Catholicism - Heart and Soul of a Great Nation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
60% of my son’s Plebe class at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis are Catholic. Six members of the Supreme Court are Catholic. Hmmm…maybe there’s a reason why Washington DC is in Maryland, the Catholic state! :wink:

From a private e-mail…

"The Church educates 2.6 million children per day, saving taxpayers 18 billion per year. 92% of these students graduate from high school.

In a study by the United Methodist Church, 10% of clergy have been pedophiles. 1.7% of priests have been pedophiles. This is not an exclusive Catholic problem. 12% of Protestant clergy admitted to having sexual relations with members of their congregation.

The Catholic church runs 230 hospitals nationwide. One in five patients is treated at a Catholic hospital."

— this was compiled by a Jewish businessman here in Cleveland. I don’t know if his numbers are perfect.

Discuss?[/quote]

The catholic church does good work…

AND REFUSES TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY OR APPROPRIATE ACTION FOR PREVENTABLE CRIMES THAT CAN BE TRACED DIRECTLY TO THE FUCKING POPE!!!.

FUCK!

182

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.

Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9. If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.[/quote]
Again, none of the scriptures you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship. This is what I can’t understand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 SPECIFICALLY TALKS about God’s and Jesus relationship AND DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO, none of the scriptures you quoted above compare thier relationship. Why use scriptures such as all of the ones you quoted above to base your belief when none of them SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship by directly stating the difference between the two. When God inspired Paul to write to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” What do you think God wants readers to know? Do you think that God is lying or misleading people by stating that he is the head of Jesus or that Jesus will submit to him.

When God inspired the Bible writers to write ALL of the scriptures that you quoted above the purpose of the scripture weren’t to identify or discuss God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I quoted above.

Your reasoning is way off as regards to John 12:37-41. At Isaiah 6:10 it states:
"Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.
The reason the prophecy was fulfilled is because the Pharisee’s did not believe Jesus was the Messiah even though he peformed miracles right in front of their eyes. This was because God made their hearts unreceptive, ears unresponsive.

As far as Jesus forgiving sins, again this does not show Jesus is God. Of course Jesus can forgive sins–that was one of the main reasons Jesus came to earth. His sacrifice enables peoples who exercise faith in Jesus to have thier sins FORGIVEN. You said “also correctly pointed out by the Pharisee.” Are you serious. The Pharisee’s WRONGLY thought that Jesus could not forgive sins. You’re thinking like the Pharisee’s who had their hearts and minds made unreceptive by God.

None of the scriptures you quoted about God reading peoples thoughts state that ONLY God can read peoples thoughts . Those verses just state that God can read thoughts and has read the thoughts of men. When Jesus was baptized God’s Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down upon Jesus and gave him power. Being able to discern one’s thoughts was one of the abilities.

Again, I’m going to keep on this point, none of those scriptures SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS JESUS AND GOD’S RELATIONSHIP AND DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO. Why ignore something clear and direct and go with some that is not clear and direct.

The scriptures you quoted above are some of the weakest I’ve seen to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

We are finally getting somewhere, and maybe I am just picking up on this so sorry if I am a little slow.

In having a relationship there would have to be two people. Jesus and God are one in the same so there is no relationship. “I am in him and he is in me.” They are the same being, creature, person how ever you want to distinguish it. How can God be both in heaven and on earth at the same time? He is Omniprescent. He can be everywhere at the same time. Until you get this you will always think that God and Jesus are two separate dieties. They are one.

We Christians understand this that is why we point out the scriptures that we do. The scriptures to us are very clear and are specific. Jesus has humbled himself to be sin. God can not be near sin, so Jesus is all human and all God. He has to be to be a perfect sacrific. No other blood can completely wash away sin, only the blood of God can do that. An angel is a created being, so can not be perfect as seen in what demons have become. God is the only perfect being.[/quote]
Wow! I see that you’re really trying to use scripture to back the trinity doctrine but the scripture you used above can be easily explained. “I am in him and he is in me” is from John 17:21 and you took it out of context. If you would have read a little more than you would have clearly understood what he was talking about.

