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301

Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnâ??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

302

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

Friends, or can you actually befriend a non-Jehovah’s Witness? Peace to you friend.[/quote]
We quote from different translations so that one can not say, “your Bible is different from mine.” or “that’s verse is not in my Bible.” Sound familiar? The New American Bible is the official Bible of the Catholic church and I quoted 1 Corinthians 15:24-18 from that Bible. When we can show someone what the Bible really teaches from their own translation of the Bible it has a more powerful effect.

Like I said before not all Bibles state that the Word was God. Moffatt’s Translation, The American Translation, The interlinear word-for-word reading of the Greek translation in the Emphatic Diaglott and the New English Bible are four Bibles that do not state that the Word was God. The reason most religions use the Bible that state the Word was God is because most of them believe in the teaching.

Of course we could be friends and yes I’m friends with non-Witnesses. We sincerely care about people which is why we preach like we do. We genuinely feel for the people who’s religious beliefs are the opposite of what the Bible teaches. Because they aren’t taught about God’s Kingdom and that it’s the only salvation for mankind, the true condition of the dead and that we’re living in a period called the LAST DAYS. We want to reach the people who are fed up with their church because of scandal. Or people who read the Bible, see verses like Acts 24:15 where it states that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and think to themselves “how could that be because I was taught that the unrighteous will burn forever in Hell.”

I know that I won’t convince you or any other person who has been posting on this thread. I hope that there are people like I described in the above paragraph reading but not posting who can see that our teachings are solidly based on the Bible and the Bible only.

Again, Dmaddox-friend, Pat or anyone else please explain the three scriptures I listed in my previous post or the one that Honest_lifter quoted in his post and show from the Bible or any other source how those scriptures, which clearly address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and distinguish between the two, actually mean something other than God and Jesus not being two separate beings.[/quote]

I agree that we are closer now to the end of days than we were yesterday. I see the signs of the times. I agree that both will be resurrected, but then you get to the judgement thrown and then Jesus/God will either say, “depart from me I never knew you,” or “yours is the kingdom of heaven.”

Again I am going to ask about the translations of the Bible you are quoting. I have never heard of those before. I am not Catholic so using a Catholic translation really is not going to impress me. The Catholics are my Brothers, and Sisters, so I did look up all the verses I have quoted saying that Jesus is God, and all of them had the exact same translation as mine. I use the New International Version or NIV just so you know.

My answer to your verses is that when you see that Jesus is God, your answers are clear, and I stand by that. You can twist it however you want.

Might I ask, why do you focus on the people that are “fed up with their church because of scandal.” I would say that sounds a lot like

1 Peter 5:8

Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

If you were to beleive what I am preaching/teaching what would happen to you by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am including your family?[/quote]
The two scriptures you quoted John 1:1 and John 28:20 read the same in my Bible as well. I realize that three of the four translations I mentioned aren’t popular. My point was to show you that there are other translations besides the translation I use that state at John 1:1 that Jesus’ nature was the same as God’s; not that he was God Almighty. I also explained that due to the fact that there was not an indefinate article in the Greek language at that time translators mistakenly did not include the A after the WAS and before GOD. Later translators realized this and either included the indefinate article so that John 1:1 would read the Word was A God, or stated the nature of the Word by saying “what God was the Word was” or "the Word was divine. Once this change was made, John 1:1 then harmonized with the rest of the Bible that state Jesus was at God’s side before he came to earth which is stated at John 17:5 and that he existed in God’s form before he came to earth which is stated at Philippians 2:6. Unfortunately, when translators realized this and made the change the Trinity doctrine was already THEE major and official doctrine of both Catholics and Protestants. So it’s little wonder that those Bibles translations with the adjustment are rarely used or even known about. That’s why I asked that John 1:1 be excluded and for someone to show a scripture that specifically addresses Jesus and God’s relationship and states that they are the same. That has not been done.

I didn’t say we FOCUS on any group or type of people. When we knock on doors we don’t know who is behind that door. The first thing we hope for is that the person doesn’t shut the door in our face and if they don’t we hope that we can find people who are spiritually hungry. What I mean by spiritually hungry is that they have a relationship with God and read the Bible and see that there are verses that are the opposite of what they have been taught and because they see these verses they have questions. When we encounter people like this and can show them from their own copy of the Bible what those verses mean and can answer their questions by using their own Bible we hope that they’ll want to know more. If they want to know more we offer free home Bible studies where we will meet with that person for 1 hour per week at a time that’s convient for that person. At the Bible study we answer questions such as “Why does God permit suffering?”, “What will God’s Kingdom do for mankind?”,“Are we Living in the Last Day and when did it start?”. That, my friend doesn’t sound like we’re a roaring lion looking to devour someone. We’re the exact opposite. We show people from the Bible what they need to do to be in an approved relationship with God and what the Bible says is necessary to survive Armageddon. So we feel we are saving lives.

To answer your last question—If I were to believe what you were preaching I would no longer be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and that is it.[/quote]

They are not popular, so then who uses them? I really want to know who uses them. Is it other people that follow the same thinking as you do, or are they mainstream Christians?

I always love the fact that you always say the later translators saw something new. Why was it later, was it because they had a new revealtion of God that no one else has? So the people that knew God/Jesus the best got it wrong, but the people of the 1900’s knew better what the Scripture was suppose to say? You have to be kidding right? New Knowledge.

And this is what you said, “We want to reach the people who are fed up with their church because of scandal.” Seems like you are trying to FOCUS on these people to me.

303

Lets just put Hebrews 1:5-14 (NIV) out there for everyone to look at.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]”[b]? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

How about the New King James Version of the Bible same verses.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

  â?? You are My Son,
  Today I have begotten Youâ???[a]

And again:

  â?? I will be to Him a Father,
  And He shall be to Me a Sonâ???[b]

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

  â?? Let all the angels of God worship Him.â??[c]

7 And of the angels He says:

  â?? Who makes His angels spirits
  And His ministers a flame of fire.â??[d]

8 But to the Son He says:

  â?? Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
  A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
   9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
  Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
  With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.â??[e]

10 And:

  â?? You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
  And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
   11 They will perish, but You remain;
  And they will all grow old like a garment;
   12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
  And they will be changed.
  But You are the same,
  And Your years will not fail.â??[f]

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:

  â?? Sit at My right hand,
  Till I make Your enemies Your footstoolâ???[g]

14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

304

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnâ??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]
I presented the same argument from Isaiah 6 and John 12 but hopefully your presentation of it is more clear than mine.

