friends and yes I’m friends with non-Witnesses. We sincerely care about people which is why we preach like we do. We genuinely feel for the people who’s religious beliefs are the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Because they aren’t taught about God’s Kingdom and that it’s the only salvation for mankind, the true condition of the dead and that we’re living in a period called the LAST DAYS. We want to reach the people who are fed up with their church because of scandal. Or people who read the Bible, see verses like Acts 24:15 where it states that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and think to themselves “how could that be because I was taught that the unrighteous will burn forever in Hell.”

I know that I won’t convince you or any other person who has been posting on this thread. I hope that there are people like I described in the above paragraph reading but not posting who can see that our teachings are solidly based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Again, Dmaddox-friend, Pat or anyone else please explain the three scriptures I listed in my previous post or the one that Honest_lifter quoted in his post and show from the Bible or any other source how those scriptures, which clearly address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and distinguish between the two, actually mean something other than God and Jesus not being two separate beings.[/quote]

I agree that we are closer now to the end of days than we were yesterday. I see the signs of the times. I agree that both will be resurrected, but then you get to the judgement thrown and then Jesus/God will either say, “depart from me I never knew you,” or “yours is the kingdom of heaven.”

Again I am going to ask about the translations of the Bible you are quoting. I have never heard of those before. I am not Catholic so using a Catholic translation really is not going to impress me. The Catholics are my Brothers, and Sisters, so I did look up all the verses I have quoted saying that Jesus is God, and all of them had the exact same translation as mine. I use the New International Version or NIV just so you know.

My answer to your verses is that when you see that Jesus is God, your answers are clear, and I stand by that. You can twist it however you want.

Might I ask, why do you focus on the people that are “fed up with their church because of scandal.” I would say that sounds a lot like

1 Peter 5:8

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

If you were to beleive what I am preaching/teaching what would happen to you by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am including your family?[/quote]
The two scriptures you quoted John 1:1 and John 28:20 read the same in my Bible as well. I realize that three of the four translations I mentioned aren’t popular. My point was to show you that there are other translations besides the translation I use that state at John 1:1 that Jesus’ nature was the same as God’s; not that he was God Almighty. I also explained that due to the fact that there was not an indefinate article in the Greek language at that time translators mistakenly did not include the A after the WAS and before GOD. Later translators realized this and either included the indefinate article so that John 1:1 would read the Word was A God, or stated the nature of the Word by saying “what God was the Word was” or "the Word was divine. Once this change was made, John 1:1 then harmonized with the rest of the Bible that state Jesus was at God’s side before he came to earth which is stated at John 17:5 and that he existed in God’s form before he came to earth which is stated at Philippians 2:6. Unfortunately, when translators realized this and made the change the Trinity doctrine was already THEE major and official doctrine of both Catholics and Protestants. So it’s little wonder that those Bibles translations with the adjustment are rarely used or even known about. That’s why I asked that John 1:1 be excluded and for someone to show a scripture that specifically addresses Jesus and God’s relationship and states that they are the same. That has not been done.

I didn’t say we FOCUS on any group or type of people. When we knock on doors we don’t know who is behind that door. The first thing we hope for is that the person doesn’t shut the door in our face and if they don’t we hope that we can find people who are spiritually hungry. What I mean by spiritually hungry is that they have a relationship with God and read the Bible and see that there are verses that are the opposite of what they have been taught and because they see these verses they have questions. When we encounter people like this and can show them from their own copy of the Bible what those verses mean and can answer their questions by using their own Bible we hope that they’ll want to know more. If they want to know more we offer free home Bible studies where we will meet with that person for 1 hour per week at a time that’s convient for that person. At the Bible study we answer questions such as “Why does God permit suffering?”, “What will God’s Kingdom do for mankind?”,“Are we Living in the Last Day and when did it start?”. That, my friend doesn’t sound like we’re a roaring lion looking to devour someone. We’re the exact opposite. We show people from the Bible what they need to do to be in an approved relationship with God and what the Bible says is necessary to survive Armageddon. So we feel we are saving lives.

To answer your last question—If I were to believe what you were preaching I would no longer be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and that is it.