[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[
I was asking Joab on this one. About the passages of the Bible.[/quote]
I know who you were asking. And I wasn’t trying to answer your question.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
That point was something new you brought to the table, and I wanted to know what you meant by it.
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[/quote]
Can God lie? Can God Sin? Is he above is own laws?
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
http://bible.cc/romans/10-13.htm
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
http://bible.cc/psalms/83-18.htm
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.
Acts 4:7-12 Pharisees:And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
Peter:Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth … Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[/quote]
Can God lie? Can God Sin? Is he above is own laws?[/quote]
And yet you still do not deny and divert responsibilty with questions. Remove yourself from your humanly logic, remove yourself from what you’ve been TOLD to think, rely on your faith, and you can answer those questions by yourself.
I pray you will be shown the way.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
http://bible.cc/romans/10-13.htm
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
http://bible.cc/psalms/83-18.htm
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.[/quote]
Read our Bible. Completely. Do not use your book or watchtower to pull out different scriptures. Once you understand that Jesus is God, and Jesus claimed to be God, which he did, the Word of God comes to life, and all your questions are answered. I commend you that you study your book so much and your ability to go door to door. Your works is all you have to fall back on. My brothers and I fall back on Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone which was thrown away. You have thrown that cornerstone away yourself by making yourself equal to him. Our Bible and your book are too different. I will reiterate to please do not call yourself a Christian going forward. You are a Jehovah’s Witness. When you want to repent and ask our God, Jesus Christ into your heart, then we will call you a brother. Until then you are not.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]
And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.
There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?
Why shouldn’t John read this way:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.
Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.
Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]
Again, the New World Translation is not the only translation that states this. I listed two other translations that state the nature of Jesus at John 1:1. There is no authority that states this. Numerous translators who were careful have stated this and adusted thier translation to show that Jesus was a spirt being who was with God. The people who translated the NWT are one of those translators.
The reason I said to exclude John 1:1 is due to the fact that some translations state that the word was god and some state that the word was a god or divine. There is obvious some confusion over this verse so I said show me other verses that clearly address God and Jesus’ relationshi. That’s what I did regarding Philippians 2:5-8 (New American Bible) these verses state:
“Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, 8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.”
These verses clearly show that Jesus did not want to be equal to God. But the KJV states that he wanted to be equal to God, even though all other translations state that he DID NOT want to be equal with God. Since there can be some confusion over these verses I did not use the above verses in any of my replies because there are dozens of other verses that state the relationship between God and Jesus just as clear. I know that Trinitarians base the whole Trinity doctrine on one verse John 1:1 which is a mistranslation. Not me, I use the whole Bible and the dozens of scripturs that clearly state the relationship between God and Jesus showing that they are not the same.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]
And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.
There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?
Why shouldn’t John read this way:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.
Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.
Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]
Again, the New World Translation is not the only translation that states this. I listed two other translations that state the nature of Jesus at John 1:1. There is no authority that states this. Numerous translators who were careful have stated this and adusted thier translation to show that Jesus was a spirt being who was with God. The people who translated the NWT are one of those translators.
The reason I said to exclude John 1:1 is due to the fact that some translations state that the word was god and some state that the word was a god or divine. There is obvious some confusion over this verse so I said show me other verses that clearly address God and Jesus’ relationshi. That’s what I did regarding Philippians 2:5-8 (New American Bible) these verses state:
“Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. 7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, 8 he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. 9 Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name 7 that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, 9 to the glory of God the Father.”
These verses clearly show that Jesus did not want to be equal to God. But the KJV states that he wanted to be equal to God, even though all other translations state that he DID NOT want to be equal with God. Since there can be some confusion over these verses I did not use the above verses in any of my replies because there are dozens of other verses that state the relationship between God and Jesus just as clear. I know that Trinitarians base the whole Trinity doctrine on one verse John 1:1 which is a mistranslation. Not me, I use the whole Bible and the dozens of scripturs that clearly state the relationship between God and Jesus showing that they are not the same.[/quote]
You mentioned 2 other translations that no Christian uses. If you go to Bible.cc as Honest_Lifter likes to put up. All 17 Translations show that the Word was God.