John 17:20-23 reads:
20 "I do not pray only for them. I pray also for those who will believe in me because of their message. 21 Father, I PRAY ALL OF THEM WILL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. I WANT THEM ALSO TO BE IN US. Then the world will believe that you have sent me.
22 “I have given them the glory you gave me. I did this SO THEY WOULD BE ONE, JUST AS WE ARE ONE. 23 I WILL BE IN THEM, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME. I want them to be brought together perfectly AS ONE. This will let the world know that you sent me. It will also show the world that you have loved those you gave me, just as you have loved me.”

So when Jesus says that he wants his disciples TO BE IN US, does that mean that his disciples are part of the Trinity? Of course not. He wants them to be ONE, united in mind and thought just like Jesus and God are ONE or united in mind and thought. Many people have tried to use that scripture or the scriptures when Jesus said “I and the Father are one” to prove that God and Jesus are the same, but the scriptures John 17:20-23 clearly explain what Jesus meant by this.

As far as your last paragraph…I’m not sure where to begin. Yes, a perfect sacrifice was needed but not the sacrifice of God. 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 states:
“45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.”

Here Jesus is called the LAST ADAM. Why is he called the LAST ADAM? It’s because Jesus’ death pays the penalty that God sentenced ADAM to which is death and he becomes the life giver that the FIRST ADAM should have been. His sacrifice enables humans to not have to pay the penalty for sinning which is death and enables humans to have everlasting life. As the above verses point out, Adam was just a perfect MAN made from the dust, so all that was needed to become the LAST ADAM was another perfect human. That’s why Jesus was born from a human as a baby and grew up to be a perfect MAN. He doesn’t have to be all human and all God to wash away sin (that doesn’t even make sense) he had to be at the same level as Adam which is just a PERFECT MAN.

Because God endowed his spirit creatures and humans to have free will is the reason that perfect ADAM and spirit creatures in heaven sin.

You say an angel is a created being…Dmaddox…you don’t know that Jesus is a created being?

Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

183

[quote]mse2us wrote:
[
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in LaÃ???Ã??Ã?·oÃ???Ã??Ã?·diÃ???Ã??Ã?·ceÃ???Ã??Ã?´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

mse2us, AFTER you have addressed my previous post, and I hope you do, please address this.

In your New World Translation, John 1:1-3

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

After stating the Word was a god, it states this one was in the beginning with God and all things came into existence through him. This clearly says that through the Word (which was a god) all things came into existence. This says then that not through “God” but “a god” all things came into existence.

If you believe that “God” is the Creator of all things, then you MUST believe that God and the “Word” (that is a god) are in fact the same. Otherwise, “God” isn’t the Creator, and “a god” is.

What do you say to this?

184

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
[
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in LaÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·oÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·diÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·ceÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

mse2us, AFTER you have addressed my previous post, and I hope you do, please address this.

In your New World Translation, John 1:1-3

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

After stating the Word was a god, it states this one was in the beginning with God and all things came into existence through him. This clearly says that through the Word (which was a god) all things came into existence. This says then that not through “God” but “a god” all things came into existence.

If you believe that “God” is the Creator of all things, then you MUST believe that God and the “Word” (that is a god) are in fact the same. Otherwise, “God” isn’t the Creator, and “a god” is.

What do you say to this?[/quote]

SPOILER

god does not exist
the cake is a lie

185

[quote]toolshed wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
[
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in LaÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·oÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·diÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·ceÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

mse2us, AFTER you have addressed my previous post, and I hope you do, please address this.

In your New World Translation, John 1:1-3

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

After stating the Word was a god, it states this one was in the beginning with God and all things came into existence through him. This clearly says that through the Word (which was a god) all things came into existence. This says then that not through “God” but “a god” all things came into existence.

If you believe that “God” is the Creator of all things, then you MUST believe that God and the “Word” (that is a god) are in fact the same. Otherwise, “God” isn’t the Creator, and “a god” is.

What do you say to this?[/quote]

SPOILER

god does not exist
the cake is a lie
[/quote]

Cool story, Bro.

