Catholicism - Heart and Soul of a Great Nation

jakerz96 · April 29, 2010, 4:56pm

Well, I am a latecomer to this thread and no biblical scholar, but I can read and think, but I didn’t read this whole thread as I don’t have time right now, so if this has been brought up I apologize.

In regards to Matthew 16 (Peter the rock)… Jesus and his disciples spoke aramaic and the NT was written in Greek. The relevance of course is petra was the common word for rock, but Peter couldn’t have a feminine name, Petra, so the writer made it Petros (in aramaic Kepha would have been his name and rock).

Second… Just some food for thought as to all this church didn’t exist or scripture must be used to prove everything. Look to scripture by all means and see what it says: 1 Timothy 3:15
If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

If you are an adherent of sola scriptura just ponder a bit on what Paul was saying there. You cannot deny it based on your premise as it is scripture, so what does it mean?

mse2us · April 29, 2010, 8:00pm

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]

And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.

There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?

Why shouldn’t John read this way:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.

Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.

Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]

Cueball before I answer anymore of your questions can you answer my question? I thoroughly answered your question about how could Jesus be used to create everything and not be God. My question is what can you say about the fact that the Bible clearly states at Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 that Jesus was a created?

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else feel free to chime in.

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 8:14pm

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]

And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.

There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?

Why shouldn’t John read this way:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.

Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.

Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]

Cueball before I answer anymore of your questions can you answer my question? I thoroughly answered your question about how could Jesus be used to create everything and not be God. My question is what can you say about the fact that the Bible clearly states at Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 that Jesus was a created?

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else feel free to chime in.[/quote]

Do you beleive that Jesus had skin on before coming to Earth? I am thinking his skin was created. What do you all think?

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 8:33pm

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]

And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.

There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?

Why shouldn’t John read this way:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.

Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.

Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]

Cueball before I answer anymore of your questions can you answer my question? I thoroughly answered your question about how could Jesus be used to create everything and not be God. My question is what can you say about the fact that the Bible clearly states at Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 that Jesus was a created?

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else feel free to chime in.[/quote]

You have stated many times that everything was created through Jesus. Which to me, you are saying that God created everything through Jesus. Jesus did not do the creating. Col 1:16 states that all things were created by him and for him. In verse 15 we were talking about Jesus, so the by him and for him is still Jesus. So your argument is that Jesus created himself. I agree.

What are you trying to get out of Revelation 3:14? Has nothing to do with Jesus. Paul is writing to the angel or bishop of the chruch in Laodicea. If you are refering to the ruler you have stated many time that God is King and not Jesus, so your argument is bad. We on the other hand see that Jesus is God so he is King of everything.

Again you pull a verse out of the Bible and do not read the verses preceding it of after it.

cueball · April 29, 2010, 8:59pm

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]

And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.

There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?

Why shouldn’t John read this way:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.

Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.

Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?[/quote]

Cueball before I answer anymore of your questions can you answer my question? I thoroughly answered your question about how could Jesus be used to create everything and not be God. My question is what can you say about the fact that the Bible clearly states at Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15 that Jesus was a created?

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else feel free to chime in.[/quote]

Sorry, but diverting the topic from meaning of John 1 to “was Jesus created” isn’t going to work. I have never been discussing whether Jesus was created or not. I will be happy to once the meaning of John is agreed upon.

I believe then, your question will be answered automatically.

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:03pm

Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:06pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

Welcome back Honest have not seen you on here for a couple of days.

Which translation are you using again? The New International Version says it how I put it down. Hey we found another word to fight about like John 1:1.

I still have not heard a reply about John 10:33 guys.

[/quote]

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:13pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:15pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:20pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm[/quote]

NIV and King James both say for him and by him. Do you know the group that does that webpage? I have looked through it a couple of times, and when it comes up I go to the other one. The most used translations are the King James and New International Version of the Bible by Protestants. I can not speak for Catholics because I have only one version of the Catholic Bible, and can not remember the version. Got another one there big guy?