This is the second piece of scripture that shows that Jesus is God, and claimed as much. Once you see this your other scriptures you are using show that Jesus’ Humanity is acting in humility towards his full divinity. Jesus is God. This clears up ALL of your questions.
Will you follow Jesus as your God and Savior? Yes or No.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
http://bible.cc/romans/10-13.htm
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
http://bible.cc/psalms/83-18.htm
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.[/quote]
Read our Bible. Completely. Do not use your book or watchtower to pull out different scriptures. Once you understand that Jesus is God, and Jesus claimed to be God, which he did, the Word of God comes to life, and all your questions are answered. I commend you that you study your book so much and your ability to go door to door. Your works is all you have to fall back on. My brothers and I fall back on Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone which was thrown away. You have thrown that cornerstone away yourself by making yourself equal to him. Our Bible and your book are too different. I will reiterate to please do not call yourself a Christian going forward. You are a Jehovah’s Witness. When you want to repent and ask our God, Jesus Christ into your heart, then we will call you a brother. Until then you are not.[/quote]
D, I go to Bible.com and read multiple translations of the Bible. I’m not using the Watchtower to pull out different scriptures and if I was that wouldn’t make a difference. Study articles in the Watchtower have scriptures to back up ALL of the material in that particular study article. We are encouraged to look up all of the scriptures so that we can know for sure that the statments the study articles are making are grounded in the Bible. We are also encouraged to read the Bible daily. We had a study article two weeks ago about how to use the Bible more effectively. One of the points of advice was to make sure we know the full context of any particular verse we are about to use before we use it. Meaning we should understand the verses before and after the verse were about to use so we can thoroughly understand it.
Again, you use no scriptures to back your statements or to explain any of the scriptures I use such as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. The reason is that you can’t.
A Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and we certainly do. So yes we are Christians.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
http://bible.cc/romans/10-13.htm
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
http://bible.cc/psalms/83-18.htm
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.[/quote]
Read our Bible. Completely. Do not use your book or watchtower to pull out different scriptures. Once you understand that Jesus is God, and Jesus claimed to be God, which he did, the Word of God comes to life, and all your questions are answered. I commend you that you study your book so much and your ability to go door to door. Your works is all you have to fall back on. My brothers and I fall back on Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone which was thrown away. You have thrown that cornerstone away yourself by making yourself equal to him. Our Bible and your book are too different. I will reiterate to please do not call yourself a Christian going forward. You are a Jehovah’s Witness. When you want to repent and ask our God, Jesus Christ into your heart, then we will call you a brother. Until then you are not.[/quote]
D, I go to Bible.com and read multiple translations of the Bible. I’m not using the Watchtower to pull out different scriptures and if I was that wouldn’t make a difference. Study articles in the Watchtower have scriptures to back up ALL of the material in that particular study article. We are encouraged to look up all of the scriptures so that we can know for sure that the statments the study articles are making are grounded in the Bible. We are also encouraged to read the Bible daily. We had a study article two weeks ago about how to use the Bible more effectively. One of the points of advice was to make sure we know the full context of any particular verse we are about to use before we use it. Meaning we should understand the verses before and after the verse were about to use so we can thoroughly understand it.
Again, you use no scriptures to back your statements or to explain any of the scriptures I use such as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. The reason is that you can’t.
A Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and we certainly do. So yes we are Christians.[/quote]
So the Devil/Satan is a Christian? He believes in Jesus Christ. He even believes that he is the Son of God. What makes you different?
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[/quote]
Can God lie? Can God Sin? Is he above is own laws?[/quote]
And yet you still do not deny and divert responsibilty with questions. Remove yourself from your humanly logic, remove yourself from what you’ve been TOLD to think, rely on your faith, and you can answer those questions by yourself.
I pray you will be shown the way.