186

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]toolshed wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
[
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in LaÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·oÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·diÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·ceÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

mse2us, AFTER you have addressed my previous post, and I hope you do, please address this.

In your New World Translation, John 1:1-3

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

After stating the Word was a god, it states this one was in the beginning with God and all things came into existence through him. This clearly says that through the Word (which was a god) all things came into existence. This says then that not through “God” but “a god” all things came into existence.

If you believe that “God” is the Creator of all things, then you MUST believe that God and the “Word” (that is a god) are in fact the same. Otherwise, “God” isn’t the Creator, and “a god” is.

What do you say to this?[/quote]

SPOILER

god does not exist
the cake is a lie
[/quote]

Cool story, Bro.[/quote]

the one about the jewish zombie who is his own father is way cooler

187

[quote]toolshed wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]toolshed wrote:

SPOILER

god does not exist
the cake is a lie
[/quote]

Cool story, Bro.[/quote]

the one about the jewish zombie who is his own father is way cooler
[/quote]

I can only imagine. Thanks for sharing.

188

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.

Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9. If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.[/quote]
Again, none of the scriptures you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship. This is what I can’t understand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 SPECIFICALLY TALKS about God’s and Jesus relationship AND DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO, none of the scriptures you quoted above compare thier relationship. Why use scriptures such as all of the ones you quoted above to base your belief when none of them SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship by directly stating the difference between the two. When God inspired Paul to write to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” What do you think God wants readers to know? Do you think that God is lying or misleading people by stating that he is the head of Jesus or that Jesus will submit to him.

When God inspired the Bible writers to write ALL of the scriptures that you quoted above the purpose of the scripture weren’t to identify or discuss God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I quoted above.

Your reasoning is way off as regards to John 12:37-41. At Isaiah 6:10 it states:
"Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.
The reason the prophecy was fulfilled is because the Pharisee’s did not believe Jesus was the Messiah even though he peformed miracles right in front of their eyes. This was because God made their hearts unreceptive, ears unresponsive.

As far as Jesus forgiving sins, again this does not show Jesus is God. Of course Jesus can forgive sins–that was one of the main reasons Jesus came to earth. His sacrifice enables peoples who exercise faith in Jesus to have thier sins FORGIVEN. You said “also correctly pointed out by the Pharisee.” Are you serious. The Pharisee’s WRONGLY thought that Jesus could not forgive sins. You’re thinking like the Pharisee’s who had their hearts and minds made unreceptive by God.

None of the scriptures you quoted about God reading peoples thoughts state that ONLY God can read peoples thoughts . Those verses just state that God can read thoughts and has read the thoughts of men. When Jesus was baptized God’s Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down upon Jesus and gave him power. Being able to discern one’s thoughts was one of the abilities.

Again, I’m going to keep on this point, none of those scriptures SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS JESUS AND GOD’S RELATIONSHIP AND DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO. Why ignore something clear and direct and go with some that is not clear and direct.

The scriptures you quoted above are some of the weakest I’ve seen to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

We are finally getting somewhere, and maybe I am just picking up on this so sorry if I am a little slow.

In having a relationship there would have to be two people. Jesus and God are one in the same so there is no relationship. “I am in him and he is in me.” They are the same being, creature, person how ever you want to distinguish it. How can God be both in heaven and on earth at the same time? He is Omniprescent. He can be everywhere at the same time. Until you get this you will always think that God and Jesus are two separate dieties. They are one.

We Christians understand this that is why we point out the scriptures that we do. The scriptures to us are very clear and are specific. Jesus has humbled himself to be sin. God can not be near sin, so Jesus is all human and all God. He has to be to be a perfect sacrific. No other blood can completely wash away sin, only the blood of God can do that. An angel is a created being, so can not be perfect as seen in what demons have become. God is the only perfect being.[/quote]
Wow! I see that you’re really trying to use scripture to back the trinity doctrine but the scripture you used above can be easily explained. “I am in him and he is in me” is from John 17:21 and you took it out of context. If you would have read a little more than you would have clearly understood what he was talking about.