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:22pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm[/quote]

John 1:1 is the same for the NIV and King James also. I think my suspicions are being confirmed some more.

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:25pm

You still have not commented on John 10:33. The Jews beleive he is stating he is God and you don’t. Why is that?

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:27pm

Do the same Bible.cc look up for John 10:33? It is very enlightening.

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:30pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm[/quote]

NIV and King James both say for him and by him. Do you know the group that does that webpage? I have looked through it a couple of times, and when it comes up I go to the other one. The most used translations are the King James and New International Version of the Bible by Protestants. I can not speak for Catholics because I have only one version of the Catholic Bible, and can not remember the version. Got another one there big guy?[/quote]

Out of the 17 translations on the website, 7 said “by him and for him” and 10 said “through him and for him.”

Why are we wrong? Because the ones you use say “by him?” More agree with ours.

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:32pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Do the same Bible.cc look up for John 10:33? It is very enlightening.

[/quote]

How is this enlightening?

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:35pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
You still have not commented on John 10:33. The Jews beleive he is stating he is God and you don’t. Why is that?[/quote]

Did the Jews believe he was the Messiah?

mse2us · April 29, 2010, 9:37pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

Jn 14:7-9

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "

This is crystal clear, no ambiguity.

Jn 1:1 is perfectly legit as well. You cannot disregard it simply because it doesn’t agree with you.
[/quote]
You’re right it is crystal clear but this does not mean they are the same. If it did this would contradict Jesus statement at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

Jesus said that “I and the Father are ONE” as Dmaddox pointed out. Jesus explains what he means at John 17:20-22 which states:
“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be ONE. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE.”

So this ONE means that God and Jesus are united in thought and mind so much so that they are ONE and Jesus could make the statement that he has seen me has seen the father. Do you remember the old Army slogan “Army of ONE”?

The U.S. Army used this slogan from 2001-2006. The U.S. Army tried to convey that each individual was not physically the same as the other but they were on the same page, had the same goal and worked together in unison so much so that they were considered ONE. That is what Jesus is talking about in John 17:20-22.

Another point. Have you heard someone use the term “splitting image” to describe a son who not only looks just like his father but acts just like him as well? Paul used a similiar term when he wrote to the Colossians at Colossians 1:15 which states:
“He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”

He doesn’t say he is God he said he is the IMAGE of God. IMAGE here is used as a verb and the definition of image used as a verb is: “to reflect the likeness of; mirror.”

Reflect the likeness or mirror God isexactly what Jesus does and that is why he can say “he who has seen me as seen the father.”

The very few scriptures that people quote to support the Trinity can easily be refuted by other scriptures. None of those scripture are more clear and direct than 1 Corinthians 15:28 where it states that Jesus will submit himself to God. [/quote]

You have now glanced over John 10:33. The Jews beleive he is saying he is God. They are going to stone him because he has told them that he is God. Why can you not see it?

He also calls himself God when the Sanhedren asks if he is the Son of God just before the crucifixtion. He says, “I Am.” This is in all of the 4 Gospels. Any person of Jewish decent will tell you about the story of Moses at the burning bush. Tell them that “I Am” sent you. “I Am” is the name of God.[/quote]
The Jews were going to stone Jesus because he said “I and the Father are One.” They misunderstood what he meant just like you’re misunderstanding what Jesus meant. What Jesus meant is easily explained in John 17:21 and 22 which clearly shows that the Oness he has with God is unity and he prayed that his disciples have the same Oness or unity that he and his father have.

You state that I can not see. I can see clearly because I’m not just looking at the John 10:30 where Jesus states “I and the Father are One.” I’m showing clear verses that explain what Jesus meant. Just because the Jews thought that he said he was God does not make it true. The Jews who rejected Jesus were 100% wrong and they would not have been able to understand what Jesus meant because as we discussed before God blinded their minds and hearts.