305

If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

306

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

[/quote]

I will answer your question about John 1:18. No one has seen the Father except Jesus who is in God’s bosom. What is the bosom? God’s Heart. “The Father and I are One” Pretty clear that Jesus and God are the same being. Which brings us back to John 1:1. This is a circle that still proves our point.

You will have to repost the verses that mse2us posted, because we must have glanced over them with his very long posts. No offense, but a lot of information and verses that we have to check the version used.

307

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

[/quote]

I will answer your question about John 1:18. No one has seen the Father except Jesus who is in God’s bosom. What is the bosom? God’s Heart. “The Father and I are One” Pretty clear that Jesus and God are the same being. Which brings us back to John 1:1. This is a circle that still proves our point.

You will have to repost the verses that mse2us posted, because we must have glanced over them with his very long posts. No offense, but a lot of information and verses that we have to check the version used.[/quote]

I don’t really understand your logic for John 1:18. So, you are either saying that no one saw Jesus while he was on earth, OR you are saying that Jesus lives inside God’s heart or is God’s heart. I can’t see another conclusion. “The Father and I are One” part has been covered to death, and its true meaning has been shown to be of one mind or thought, not of the same being. Please reread the previous posts for that. The context is VERY clear on that.

mse2us’ other scriptures:

1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”

Or Hebrews 10:12 which states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

308

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

[/quote]

I will answer your question about John 1:18. No one has seen the Father except Jesus who is in God’s bosom. What is the bosom? God’s Heart. “The Father and I are One” Pretty clear that Jesus and God are the same being. Which brings us back to John 1:1. This is a circle that still proves our point.

You will have to repost the verses that mse2us posted, because we must have glanced over them with his very long posts. No offense, but a lot of information and verses that we have to check the version used.[/quote]

I don’t really understand your logic for John 1:18. So, you are either saying that no one saw Jesus while he was on earth, OR you are saying that Jesus lives inside God’s heart or is God’s heart. I can’t see another conclusion. “The Father and I are One” part has been covered to death, and its true meaning has been shown to be of one mind or thought, not of the same being. Please reread the previous posts for that. The context is VERY clear on that.

mse2us’ other scriptures:

1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”

Or Hebrews 10:12 which states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
[/quote]

You asked my thoughts on the statement and I gave it. I am going to continue to use “I and the Father are One” till you understand it.

  1. 1 Cor 11:3 lets first look at verse 4 do your women wear hats to church? I look at verse 3 as another show of Jesus humbling himself before God. Jesus was Fully God and Fully Human. The Human part has to humble himself before God. Why do you think Jesus prayed the way he did in the Garden the night before the Crucifiction? His God side knew was about to come, but his Human side did not want to go through that type of pain.

2)You need to approach a Hebrew/Jew to understand what sitting at the right hand means. As seen in Hebrews 1:13 to which Angel did he ever ask to sit at his right hand? Jesus can not be an angel now can he?

  1. Again this is his human side handing over power to God.

Once you see that Jesus is fully Human and Fully God then everything becomes very clear. Let the Holy Spirit talk to you. He will reveal the truth.

309

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnâ??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.

310

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

[/quote]

I will answer your question about John 1:18. No one has seen the Father except Jesus who is in God’s bosom. What is the bosom? God’s Heart. “The Father and I are One” Pretty clear that Jesus and God are the same being. Which brings us back to John 1:1. This is a circle that still proves our point.

You will have to repost the verses that mse2us posted, because we must have glanced over them with his very long posts. No offense, but a lot of information and verses that we have to check the version used.[/quote]

I don’t really understand your logic for John 1:18. So, you are either saying that no one saw Jesus while he was on earth, OR you are saying that Jesus lives inside God’s heart or is God’s heart. I can’t see another conclusion. “The Father and I are One” part has been covered to death, and its true meaning has been shown to be of one mind or thought, not of the same being. Please reread the previous posts for that. The context is VERY clear on that.

mse2us’ other scriptures:

1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”

Or Hebrews 10:12 which states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
[/quote]

You asked my thoughts on the statement and I gave it. I am going to continue to use “I and the Father are One” till you understand it.

  1. 1 Cor 11:3 lets first look at verse 4 do your women wear hats to church? I look at verse 3 as another show of Jesus humbling himself before God. Jesus was Fully God and Fully Human. The Human part has to humble himself before God. Why do you think Jesus prayed the way he did in the Garden the night before the Crucifiction? His God side knew was about to come, but his Human side did not want to go through that type of pain.

2)You need to approach a Hebrew/Jew to understand what sitting at the right hand means. As seen in Hebrews 1:13 to which Angel did he ever ask to sit at his right hand? Jesus can not be an angel now can he?

  1. Again this is his human side handing over power to God.

Once you see that Jesus is fully Human and Fully God then everything becomes very clear. Let the Holy Spirit talk to you. He will reveal the truth.[/quote]
Those explanations are weak and false.

1)1 Corinthians 11:3 was written after Jesus went to heaven. When Paul wrote that verse Jesus was no longer a human. Also, if Jesus were equal to or the same as God why would he need to humble himself before God as a spirit being in heaven? That makes no sense. Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsamane because he WAS HUMAN but he also knew that his mission of him being sacrificed had to be fulfilled. He even says to his Father that his Fathers will should take place over his.

2)Why would I need to approach a Hebrew or a Jew to understand what sitting at the right hand means? Jesus in his heavenly position is higher than the angels and according to Romans 8:34 and the seven other scriptures I quoted in a previous post Jesus is at God’s right hand. Again, your explanation makes no sense.

3)Again 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is clearly talking about Jesus in his heavenly position. I’m not sure if you know this but you can not be a human and be in heaven. So no, this is not Jesus’ human side handing over power to God. This is Jesus handing over everything to his God and Father.