John 17:20-23 reads:
20 "I do not pray only for them. I pray also for those who will believe in me because of their message. 21 Father, I PRAY ALL OF THEM WILL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. I WANT THEM ALSO TO BE IN US. Then the world will believe that you have sent me.
22 “I have given them the glory you gave me. I did this SO THEY WOULD BE ONE, JUST AS WE ARE ONE. 23 I WILL BE IN THEM, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME. I want them to be brought together perfectly AS ONE. This will let the world know that you sent me. It will also show the world that you have loved those you gave me, just as you have loved me.”

So when Jesus says that he wants his disciples TO BE IN US, does that mean that his disciples are part of the Trinity? Of course not. He wants them to be ONE, united in mind and thought just like Jesus and God are ONE or united in mind and thought. Many people have tried to use that scripture or the scriptures when Jesus said “I and the Father are one” to prove that God and Jesus are the same, but the scriptures John 17:20-23 clearly explain what Jesus meant by this.

As far as your last paragraph…I’m not sure where to begin. Yes, a perfect sacrifice was needed but not the sacrifice of God. 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 states:
“45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven.”

Here Jesus is called the LAST ADAM. Why is he called the LAST ADAM? It’s because Jesus’ death pays the penalty that God sentenced ADAM to which is death and he becomes the life giver that the FIRST ADAM should have been. His sacrifice enables humans to not have to pay the penalty for sinning which is death and enables humans to have everlasting life. As the above verses point out, Adam was just a perfect MAN made from the dust, so all that was needed to become the LAST ADAM was another perfect human. That’s why Jesus was born from a human as a baby and grew up to be a perfect MAN. He doesn’t have to be all human and all God to wash away sin (that doesn’t even make sense) he had to be at the same level as Adam which is just a PERFECT MAN.

Because God endowed his spirit creatures and humans to have free will is the reason that perfect ADAM and spirit creatures in heaven sin.

You say an angel is a created being…Dmaddox…you don’t know that Jesus is a created being?

Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

You are so confused, you can not even see what is right in front of your face. May God be with you in the afterlife my friend. I have already said my peace. From now on please claim your true identity when you post on a forum. Do not lead people astray by saying you are a Christian.

Maybe you could answer cueball’s questions. In the begining was the Word and the Word was God. You do not even dispute that the Word was Jesus Christ. Have a good life, and everytime you post on this internet site, I will be there to tell people who you are. Samething goes for any other JW.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I am glad the JWs have a great revelation that they have that no one else has.

Romans 6:23

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

189

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

I thought you would say that. Cant use John 1:1. You guys changed the translation so that your interpretation will be correct.[/quote]

mse2us, can you please address this for us? Why should John 1:1 not be used?

In The New World Translation John 1:1 says: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

It’s interesting that this appears to state that there was more than one god in the beginning. Emphasized by the fact that “God” is capitalized, while the “god” that was the Word, is not capitalized. Suggesting a “lesser” god.

Do you believe then that there was more than one god in the beginning? This translation seems to suggest a sort of polytheism.

Please explain this.[/quote]
I’m sorry Cueball I didn’t see this reply. The New World Translation is not the only translation that states this. The New English Bible states “that what God was the word was.”
Moffatt and the American Translations state that the “word was divine.”

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god. Since there is confusion over John 1:1 I asked someone to show me a scripture other than John 1:1 the clearly addresses God’s and Jesus’ relationship

God is used in the Bible to denote someone of power. For example, Satan is called a god at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:6.
Paul states something pretty telling about gods at 1 Corinthians 8:5:

“5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”

Thomas calls Jesus god and at Isaiah 9:6 it is prophysied that Jesus would be called “Mighty god,” but never is Jesus called Almighty God of God Almighty.

John 17:5 shows the relationship between Jesus and God in heaven. This verse states:

“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”

So before Jesus came to earth he was at his fathers side which is why John 1:1 states that in the beginning the word was WITH GOD.

When Jesus went back to heaven this same relationship existed. Jesus was at God’s side. There are over 10 scriptures in the Bible that state this. I’ll just list one.

Hebrews 10:12 & 13 states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.”

Cueball according to the Bible Jesus was a spirit being that was the first being God created. He was at his side before he came to earth and at his side when he went back up to heaven.