They aren’t going to stone Jesus because he said he was God. You’re twisting it. Again, they were going to stone him because he said “I and the Father are one,” they misunderstood what he meant. At John 10:36 Jesus ask the people who are about to stone him the following: “do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, You blaspheme, because I said, I AM GOD’S SON?” He never said he was God. Why can’t YOU see that?

Your last statement about Jesus saying “I am” when the mob approached him in the garden of Gethsemane. I’ve heard that before and that has to be the weakest scriptural reasoning I’ve every heard to support the Trinity. Exodus 3:14 states:
"But Moses said to God, ‘If I come to the Israelites and say to them, “The God of your ancestors has sent me to you”, and they ask me, “What is his name?” what shall I say to them?’ 14God said to Moses, ‘I am who I am.’ He said further, 'Thus you shall say to the Israelites, “I am has sent me to you.”

John 18:5 states:
Jesus, therefore, knowing all the things coming upon him, went forth and said to them: “Whom are YOU looking for?” 5 They answered him: “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them: “I am he.” Now Judas, his betrayer, was also standing with them."

Are you really saying that because God said his name is “I am who I am” and because Jesus answered “I am” when they clearly asked him if he was Jesus the Nazarene that they are the same? WOW! That makes no sense at all. Do I really have to explain how that does not mean they are the same?

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:41pm

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm[/quote]

NIV and King James both say for him and by him. Do you know the group that does that webpage? I have looked through it a couple of times, and when it comes up I go to the other one. The most used translations are the King James and New International Version of the Bible by Protestants. I can not speak for Catholics because I have only one version of the Catholic Bible, and can not remember the version. Got another one there big guy?[/quote]

Out of the 17 translations on the website, 7 said “by him and for him” and 10 said “through him and for him.”

Why are we wrong? Because the ones you use say “by him?” More agree with ours.[/quote]

I wish it more agreed with yours. Your translation just changes everything to twist the truth. Now I understand why we are so far off from each other. Our bible came from the early church, and your bible came from who knows where.

Again I love how your translation changes the meaning of John 10:33. The Bible.cc shows that all 17 translations show that the Jews beleived Jesus to have claimed to be God. As I stated above, the Jews are Monotheistic so by Jesus claiming to be a god, as your translation says, would not have caused them to want to kill him. They would have just thrown him out of town, and everyone would stop listening to him. They actually beleive that Jesus claimed to be Yahweh. You can not refute this verse in your old try and twist the story way. Look at these other translations, well the greek says this. This verse in John 10:33 shows that even if Jesus stated he was the Son of God, Son of Man, or what ever you say. The Jews beleived those words to mean that Jesus is claiming he is Yahweh, Jehovah, I AM, and God. By saying he is not God you are denying his divinity, and everything he did for all of us.

If you are willing to repent and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ please talk with God. He forgives all sins, and will give you the Heavenly Hope you so long for. God wants you to be with him in Truth.

You do not care for what I say, but may God Bless you two, and open your hearts to the truth.

honest_lifter · April 29, 2010, 9:42pm

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Just a correction to dmaddox:

Col 1:16 DOES NOT say “BY him and for him.” It says “THROUGH him and for him.”

Rev 3:14 - It does have to do with Jesus

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

King James even says by him and for him. Hmmmmm. Again my suspicions have been confirmed. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have made their own Translation to confirm their beliefs.

[/quote]

Looks like we have a bunch of discrepencies in translations guys. You might want to go to the King James Version the original version used by the Jehovahs Witnesses. At least we would be playing with the same book.
[/quote]
http://bible.cc/colossians/1-16.htm[/quote]

John 1:1 is the same for the NIV and King James also. I think my suspicions are being confirmed some more.[/quote]

If you would like, you could explain to me how the Greek can be translated to English. When you understand that, which is very doable, then please let me know.

dmaddox · April 29, 2010, 9:47pm