It’s funny how people who believe in the Trinity say that he was fully God in the flesh while on earth but when they see scriptures that state Jesus saying “The father is Greater than I am, (John 14:28)” or when he admits that he doesn’t have the authority to grant who will sit with him in his kingdom only God does (Matthew 20:23) they’re quick to say “well that’s the human Jesus talking.” But didn’t you just say he was God in the flesh. So I then say “well let’s see what happens when he no longer is a human and is back in heaven as a spirit being.” I then show him 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and they again say “well that’s his human side.” Even if I point out that you can’t be a human in heaven they still say “well that’s his human side.”

Can you see how the Trinity doctrine contradicts itself and makes no sense? Oh I forgot, people who believe in the Trinity are taught to put faith in the fact that it’s mysterious or beyond human understanding in other words they’re taught to put their faith in somethig that does not make sense.

311

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?

312

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you would please, can we address the scriptures that mse2us brought up about the direct relationship between Jesus and God? Also, the scripture that I brought up at John 1:18?

“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” - King James Version

http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm

[/quote]

I will answer your question about John 1:18. No one has seen the Father except Jesus who is in God’s bosom. What is the bosom? God’s Heart. “The Father and I are One” Pretty clear that Jesus and God are the same being. Which brings us back to John 1:1. This is a circle that still proves our point.

You will have to repost the verses that mse2us posted, because we must have glanced over them with his very long posts. No offense, but a lot of information and verses that we have to check the version used.[/quote]

I don’t really understand your logic for John 1:18. So, you are either saying that no one saw Jesus while he was on earth, OR you are saying that Jesus lives inside God’s heart or is God’s heart. I can’t see another conclusion. “The Father and I are One” part has been covered to death, and its true meaning has been shown to be of one mind or thought, not of the same being. Please reread the previous posts for that. The context is VERY clear on that.

mse2us’ other scriptures:

1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.”

Or Hebrews 10:12 which states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God,”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
[/quote]

You asked my thoughts on the statement and I gave it. I am going to continue to use “I and the Father are One” till you understand it.

  1. 1 Cor 11:3 lets first look at verse 4 do your women wear hats to church? I look at verse 3 as another show of Jesus humbling himself before God. Jesus was Fully God and Fully Human. The Human part has to humble himself before God. Why do you think Jesus prayed the way he did in the Garden the night before the Crucifiction? His God side knew was about to come, but his Human side did not want to go through that type of pain.

2)You need to approach a Hebrew/Jew to understand what sitting at the right hand means. As seen in Hebrews 1:13 to which Angel did he ever ask to sit at his right hand? Jesus can not be an angel now can he?

  1. Again this is his human side handing over power to God.

Once you see that Jesus is fully Human and Fully God then everything becomes very clear. Let the Holy Spirit talk to you. He will reveal the truth.[/quote]
Those explanations are weak and false.

1)1 Corinthians 11:3 was written after Jesus went to heaven. When Paul wrote that verse Jesus was no longer a human. Also, if Jesus were equal to or the same as God why would he need to humble himself before God as a spirit being in heaven? That makes no sense. Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethsamane because he WAS HUMAN but he also knew that his mission of him being sacrificed had to be fulfilled. He even says to his Father that his Fathers will should take place over his.

2)Why would I need to approach a Hebrew or a Jew to understand what sitting at the right hand means? Jesus in his heavenly position is higher than the angels and according to Romans 8:34 and the seven other scriptures I quoted in a previous post Jesus is at God’s right hand. Again, your explanation makes no sense.

3)Again 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is clearly talking about Jesus in his heavenly position. I’m not sure if you know this but you can not be a human and be in heaven. So no, this is not Jesus’ human side handing over power to God. This is Jesus handing over everything to his God and Father.

It’s funny how people who believe in the Trinity say that he was fully God in the flesh while on earth but when they see scriptures that state Jesus saying “The father is Greater than I am, (John 14:28)” or when he admits that he doesn’t have the authority to grant who will sit with him in his kingdom only God does (Matthew 20:23) they’re quick to say “well that’s the human Jesus talking.” But didn’t you just say he was God in the flesh. So I then say “well let’s see what happens when he no longer is a human and is back in heaven as a spirit being.” I then show him 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and they again say “well that’s his human side.” Even if I point out that you can’t be a human in heaven they still say “well that’s his human side.”

Can you see how the Trinity doctrine contradicts itself and makes no sense? Oh I forgot, people who believe in the Trinity are taught to put faith in the fact that it’s mysterious or beyond human understanding in other words they’re taught to put their faith in somethig that does not make sense.[/quote]

Sarcasim I am glad you have the authority to decide which arguments are “weak and false.” sarcasim over

I have now been told I am blinded by Satan, and my arguments are weak and false, and you are yelling at me. You guys are starting to Judge me are you not?

Lets look back at the other thread God and Hell. I told Honest_Lifter that he was going to Hell. What did I do shortly after? I asked for forgiveness because the Holy Spirit convicted me. I humbled myself before God, and asked publicly for forgiveness and Honest accepted it. Do not judge lest you be judged. You guys might want to rethink your approach here. Now that I have said this you guys might want to listen to the Holy Spirit and see what he is saying to you. You are more willing to go by what a human has told you then going by what God has told you. This shows your true colors. If you do not apologize then you are showing you are better than me, when we are all human and fall short of the Glory of God. We agree on a lot of topics, but it is obvious that we do not see eye to eye on this one.

313

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?
[/quote]
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

The prophecy that was fulfilled is the fact that the Jews did not believe Jesus because God blinded their minds and hearts. Isaiah prophesied this and it came true.

I want you to show me a scripture that is as specific as the two that I showed you. I can’t see your points based on the scriptures you use because none of them specifically distinguish between Jesus’ and God’s relationship. Some of the scriptures you used do require further investigation but none of them are as direct and clear as the two I asked you to explain. So I can’t ignore the clear and direct scriptures that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and change my mind based on the scriptures you used that do not specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship.