[/quote]
Told to think? Really? I just asked 3 questions, and you just say i divert responsibility. No, Jehovah is not Omnipresent. Jesus is not Omnipresent. The Holy Spirit isn’t even a person/being. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jehovah or Jesus are everywhere at the same time. But you feel they are. Must be doctrine you were told by your church, because it can’t be found in the Bible. The Holy Spirit didn’t guide you to that conclusion because that would be different from what the Bible says.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.[/quote]
Read our Bible. Completely. Do not use your book or watchtower to pull out different scriptures. Once you understand that Jesus is God, and Jesus claimed to be God, which he did, the Word of God comes to life, and all your questions are answered. I commend you that you study your book so much and your ability to go door to door. Your works is all you have to fall back on. My brothers and I fall back on Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone which was thrown away. You have thrown that cornerstone away yourself by making yourself equal to him. Our Bible and your book are too different. I will reiterate to please do not call yourself a Christian going forward. You are a Jehovah’s Witness. When you want to repent and ask our God, Jesus Christ into your heart, then we will call you a brother. Until then you are not.[/quote]
D, I go to Bible.com and read multiple translations of the Bible. I’m not using the Watchtower to pull out different scriptures and if I was that wouldn’t make a difference. Study articles in the Watchtower have scriptures to back up ALL of the material in that particular study article. We are encouraged to look up all of the scriptures so that we can know for sure that the statments the study articles are making are grounded in the Bible. We are also encouraged to read the Bible daily. We had a study article two weeks ago about how to use the Bible more effectively. One of the points of advice was to make sure we know the full context of any particular verse we are about to use before we use it. Meaning we should understand the verses before and after the verse were about to use so we can thoroughly understand it.
Again, you use no scriptures to back your statements or to explain any of the scriptures I use such as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. The reason is that you can’t.
A Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and we certainly do. So yes we are Christians.[/quote]
So the Devil/Satan is a Christian? He believes in Jesus Christ. He even believes that he is the Son of God. What makes you different?[/quote]
This is a perfect example of the blind following that you are doing. You don’t even know what you are saying.
You just said, and you have been saying that Jesus is God’s Son, and that he is God. How can you even do that without being blinded by Satan.
Satan’s original fight was with Jehovah and His right to rule. How GREAT he must feel to know that people are giving all this credit to Jesus and worshipping him! Satan is getting what he wants!
There are so many scriptures that are not ambiguous, and that clearly state Jehovah as God. Once again: Psalm 83:18 - That they may know that you, WHOSE NAME IS JEHOVAH, you ALONE are Most High over all the earth. That didn’t state that “you, whose name is Jehovah, you are part of the Most High”.
The road to life in narrow and FEW are the ones finding it.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Please read 4 verses down from what you are using:
John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”
Please explain that one to me as well.
And just to show you that we are not the only translation used here…
http://bible.cc/john/1-18.htm[/quote]
Who are you talking to? Why dont you understand that Jesus is God. Your Book is different from the Bible. You are now barking up the wrong tree for now on.
Praise be to God, and I will lay my crowns at the feet of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. I might be a co-ruler, but Jesus will always be my King. The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Emanuel, God with us. Praise again to my God and Savior Jesus Christ. Who was and is and is to come. His Kindom will reign for ever in Heaven and on Earth. Praises and Worship to the Lord Most High. Praises to I AM. [/quote]
Praise goes to Jehovah the Almighty God.
Romans 10:13
“For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Notice that it didn’t say "For everyone who calls on the name of Jesus will be saved. It is good to show honor to Jesus, however, that will not lead to salvation; Salvation is through Jehovah.
Your Bible will most likely use “LORD”. So that begs the question, why was God’s name removed from the Bible so others will not know about it? We NEED to know it.
God makes very clear who He is and what His position is.
Psalms 83:18
“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.”
[/quote]
Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” How do you JWs resolve this conflict while we don’t have a conflict with this verse.