190

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

I thought you would say that. Cant use John 1:1. You guys changed the translation so that your interpretation will be correct.[/quote]

mse2us, can you please address this for us? Why should John 1:1 not be used?

In The New World Translation John 1:1 says: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

It’s interesting that this appears to state that there was more than one god in the beginning. Emphasized by the fact that “God” is capitalized, while the “god” that was the Word, is not capitalized. Suggesting a “lesser” god.

Do you believe then that there was more than one god in the beginning? This translation seems to suggest a sort of polytheism.

Please explain this.[/quote]
I’m sorry Cueball I didn’t see this reply. The New World Translation is not the only translation that states this. The New English Bible states “that what God was the word was.”
Moffatt and the American Translations state that the “word was divine.”

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god. Since there is confusion over John 1:1 I asked someone to show me a scripture other than John 1:1 the clearly addresses God’s and Jesus’ relationship

God is used in the Bible to denote someone of power. For example, Satan is called a god at 2 Corinthians 4:4. Judges are called gods at Psalms 82:6.
Paul states something pretty telling about gods at 1 Corinthians 8:5:

“5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”

Thomas calls Jesus god and at Isaiah 9:6 it is prophysied that Jesus would be called “Mighty god,” but never is Jesus called Almighty God of God Almighty.

John 17:5 shows the relationship between Jesus and God in heaven. This verse states:

“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”

So before Jesus came to earth he was at his fathers side which is why John 1:1 states that in the beginning the word was WITH GOD.

When Jesus went back to heaven this same relationship existed. Jesus was at God’s side. There are over 10 scriptures in the Bible that state this. I’ll just list one.

Hebrews 10:12 & 13 states:
“But this man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.”

Cueball according to the Bible Jesus was a spirit being that was the first being God created. He was at his side before he came to earth and at his side when he went back up to heaven.[/quote]

I will reply to this tomorrow. Have a good night.

191

I am going to say something else. Again I asked God to show me a verse or a group of verses that show that Jesus was saying he is God. God showed me something different. This does not come out of the mouth of Jesus, but out of the mouth’s of the people he was preaching to, the Jews. A little background first. Jesus was performing miracles, and stating he was the Son of Man and the Son of God.

John 10:33

“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

I find this very amazing. If what you say is true Jehovah’s witnesses, Jesus never claimed to be God. He is just an angel. Now lets look at what Jesus said out of his own mouth to make the Jews believe this. If we look at verse 30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.”

This is when they pick up stones to stone him. I guess these people are not as knowledgable about the Bible as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They lived out the scripture. These Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying. About being the Son of Man and the Son of God, and being the Messiah. He stated that he is “God.”

May your eyes be opened by the Word of God.

192

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.

Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9.

If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.[/quote]

Again, none of the scriptures you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship. This is what I can’t understand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 SPECIFICALLY TALKS about God’s and Jesus relationship AND DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO, none of the scriptures you quoted above compare thier relationship.

Why use scriptures such as all of the ones you quoted above to base your belief when none of them SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship by directly stating the difference between the two. When God inspired Paul to write to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:

“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” What do you think God wants readers to know? Do you think that God is lying or misleading people by stating that he is the head of Jesus or that Jesus will submit to him.

When God inspired the Bible writers to write ALL of the scriptures that you quoted above the purpose of the scripture weren’t to identify or discuss God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I quoted above.

Your reasoning is way off as regards to John 12:37-41. At Isaiah 6:10 it states:
"Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.

The reason the prophecy was fulfilled is because the Pharisee’s did not believe Jesus was the Messiah even though he peformed miracles right in front of their eyes. This was because God made their hearts unreceptive, ears unresponsive.

As far as Jesus forgiving sins, again this does not show Jesus is God. Of course Jesus can forgive sins–that was one of the main reasons Jesus came to earth. His sacrifice enables peoples who exercise faith in Jesus to have thier sins FORGIVEN.

You said “also correctly pointed out by the Pharisee.” Are you serious. The Pharisee’s WRONGLY thought that Jesus could not forgive sins. You’re thinking like the Pharisee’s who had their hearts and minds made unreceptive by God.