I know that Jesus had to humble himself and he showed humility all while he was on earth but that does not mean he is God. Exodus 33:20 states that “no man may see God and live.” This is in harmony with the scripture Honest_lifter mentioned at John 1:18 that states no man has seen God. So God could not have come down in human form for humans to see.

Look at what God had Abraham do with his only son Issac. He tested Abraham’s love and obediance by seeing if Abraham would offer his only son. This act foreshadowed what God would do with Abraham’s seed Jesus. God didn’t tell Abraham to offer up himself because it’s a lot more difficult to offer up a beloved child. Many parents would take the bullet or sacrifice themselves for their children. The greatest expression of God’s love was offering not himself but his only begotten son. That’s why John 3:16 states: “16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

God giving himself for a sacrifice would be great but giving his only-begotten son is even greater.

EDIT: I did not see your last post when I wrote this one. So I apologized for appearing to yell before I saw your post asking for an apology. But I do not apologize for stating that your explanation of the scriptures I asked you to explain as being week.

314

just to help you out, to have text in bold or underline or even italics quote my message and you will see how it is done. Hope this helps = )

[quote]mse2us wrote:

I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

[/quote]

315

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
just to help you out, to have text in bold or underline or even italics quote my message and you will see how it is done. Hope this helps = )

[quote]mse2us wrote:

I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

[/quote]
[/quote]
Thank you very much. I hope I did it right.

316

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?
[/quote]
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

The prophecy that was fulfilled is the fact that the Jews did not believe Jesus because God blinded their minds and hearts. Isaiah prophesied this and it came true.

I want you to show me a scripture that is as specific as the two that I showed you. I can’t see your points based on the scriptures you use because none of them specifically distinguish between Jesus’ and God’s relationship. Some of the scriptures you used do require further investigation but none of them are as direct and clear as the two I asked you to explain. So I can’t ignore the clear and direct scriptures that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and change my mind based on the scriptures you used that do not specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship.

I know that Jesus had to humble himself and he showed humility all while he was on earth but that does not mean he is God. Exodus 33:20 states that “no man may see God and live.” This is in harmony with the scripture Honest_lifter mentioned at John 1:18 that states no man has seen God. So God could not have come down in human form for humans to see.

Look at what God had Abraham do with his only son Issac. He tested Abraham’s love and obediance by seeing if Abraham would offer his only son. This act foreshadowed what God would do with Abraham’s seed Jesus. God didn’t tell Abraham to offer up himself because it’s a lot more difficult to offer up a beloved child. Many parents would take the bullet or sacrifice themselves for their children. The greatest expression of God’s love was offering not himself but his only begotten son. That’s why John 3:16 states: “16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

God giving himself for a sacrifice would be great but giving his only-begotten son is even greater.

EDIT: I did not see your last post when I wrote this one. So I apologized for appearing to yell before I saw your post asking for an apology. But I do not apologize for stating that your explanation of the scriptures I asked you to explain as being week. [/quote]

Lets think like a Hebrew/Jew from the time that Jesus was on earth. Really try. What would the Jews had done to Jesus if said, “I am God!” from the very begining? They would have stoned him. Pretty simple Right? If they would have stoned him would he have been able to finish his ministry? No.

Again we are still thinking like a Hebrew/Jew from Jesus’ time, and not as an enlightened American, such as yourself. I have pointed out many times that the night that Jesus was betrayed and stood before the Sanhedrin. Jesus was asked are you the Messiah? Jesus answers, “I AM.” These two small words would tell any Hebrew/Jew that he is claiming to be God. They yell BLASPHAMEY. There is only one thing to a Hebrew/Jew that means Blasphemy, and that is claiming to be Yahweh. Claiming to be a god, would have ment he is crazy and to cast him out of the city. They would not have wanted to kill him.

The laypeople Hebrews/Jews knew what he was saying, the Scholars/Spiritual Leaders knew what he was saying, the apostles knew what he was saying, and even Pilot’s wife knew what he was saying. You might want to look that one up also Matt 27:19. The people of that time knew he was saying; there was no relationship between himself and God. He is God.

While looking up the verse for Pilot’s wife I found this jewel.

Matthew 27:11

11Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Who is the King of the Jews? Who is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords? You can not get any clearer than this. Open your heart and your mind to the true God.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Being the Arch Angel means you are a leader of the angels. Does not mean you are the master over the angels. I am going to post Hebrews 1:5-14 again for emphasis.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

God is saying in verse 8 about Jesus, your throne, Oh God, will reign for ever and ever. Pretty clear that God is saying that Jesus is God.

317

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?
[/quote]
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

The prophecy that was fulfilled is the fact that the Jews did not believe Jesus because God blinded their minds and hearts. Isaiah prophesied this and it came true.

I want you to show me a scripture that is as specific as the two that I showed you. I can’t see your points based on the scriptures you use because none of them specifically distinguish between Jesus’ and God’s relationship. Some of the scriptures you used do require further investigation but none of them are as direct and clear as the two I asked you to explain. So I can’t ignore the clear and direct scriptures that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and change my mind based on the scriptures you used that do not specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship.

I know that Jesus had to humble himself and he showed humility all while he was on earth but that does not mean he is God. Exodus 33:20 states that “no man may see God and live.” This is in harmony with the scripture Honest_lifter mentioned at John 1:18 that states no man has seen God. So God could not have come down in human form for humans to see.

Look at what God had Abraham do with his only son Issac. He tested Abraham’s love and obediance by seeing if Abraham would offer his only son. This act foreshadowed what God would do with Abraham’s seed Jesus. God didn’t tell Abraham to offer up himself because it’s a lot more difficult to offer up a beloved child. Many parents would take the bullet or sacrifice themselves for their children. The greatest expression of God’s love was offering not himself but his only begotten son. That’s why John 3:16 states: “16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

God giving himself for a sacrifice would be great but giving his only-begotten son is even greater.