By the way if you really want to be picky about the name of the Lord you shouldn’t be spelling it or pronouncing it Jehovah as there was no J sound in the Hebrew language but instead was pronounced with a Y sound.[/quote]
I don’t see a conflict. Those verses distinguish between God and Jesus. What makes you think Jehovah’s Witness have a conflict with that? Nowhere does it come close to stating Jesus is equal to or is God.
Here’s a question for you (Cueball, Dmoddox, Pat, Katz or anyone else). How do you explain 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 which states:
24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."
Anyone of you, can you explain this scripture using the Bible? Now there are some scriptures like John 1:1 or when Thomas calls Jesus his God that can cause confusion and merit further examining of the Bible to see what is meant by that particular verse. Every time any one of you presented a scripture to me like that I used the Bible and multiple scriptures to explain and to clarify what that verse means. No one has been able to explain or clarify using the Bible ANY of the numerous scriptures I quoted. All you can do is use blanketed statements such as “You’re blind,” “You can’t explain God,” “The Bible can’t explain God,” “When Jesus said that he really didn’t mean it,” “relie on the Holy Spirit and you will see.” I showed eight scriptures from different parts of the Bible that clearly state that Jesus was at God’s RIGHT HAND before he came to earth and when he went back to heaven he was at God’s RIGHT HAND. Instead of ignoring all of those scriptures I quoted or saying I’m blinded, somebody show me from the Bible how those scriptures mean that instead of being at God’s right hand Jesus is actually God himself.
This is for anyone following this thread who believe God’s word the Bible is the ultimate authority, can you see from this discussion (I know there’s a lot to read) how we use the whole Bible to back a belief? We don’t rely on reasoning that is unexplainable or use the excuse that something is too high for us to understand. We don’t rely on one scripture to base our whole belief on. If there are multiple scriptures that address a subject we look at all of them and in regards to whether Jesus is God there are DOZENS that specifically address God’s and Jesus’ relationship. All of the scriptures I quoted to show Jesus is not God harmonize with each other and are clear. Most clearly address and distinguish between God and Jesus and specifically state the relationship between the two.
I see Cueball has said that we rely on the scriptures too much to try to understand and explain God. I’ve heard this reasoning before in regards to the Trinity and this is truly sad. The ONLY thing we can rely on is the BIBLE because that is the only source available today that has the thoughts of God in it. Relying on anything else other than the Bible is relying on the reasoning of men. Does the Bible state to rely on Theologins or highly educated men to find answers? No. Notice what the Bible states to rely on to find answers: 2 Timothy 3:16 and 17(KJV) states:“17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,16 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
The above scriptures make it clear that the Bible which is inpired by God should be used for correction and DOCTRINE. It’s sad that some people would rather ignore what’s stated in the Bible and rely on the uxexplainable. It’s unexplainable or too high for us to understand because it can’t be explained using the Bible.[/quote]
Read our Bible. Completely. Do not use your book or watchtower to pull out different scriptures. Once you understand that Jesus is God, and Jesus claimed to be God, which he did, the Word of God comes to life, and all your questions are answered. I commend you that you study your book so much and your ability to go door to door. Your works is all you have to fall back on. My brothers and I fall back on Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone which was thrown away. You have thrown that cornerstone away yourself by making yourself equal to him. Our Bible and your book are too different. I will reiterate to please do not call yourself a Christian going forward. You are a Jehovah’s Witness. When you want to repent and ask our God, Jesus Christ into your heart, then we will call you a brother. Until then you are not.[/quote]
D, I go to Bible.com and read multiple translations of the Bible. I’m not using the Watchtower to pull out different scriptures and if I was that wouldn’t make a difference. Study articles in the Watchtower have scriptures to back up ALL of the material in that particular study article. We are encouraged to look up all of the scriptures so that we can know for sure that the statments the study articles are making are grounded in the Bible. We are also encouraged to read the Bible daily. We had a study article two weeks ago about how to use the Bible more effectively. One of the points of advice was to make sure we know the full context of any particular verse we are about to use before we use it. Meaning we should understand the verses before and after the verse were about to use so we can thoroughly understand it.
Again, you use no scriptures to back your statements or to explain any of the scriptures I use such as 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. The reason is that you can’t.
A Christian is anyone who believes in Jesus Christ and we certainly do. So yes we are Christians.[/quote]
So the Devil/Satan is a Christian? He believes in Jesus Christ. He even believes that he is the Son of God. What makes you different?[/quote]
This is a perfect example of the blind following that you are doing. You don’t even know what you are saying.
You just said, and you have been saying that Jesus is God’s Son, and that he is God. How can you even do that without being blinded by Satan.
Satan’s original fight was with Jehovah and His right to rule. How GREAT he must feel to know that people are giving all this credit to Jesus and worshipping him! Satan is getting what he wants!
There are so many scriptures that are not ambiguous, and that clearly state Jehovah as God. Once again: Psalm 83:18 - That they may know that you, WHOSE NAME IS JEHOVAH, you ALONE are Most High over all the earth. That didn’t state that “you, whose name is Jehovah, you are part of the Most High”.
The road to life in narrow and FEW are the ones finding it. [/quote]
Thank you for your clear and precise bunch of crap. Did I ever say that Jehovah was not a name for God? I am saying that Jesus is another name for God. You are doing the same thing the Pharasees did to Jesus. Luke 11 if you need some scripture to make it easier for you. They claimed that Jesus was acting under the power of Beelzebub. By you stating that we as followers of Jesus Christ our God and Savior, you are preaching under the power of Beelzebub, you have just shown you do not care for Jesus, and have no faith in his power to save. I say to you what Matthew 16:23 states. Look it up, and read the entire verse. It sums up what the Holy Spirit is telling me right now about you and your religion. God Bless you, and I hope your eyes are opened by God/Jehovah/Yahweh/Jesus Christ/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Active Force if that is what you call the Holy Spirit.
. . . wanders into thread . . .looks around . . . scratches head . . . stares in amazement at the verbosity . . . thanks God he is neither Catholic nor Agnostic . . . wanders off in search of a steak . . .
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[/quote]
Can God lie? Can God Sin? Is he above is own laws?[/quote]
And yet you still do not deny and divert responsibilty with questions. Remove yourself from your humanly logic, remove yourself from what you’ve been TOLD to think, rely on your faith, and you can answer those questions by yourself.
I pray you will be shown the way.
[/quote]
Told to think? Really? I just asked 3 questions, and you just say i divert responsibility. No, Jehovah is not Omnipresent. Jesus is not Omnipresent. The Holy Spirit isn’t even a person/being. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jehovah or Jesus are everywhere at the same time. But you feel they are. Must be doctrine you were told by your church, because it can’t be found in the Bible. The Holy Spirit didn’t guide you to that conclusion because that would be different from what the Bible says. [/quote]
So God’s attributes and power are limited to what you can read about in the Bible? Because it doesn’t say it, it’s not true or possible?
You are willingly blind.
This is my last post in this thread.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
You read text through my lens. I don’t think this would be any different. It pulls from worldly sources.
[/quote]
Pardon? What do you mean? What did you think I meant when I said “your lens”? I was referring to the lens of JW teachings. A lens that requires you to read it a certain way, or else.
You skipped over some of my questions as well…
And I didn’t say text in general. I said your literature specifically. And no, I do not read text through your lens. Not your eyes nor your brain that receives what the eyes see. Nor would I see what that literature is saying the same as you, because you have been told how to view it. Your lens requires to many filters.
Worldly sources? Aren’t you guys telling me that we are to not be “of this world”?
Now, go back and answer the hard questions you so easily skipped:
So you remove one of the most important parts of the Bible since it’s a “turn off” and hard to understand, just to make it easier for you to gain members. Ok…
Tell me, then, if the universe is SO logical, why haven’t we unlocked all it’s mysteries? I would say the universe is FILLED with mystical elements.