EDIT: I did not see your last post when I wrote this one. So I apologized for appearing to yell before I saw your post asking for an apology. But I do not apologize for stating that your explanation of the scriptures I asked you to explain as being week. [/quote]
To further expond on the point I made above. In movies we often see a villian kidnap and threaten to harm the protagonist’s child in order to get the protagonist to submit or give up. Why? Because a child is usually a parents most precious thing. This happens in real life as well. There are many cases of criminals going after children in order to get the childs parents to give in to demands. They go after the children instead of the parents because it would pain the parents to see their child hurt even more than it would pain them if they themselves were hurt. Another example is when a child is sick in a hospital. The childs parents will often say that they wish they were in the child place because it greatly pains them to see their child in that state. I have two daughters, seven and eight and I would without hesitation push them out of the way to take the bullet or give them the last parachute if we were in a plane going down.

My point in the above examples is to show that because a child is precious to parents, if they had to choose between them dying or their child dying, most would choose themselves instead of their child.

That’s why God told Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac to see if he really loved him and if he would be obediant. God knows that giving a precious child is a bigger sacrifice than giving yourself.

I’m going to try to illustrate my point. This is a crude illustration but I think most will get the point. Imagine that your child is sick and dying and is in need of a special operation to save his life. Time is running out and you can’t come up with the money to have the procedure done. Your child is getting sicker by the day. You tell your friend that you recently met the situation and he says he will sell all of his belonging to get the money you need. He sells everything and gives you the money and then explains to you that he is now destitude but he is glad that he could help. Realizing the sacrifice he just made, your love and appreciation for your friend would be beyond words because not only did he save your childs life but he gave up or sacrificed everything to do so. But then you come to find out that your new friend is a billionare and he has five houses throughout the world. Now you would still appeciate what he did because after all he did save your childs life but you would naturally wonder why he was deceptive in doing so. You would now look at him with some suspicion because he lied and acted like he was making a bigger sacrifice than it actually was.

Do you get the point?

John 3:16 states that God loved the world so much that he gave his
only-begotten son. God giving his only-begotten son is a greater sacrifice than giving a part of himself (he was obviously still in heaven) to come to earth to be sacrificed. If God gave himself as a scrifice instead of his only-begotten son he would have lied when he inspired John to write the verse at John 3:16 because he would have made it appear that the sacrifice was greater than it actually was. But the Bible states that it is
impossible for God to lie. So God would never have mislead and decieved the world by stating that his love for the world was so great that he gave his only-begotten son when it was actually God himself who was sacrificed.

Can you see how the Trinity teaching defames God and Jesus?

It defames Jesus by making it appear that he is lying when he says statements such as his father is greater than he or when asked if two of his apostles could sit with him in his kingdom stating he can’t choose but it’s his father who chooses (Matthew 20:23). That is beyond being humble. It is actually stating something that is not true. If Jesus was able to choose who could be a part of his Kingdom that would be the opposite of the statement he made at Matthew 20:23 which would be a lie not simply being humble.

It defames God by making it appear as though he was lying when he said that he gave his
only-begotten son when it was actually himself.

Now Trinitarians will try to twist the doctrine and say that when Jesus was on earth that he was actually his son. Don’t be fooled. The Trinity teaching is that Jesus was fully God in the flesh while on earth; not the son of God.

318

I see your point. I have three children and I would do the same thing.

In your anology you are saying that God is a billionaire and that you do not trust him? God owns everything so I might be missing your point on the illustration. Not trying to be an ass.

I am trying to see your point through your glasses. Everything in this paragraph is stating how I am seeing your argument through your glasses, so please do not think these are my thoughts. Jesus is an angel. In being an angel Jesus is created just like all of us. It is hard for me to see as an angel why Jesus is more imporatant than me. God created angels to be servants and messengers to Earth. God gave us free will to choose whether to follow him or not. Who would you rather have as a friend? A friend who likes you for who you are or for what you can give them?

You see where I am coming from in the above paragraph?

I am willing to look at your points from your side of the mirror, but you are not willing to reciprocate. I am saying that your way of looking at the Bible is through the glasses of a human. A human that has prophecied incorrectly on multiple occasions. There have been 4-5 prophecies of when Jesus was going to return to Earth from your group, and every one of them have been wrong.

If Jesus is truely God’s Son, and has always been as stated in John 1:1 even though Jesus and God are one in the same. If you think you can explain God by using human knowledge then you do not know how Big God is. We can not put him in a box and say here is God. He is above our thoughts. There are countless books that have been written trying to understand and explain who God is. The apostles tried to explain but I guess for your sake they did a bad job. There are people all over the world when they look at the Bible through a set of Christian glasses, go now I see what God is saying. Know I get it. It is very clear to me the meaning of the New Testament.

Again I have proven that Jesus claimed to be God, and that the people of his time beleived he was saying that. Could he have called down the angels to take him from the cross. Yes he could, but he didn’t. The Son knew that this had to be done so that all men and women could come before God as Holy in his sight. He gave up himself so that all his children could come to him. Let me say that again, he sacrificed himself so that all his children could come to him. He took the punishment so that we did not have to. Our Father who art in heaven, gave up himself so that we, as his children who have an inheritance in the Kingdom, do not have to bear the punishment ourself.

I am using your illistration to show God taking the bullet for us. You say that the illustration is Abraham sacrificing his only Son Issac. I say God stopped Abraham from killing his only son Issac. God then provided a sacrifice for Abraham and Issac to worship God. That is how much he loves us all. Through Christ/God we are all his children, but it is only through the Son that we can get to the Father. The Father and the Son are one. If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father. If you have seen an angel you have seen an angel. Two different things. Only the Son can be seated at the right hand of the father, and on the throne, not an angel as pointed out in Hebrews. Do you see my point?

319

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?
[/quote]
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

The prophecy that was fulfilled is the fact that the Jews did not believe Jesus because God blinded their minds and hearts. Isaiah prophesied this and it came true.

I want you to show me a scripture that is as specific as the two that I showed you. I can’t see your points based on the scriptures you use because none of them specifically distinguish between Jesus’ and God’s relationship. Some of the scriptures you used do require further investigation but none of them are as direct and clear as the two I asked you to explain. So I can’t ignore the clear and direct scriptures that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and change my mind based on the scriptures you used that do not specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship.