Tell me, how do you expect to understand a Creator, an Omnipresent being, One who created EVERYTHING, using your human logic? Do you claim to be able to? I believe relying on faith, not logic, is the whole point here.
What is impossible? Are you saying there are things God cannot do because you deem them impossible? You dare put a limitation on the Almighty because you don’t think it’s possible? Very bold, sir.
[/quote]
You didn’t answer some of the questions I asked…and what do you mean by omnipresent, and how do you back that up?[/quote]
That is the most tired way of responding to things you don’t have answer’s for and don’t WANT to answer. These questions were in DIRECT response to statements YOU made. This is no longer about answering or “reconciling” scripture. This is about your true feelings and beliefs about God and what you assume of Him. You took this thread there by claiming certain things regarding HIM to be illogical AND impossible.
Ahh, I just noticed you edited your post. Fortunately I responded before the edit took place. Were you really going to ask me what I mean by Omnipresent? And I need to back up what I mean by Omnipresent? More word playing. Maybe that’s why you removed it.
If you can’t and won’t answer the questions about your assumptions of God’s power, I and any other will have to assume you DO put a limit on his power based on what you feel is illogical and impossible. All because YOUR logic tell you it’s illogical and impossible. And further, that you feel you can understand God (and the universe he created) using your human logic.
[/quote]
Look at the post. I didn’t remove it. I really want to know what you mean by that and where you got it from.[/quote]
And this is the only part of my post you wish to address? Are you sure?[/quote]
As far as the other parts, there is no reason to continue any further. You aren’t changing your mind, and I have done my research into the words of the Bible to make sure I don’t have the wrong idea. You appear to have done the same thing, yet we reach different conclusions.
I feel, if the holy spirit, or Jehovah’s active force, were to guide me, it would have to coincide with his Word the Bible.[/quote]
No reason to go further, eh?
So you DO think you can understand God using your humanly logic. You DO limit God’s power by saying there are things He can’t do because you deem them illogical and impossible. And that all in the universe is understandable through your humanly logic you so pride yourself in. You have not denied this, so it’s apparent you stand behind this.
And you apparently have researched scripture to make sure that this idea is not wrong.
Congratulations, you have just put yourself above all others on this earth. And quite possibly much higher.
[/quote]
Can God lie? Can God Sin? Is he above is own laws?[/quote]
And yet you still do not deny and divert responsibilty with questions. Remove yourself from your humanly logic, remove yourself from what you’ve been TOLD to think, rely on your faith, and you can answer those questions by yourself.
I pray you will be shown the way.
[/quote]
Told to think? Really? I just asked 3 questions, and you just say i divert responsibility. No, Jehovah is not Omnipresent. Jesus is not Omnipresent. The Holy Spirit isn’t even a person/being. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that Jehovah or Jesus are everywhere at the same time. But you feel they are. Must be doctrine you were told by your church, because it can’t be found in the Bible. The Holy Spirit didn’t guide you to that conclusion because that would be different from what the Bible says. [/quote]
So God’s attributes and power are limited to what you can read about in the Bible? Because it doesn’t say it, it’s not true or possible?
You are willingly blind.
This is my last post in this thread.
[/quote]
So it looks like this post is just about dead. Both sides have presented their side with many post to get their point across. So much so that if people were following along it would be easy to get lost in the “verbosity” as someone put it. How can you tell which side is right? Because there is only ONE TRUTH.
Cueball’s statement above is pretty telling. Let me explain why. Cueball states "So God’s attributes and power are limited to what you can read about in the Bible? What’s next is the telling part. He then states "Because it doesn’t say it, it’s not true or possible?
He then goes onto state that “You’re willing Blind,” because one can’t see what the Bible doesn’t say. That statement doesn’t make since. How can one be blind if there is nothing to see? You’re blind if you can’t see something that is there. In other words if the Trinity doctrine is taught in the Bible and there is clear evidence to support it and one ignores that evidence then that person would be “willing Blind.” Trinitarians explain the Trinity teaching by stating that it is mysterious or beyond human understanding because the Bible “DOESN’T SAY” or the teaching is not in the Bible. The New Encyclopedia Britannica states: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.” (1992, Micropedia, Volume 11, page 928). And the New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: “Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.” (1967, Volume XIV, page 299). So the fact that the Bible “DOESN’T SAY” or teach the Trinity does not matter to people who believe in the Trinity because they are taught to accept the teaching based on it being mysterious and beyond human comprehension. Now who truly is blind?
John 1:1 is the main verse Trinitarians base the Trinity doctrine on. John 1:1 begins with the following: “In the beginning the Word was and the Word was with God.” How can the word be with God and God at the same time? John DID NOT SAY “In the beginning the Word was God,” but state “the Word was WITH God.” The sentence ends by stating the “Word was God.” That is what Trinitarian base the teaching on. This is a mistranslation due to the fact that there was not an Indefinate Article in the Greek language at the time the Bible was translated to Latin. So there was not an A after WAS and before god. Had there been an indefinate Article or A in the Greek language the verse would have read “the Word was A god.” Translators who were careful realized this and included this in their translations of the Bible. My Bible is a translation that states the Word was A god. Unfortunately, due to the Trinity belief being the dominant teaching of Christians for centuries, most Bibles do not state this. However, the fact that Jesus was a god or mighty spirit being harmonizes with the rest of the Bible. The New American Bible which is the official Catholic Bible states at Philippians 2:5,6:
“5 Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, 6 Who, though he was IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
So Jesus was in the beginning with God and was A god because he was in “THE FORM OF GOD,” and spirit beings are often called gods.
This is such a dangerous teaching because the largest Christian religion prays and worships Mary because they believe Mary is God’s mother. This is wrong on so many levels. No where in the Bible is Mary held in high esteem or elevated to a superior position. In fact, outside of the Gospels she is only mentioned one other time in Bible at Acts chapter 1. The Christians that formed the congregation or church after Jesus died did not worship Mary or elevate her to a superior position. The Bible clearly states to not make an image of anything and pray to it or worship it and that one should pray to God only.
Now back to being “Willingly Blind.” When one is blind they can’t see something that is right in front of them or they’re unwilling or unable to perceive or understand. When Trinitarians are presented with clear scriptures that specifically address Jesus and God’s relationship and they ignore them–this is willing blind. When a verse such as 1 Corinthians 15:27,28 state that God is going to subject everything to Jesus with the exception of God himself and then Jesus will subject everything that God subjected to him, back to God so God can be everything to all. Or when a scripture such as 1 Corinthians 11:3 states that the head of Jesus is God like the head of man is Jesus. Or Hebrews 10:13 that states Jesus is at God’s right hand in heaven. Clear scriptures that address God and Jesus’ relationship. It’s one thing to not know those scriptures are there; that’s being unwilling blind but when those scriptures are brought to light and and one knows that these scriptures are in the Bible but choose to ignore them–that’s being “WILLINGLY BLIND.”
It’s so important to make sure what you believe is inline with Bible teaching. Bible prophecy shows that we’re living in a period called the LAST DAYS. With the possibility of Noah’s Ark being found and that being on many peoples mind, Jesus links what’s going to happen in the near future with what happened before the flood. Matthew 24:37-39 states:
“37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
Learn how Jesus’ presence coincides with the LAST DAYS and how we are deep into the LAST DAYS. Learn what the Bible really teaches to learn what’s necessary to survive. Learn about the true condition of the dead and what God’s Kingdom will do for humans on earth. I’m sure no one wants to be like the people Jesus describes at Luke 7:21-23 who apparently have faith in Jesus and are surprised when Jesus rejects them at Armageddon. Jesus said that it means everlasting life those taking in knowledge of him and God. So it’s critical to know true and accurate knowledge because it truly means your life.
If anyone has questions you can PM me. If not, when you hear a knock on your door answer it, ask questions and have one of Jehovah’s Witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches from your own Bible.
I have been following this exchange and I must say it has been most enlightening. Thank you.