I know that Jesus had to humble himself and he showed humility all while he was on earth but that does not mean he is God. Exodus 33:20 states that “no man may see God and live.” This is in harmony with the scripture Honest_lifter mentioned at John 1:18 that states no man has seen God. So God could not have come down in human form for humans to see.

Look at what God had Abraham do with his only son Issac. He tested Abraham’s love and obediance by seeing if Abraham would offer his only son. This act foreshadowed what God would do with Abraham’s seed Jesus. God didn’t tell Abraham to offer up himself because it’s a lot more difficult to offer up a beloved child. Many parents would take the bullet or sacrifice themselves for their children. The greatest expression of God’s love was offering not himself but his only begotten son. That’s why John 3:16 states: “16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

God giving himself for a sacrifice would be great but giving his only-begotten son is even greater.

EDIT: I did not see your last post when I wrote this one. So I apologized for appearing to yell before I saw your post asking for an apology. But I do not apologize for stating that your explanation of the scriptures I asked you to explain as being week. [/quote]

Lets think like a Hebrew/Jew from the time that Jesus was on earth. Really try. What would the Jews had done to Jesus if said, “I am God!” from the very begining? They would have stoned him. Pretty simple Right? If they would have stoned him would he have been able to finish his ministry? No.

Again we are still thinking like a Hebrew/Jew from Jesus’ time, and not as an enlightened American, such as yourself. I have pointed out many times that the night that Jesus was betrayed and stood before the Sanhedrin. Jesus was asked are you the Messiah? Jesus answers, “I AM.” These two small words would tell any Hebrew/Jew that he is claiming to be God. They yell BLASPHAMEY. There is only one thing to a Hebrew/Jew that means Blasphemy, and that is claiming to be Yahweh. Claiming to be a god, would have ment he is crazy and to cast him out of the city. They would not have wanted to kill him.

The laypeople Hebrews/Jews knew what he was saying, the Scholars/Spiritual Leaders knew what he was saying, the apostles knew what he was saying, and even Pilot’s wife knew what he was saying. You might want to look that one up also Matt 27:19. The people of that time knew he was saying; there was no relationship between himself and God. He is God.

While looking up the verse for Pilot’s wife I found this jewel.

Matthew 27:11

11Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Who is the King of the Jews? Who is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords? You can not get any clearer than this. Open your heart and your mind to the true God.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Being the Arch Angel means you are a leader of the angels. Does not mean you are the master over the angels. I am going to post Hebrews 1:5-14 again for emphasis.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

God is saying in verse 8 about Jesus, your throne, Oh God, will reign for ever and ever. Pretty clear that God is saying that Jesus is God. [/quote]
Again, none of those verses are as clear and direct as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 or 1 Corinthians 11:3. Unfortunately, bad Bible translation can misconstrue the true meaning of the verses and all this does is cause confusion. Not only that but due to pre-existing beliefs about the Trinity many translations have been influenced to hint that God and Jesus are the same. Two of the examples you gave Dmaddox do just that.

Since there aren’t any scriptures that directly distiguish between God and Jesus and then clearly state who has more authority like the two verses I listed above DO, Trinitarians like to use verses that hint that Jesus is God Almighty. For example, Trinitarians use “I am” to show that Jehovah and Jesus are the same. Many translations render Exodus 3:14(NIV) as:
God said to Moses, “I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ "
According to this translation God is stating that Moses should tell the Israelites that “I am” has sent you.
Jesus says the words “I am” at John 18:5 when the mob states that they’re looking for Jesus. The NIV renders John 18:5 as:
“Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.”

So Dmaddox is saying that since God said his name is “I am” and Jesus answered “I am he” to the mob when they said they were looking for Jesus this implies that they are the same.

Now here is my point. My Bible which is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures renders Exodus 3:14 the following way:
"At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”

The verse directly above renders “I am” as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Which means that God can become whatever is needed to fullfil his purposes. Which translation is more accurate or clearly conveys the meaning of Exodus 3:14? Because “I am who I am” and “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE,” completely changes the meaning of the verse. Now here is where the pre-existing Trinity belief comes in. If you look at the footnote next to the words “I am” at Exodus 3:14 in the NIV translation it shows that it could also be translated as “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE,” which is similiar in meaning to “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” But due to the fact that Trinitarians like to link what God said at Exodus 3:14 to what Jesus said at John 18:5 to prove that Jesus is God Almighty, translators let this influence their translations and chose to use “I am” instead of the more accurate “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.”

The other example is Hebrews 1:8,9. Verse 8 from the New Revised Standard Version reads:
“But of the Son he says,'Your throne, O God, is* for ever and ever, and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your* kingdom.” 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

The [u]New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures/u renders Hebrews 1:8,9:
"But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.”

Can you see the difference? The former verse states: “But of the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” The latter states: “But with reference to the Son: God is your throne forever and ever,”

The way that these two translations renders verse 8 changes the meaning of the verse. Again,
here is were pre-existing Trinity beliefs influences the translation. The New Revised Standard Version has an astriek next to “O God, is*.” at verse 8. When you click on the astriek to look at the footnote it reads: “Or God is your throne” which then completely changes the meaning of the verse and renders it like the NWT. As Dmaddox points out the popular rendering such as the New Revised Standared Version that I used makes it appear that the son is called “O God” but also notes that it could be rendered “God is your throne” meaning that his father is the source of Jesus’ throne.

I know, confusing! My point in of all of this is that some Bible translations such as the King James Translation are bad translations. Because not only are they harder to read and understand but pre-existing beliefs influenced the translations. The different translations do make it confusing but when presented with scriptures that people use to [i[hint[/i] that God and Jesus are the same look at it this way. When God inspired the Bible writers to write the verses above, the intention or point to convey was not to address Jesus’ and God’s relationship and show who has more authority. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and 1 Corinthians 11:3 are there to clearly and direclty show that all things will submit to Jesus except God and Jesus will submit to God and that God is the head of Jesus. No scriptures that Trinitarians use will be as clear and direct as those two.

If anyone wants to look up what I stated above go to this link:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/bible_read.php
The NIV is the first Bible in the list called the Amplified Bible and the New Revised Standard Version is toward the botton of the list. You can look up the verses I mentioned above and see how both the NIV and the New Revised Standard Version have footnotes that change the meaning of the verses.

320

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Lets bring up another one, and this time Jesus says he is Jehovah. You are going to like this one.

John 12:39-41

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turnÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??and I would heal them."[a] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

This one refers to Isaiah 6:10 - For those that do not know this is the part where Isaiah sees the Lord sitting on the throne.

10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [a]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

Hebrews 1:10-12

10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[a]

This goes back to Psalm 102:25-27

25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.

27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

[/quote]

Nice try D. At John 12:41 John is talking about Isaiah seeing Gods glory not Jesus’. For starters, that is not Jesus talking it is John narrating. John points out that the Jews not believing Jesus was prophesied in Isaiah. John then goes onto quote Isaiah. Let see how the New King James Translation renders John 12:38-41:

"38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw HIS glory and spoke of Him.

Can you see the difference D? The above translation states that Isaiah saw HIS glory. Who’s glory? Verse 38 show the verses that follow are talking about the Lord’s glory. My Bible uses God’s name Jehovah instead of the title Lord. I went to Bible.com and out of the 15 translations that I looked up 12 said that Isaiah saw HIS glory meaning Jehovah’s glory; not Jesus’ glory. So MOST translation state HIS glory instead of Jesus’ glory. Unfortunately, this does cause confusion because we are now debating over words that translations use. Not all Bible translations are equal and due to beliefs such as the Trinity many Bible translators let that influence their translations. So the above verses Dmaddox used is weak scriptual evidence to explain the Trinity. How so? When God inspired John to write those verses the point of those verses was to show that the Jews did not believe Jesus because it was prophysied by Isaiah that God would blind their hearts and mind. It was not to show God’s and Jesus’ relationship and who had more authority. On the other hand 1 Corinthians 11:3 directly and clearly addressed the headship or pecking order of woman vs man, man vs Jesus and Jesus vs God. The verse even starts of by stating: “But I want you to know.” So when God inpired Paul to write
1 Corinthians 11:3 he wants readers to know that in marriage the man is the head of the household, in the Christian congregation Jesus is the head of man and when it comes to authority God is the head of or over Jesus. This harmonizes with what Jesus said at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 is another passage that clearly and directly address God’s and Jesus relationship by mentioning both God and Jesus and directly stating who has more authority. So again when God inspired Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 that all things are subject to Jesus with the exception of God and that in the future Jesus will subject all the things to God, God wants the readers to know that Jesus is made subject to him.

I keep hammering this point and Trinitarians don’t seem to get it. YOU WILL NOT FIND A SCRIPTURE IN THE BIBLE THAT WAS WRITTEN SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS GOD’S AND JESUS’ RELATIONSHIP THAT STATE GOD AND JESUS ARE THE SAME BEINGS OR EQUAL IN AUTHORITY. THAT’S BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE IN THE BIBLE. On the other hand there are MANY scriptures that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus’ relationship and directly state that God has more authority than Jesus. So no matter how many scriptures you use and try to “twist” Dmaddox none will be greater, clearer and more direct than the two (out of many) I listed above in regards to showing that God and Jesus are not the same or equal.

By the way the scriptures you quoted from Hebrews, are you going to explain those scriptures/ Because I can’t see how you could even use those to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

First of all why are you yelling? There is not need for this. You are as frustrated with me as I am with you and Honest.

Nice try m, but did you read the first part? So that the words of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and not abolish it. They are talking about Jesus. He is the fulfillment of the prophets prophicy. So when it is using the word HIS, that would mean Jesus. I am no english scholar, but I can even come to that conclusion.

Until we get this taken care of you might want to hold off on other verses, or the same verses you continue to post.

I will say I am showing you plenty of verses in the Bible that prove Jesus and God are the same. You just are not willing to see it. I see your points, and how you come to those conclusions, but since you do not understand the duality of Jesus being fully man and fully God, you will not be able to see our point. Once you do then you will be able to see what the Bible is truely trying to tell us.

You keep denouncing the subject that Jesus willfully humbled himself so that he could become sin for us to bring us back to God. God gave up his throne to become sin. To become sin he had to become human. Why would someone give up their throne? They wanted us to be with him. God had to make a sacrifice so that he can look past our sins and bring us back into fellowship with him. No other being can make that sacrifice other than God. John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. God wants us to be with him so he lays down his life for us. God has called us friends. He has also called us brothers, and his children.

Verse 15 of John 15, I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. All angels are God’s servants. How could Jesus know the master’s business if he is an angel? Jesus knew he was here to die for our sins. How can Jesus know God’s plan if he is not God?
[/quote]
I’m sorry if it appears that I’m yelling. I capitalize for emphasize. I’m not sure how to highlight text by underlining or italicizing with my web browser. If I knew how I would do either or instead of capitalizing.

The prophecy that was fulfilled is the fact that the Jews did not believe Jesus because God blinded their minds and hearts. Isaiah prophesied this and it came true.

I want you to show me a scripture that is as specific as the two that I showed you. I can’t see your points based on the scriptures you use because none of them specifically distinguish between Jesus’ and God’s relationship. Some of the scriptures you used do require further investigation but none of them are as direct and clear as the two I asked you to explain. So I can’t ignore the clear and direct scriptures that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship and change my mind based on the scriptures you used that do not specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship.

I know that Jesus had to humble himself and he showed humility all while he was on earth but that does not mean he is God. Exodus 33:20 states that “no man may see God and live.” This is in harmony with the scripture Honest_lifter mentioned at John 1:18 that states no man has seen God. So God could not have come down in human form for humans to see.

Look at what God had Abraham do with his only son Issac. He tested Abraham’s love and obediance by seeing if Abraham would offer his only son. This act foreshadowed what God would do with Abraham’s seed Jesus. God didn’t tell Abraham to offer up himself because it’s a lot more difficult to offer up a beloved child. Many parents would take the bullet or sacrifice themselves for their children. The greatest expression of God’s love was offering not himself but his only begotten son. That’s why John 3:16 states: “16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”

God giving himself for a sacrifice would be great but giving his only-begotten son is even greater.

EDIT: I did not see your last post when I wrote this one. So I apologized for appearing to yell before I saw your post asking for an apology. But I do not apologize for stating that your explanation of the scriptures I asked you to explain as being week. [/quote]

Lets think like a Hebrew/Jew from the time that Jesus was on earth. Really try. What would the Jews had done to Jesus if said, “I am God!” from the very begining? They would have stoned him. Pretty simple Right? If they would have stoned him would he have been able to finish his ministry? No.

Again we are still thinking like a Hebrew/Jew from Jesus’ time, and not as an enlightened American, such as yourself. I have pointed out many times that the night that Jesus was betrayed and stood before the Sanhedrin. Jesus was asked are you the Messiah? Jesus answers, “I AM.” These two small words would tell any Hebrew/Jew that he is claiming to be God. They yell BLASPHAMEY. There is only one thing to a Hebrew/Jew that means Blasphemy, and that is claiming to be Yahweh. Claiming to be a god, would have ment he is crazy and to cast him out of the city. They would not have wanted to kill him.

The laypeople Hebrews/Jews knew what he was saying, the Scholars/Spiritual Leaders knew what he was saying, the apostles knew what he was saying, and even Pilot’s wife knew what he was saying. You might want to look that one up also Matt 27:19. The people of that time knew he was saying; there was no relationship between himself and God. He is God.

While looking up the verse for Pilot’s wife I found this jewel.

Matthew 27:11

11Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.

Who is the King of the Jews? Who is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords? You can not get any clearer than this. Open your heart and your mind to the true God.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Being the Arch Angel means you are a leader of the angels. Does not mean you are the master over the angels. I am going to post Hebrews 1:5-14 again for emphasis.

5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”? Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.” 7In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire.”[e] 8But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[f] 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

God is saying in verse 8 about Jesus, your throne, Oh God, will reign for ever and ever. Pretty clear that God is saying that Jesus is God. [/quote]
Again, none of those verses are as clear and direct as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 or 1 Corinthians 11:3. Unfortunately, bad Bible translation can misconstrue the true meaning of the verses and all this does is cause confusion. Not only that but due to pre-existing beliefs about the Trinity many translations have been influenced to hint that God and Jesus are the same. Two of the examples you gave Dmaddox do just that.

Since there aren’t any scriptures that directly distiguish between God and Jesus and then clearly state who has more authority like the two verses I listed above DO, Trinitarians like to use verses that hint that Jesus is God Almighty. For example, Trinitarians use “I am” to show that Jehovah and Jesus are the same. Many translations render Exodus 3:14(NIV) as:
God said to Moses, “I am who I am . [b] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ "
According to this translation God is stating that Moses should tell the Israelites that “I am” has sent you.
Jesus says the words “I am” at John 18:5 when the mob states that they’re looking for Jesus. The NIV renders John 18:5 as:
“Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.”

So Dmaddox is saying that since God said his name is “I am” and Jesus answered “I am he” to the mob when they said they were looking for Jesus this implies that they are the same.

Now here is my point. My Bible which is the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures renders Exodus 3:14 the following way:
"At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’”

The verse directly above renders “I am” as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Which means that God can become whatever is needed to fullfil his purposes. Which translation is more accurate or clearly conveys the meaning of Exodus 3:14? Because “I am who I am” and “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE,” completely changes the meaning of the verse. Now here is where the pre-existing Trinity belief comes in. If you look at the footnote next to the words “I am” at Exodus 3:14 in the NIV translation it shows that it could also be translated as “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE,” which is similiar in meaning to “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” But due to the fact that Trinitarians like to link what God said at Exodus 3:14 to what Jesus said at John 18:5 to prove that Jesus is God Almighty, translators let this influence their translations and chose to use “I am” instead of the more accurate “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.”

The other example is Hebrews 1:8,9. Verse 8 from the New Revised Standard Version reads:
“But of the Son he says,'Your throne, O God, is* for ever and ever, and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your* kingdom.” 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

The [u]New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures/u renders Hebrews 1:8,9:
"But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness. 9 You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners.”

Can you see the difference? The former verse states: “But of the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” The latter states: “But with reference to the Son: God is your throne forever and ever,”

The way that these two translations renders verse 8 changes the meaning of the verse. Again,
here is were pre-existing Trinity beliefs influences the translation. The New Revised Standard Version has an astriek next to “O God, is*.” at verse 8. When you click on the astriek to look at the footnote it reads: “Or God is your throne” which then completely changes the meaning of the verse and renders it like the NWT. As Dmaddox points out the popular rendering such as the New Revised Standared Version that I used makes it appear that the son is called “O God” but also notes that it could be rendered “God is your throne” meaning that his father is the source of Jesus’ throne.

I know, confusing! My point in of all of this is that some Bible translations such as the King James Translation are bad translations. Because not only are they harder to read and understand but pre-existing beliefs influenced the translations. The different translations do make it confusing but when presented with scriptures that people use to [i[hint[/i] that God and Jesus are the same look at it this way. When God inspired the Bible writers to write the verses above, the intention or point to convey was not to address Jesus’ and God’s relationship and show who has more authority. On the other hand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and 1 Corinthians 11:3 are there to clearly and direclty show that all things will submit to Jesus except God and Jesus will submit to God and that God is the head of Jesus. No scriptures that Trinitarians use will be as clear and direct as those two.

If anyone wants to look up what I stated above go to this link:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/bible_read.php
The NIV is the first Bible in the list called the Amplified Bible and the New Revised Standard Version is toward the botton of the list. You can look up the verses I mentioned above and see how both the NIV and the New Revised Standard Version have footnotes that change the meaning of the verses.[/quote]

I see how you like to include only the Christian translations of the Bible. The same thing can be said, if not more, for your book. I would say your translation was written only to confirm your beleifs. Changed in many ways to refute the Trinity because a man wanted it to be that way.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, but know we will be on the same side versus atheists, but we will be on different sides talking about Heaven and Hell, the Trinity, and Jesus being an Angel. Take it easy, and see you around Friend.