None of the scriptures you quoted about God reading peoples thoughts state that ONLY God can read peoples thoughts . Those verses just state that God can read thoughts and has read the thoughts of men. When Jesus was baptized God’s Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down upon Jesus and gave him power. Being able to discern one’s thoughts was one of the abilities.

Again, I’m going to keep on this point, none of those scriptures SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS JESUS AND GOD’S RELATIONSHIP AND DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO. Why ignore something clear and direct and go with some that is not clear and direct.

The scriptures you quoted above are some of the weakest I’ve seen to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]

We are finally getting somewhere, and maybe I am just picking up on this so sorry if I am a little slow.

In having a relationship there would have to be two people. Jesus and God are one in the same so there is no relationship. “I am in him and he is in me.” They are the same being, creature, person how ever you want to distinguish it.

How can God be both in heaven and on earth at the same time? He is Omniprescent. He can be everywhere at the same time. Until you get this you will always think that God and Jesus are two separate dieties. They are one.

We Christians understand this that is why we point out the scriptures that we do. The scriptures to us are very clear and are specific. Jesus has humbled himself to be sin. God can not be near sin, so Jesus is all human and all God.

He has to be to be a perfect sacrific. No other blood can completely wash away sin, only the blood of God can do that. An angel is a created being, so can not be perfect as seen in what demons have become. God is the only perfect being.[/quote]

Wow! I see that you’re really trying to use scripture to back the trinity doctrine but the scripture you used above can be easily explained. “I am in him and he is in me” is from John 17:21 and you took it out of context. If you would have read a little more than you would have clearly understood what he was talking about.

John 17:20-23 reads:
20 "I do not pray only for them. I pray also for those who will believe in me because of their message. 21 Father, I PRAY ALL OF THEM WILL BE ONE, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. I WANT THEM ALSO TO BE IN US. Then the world will believe that you have sent me.

22 “I have given them the glory you gave me. I did this SO THEY WOULD BE ONE, JUST AS WE ARE ONE. 23 I WILL BE IN THEM, JUST AS YOU ARE IN ME. I want them to be brought together perfectly AS ONE. This will let the world know that you sent me. It will also show the world that you have loved those you gave me, just as you have loved me.”

So when Jesus says that he wants his disciples TO BE IN US, does that mean that his disciples are part of the Trinity? Of course not. He wants them to be ONE, united in mind and thought just like Jesus and God are ONE or united in mind and thought.

Many people have tried to use that scripture or the scriptures when Jesus said “I and the Father are one” to prove that God and Jesus are the same, but the scriptures John 17:20-23 clearly explain what Jesus meant by this.

As far as your last paragraph…I’m not sure where to begin. Yes, a perfect sacrifice was needed but not the sacrifice of God. 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 states:
"45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.”

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven."

Here Jesus is called the LAST ADAM. Why is he called the LAST ADAM? It’s because Jesus’ death pays the penalty that God sentenced ADAM to which is death and he becomes the life giver that the FIRST ADAM should have been.

His sacrifice enables humans to not have to pay the penalty for sinning which is death and enables humans to have everlasting life. As the above verses point out, Adam was just a perfect MAN made from the dust, so all that was needed to become the LAST ADAM was another perfect human.

That’s why Jesus was born from a human as a baby and grew up to be a perfect MAN. He doesn’t have to be all human and all God to wash away sin (that doesn’t even make sense) he had to be at the same level as Adam which is just a PERFECT MAN.

Because God endowed his spirit creatures and humans to have free will is the reason that perfect ADAM and spirit creatures in heaven sin.

You say an angel is a created being…Dmaddox…you don’t know that Jesus is a created being?

Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

You are so confused, you can not even see what is right in front of your face. May God be with you in the afterlife my friend. I have already said my peace. From now on please claim your true identity when you post on a forum. Do not lead people astray by saying you are a Christian.

Maybe you could answer cueball’s questions. In the begining was the Word and the Word was God. You do not even dispute that the Word was Jesus Christ. Have a good life, and everytime you post on this internet site, I will be there to tell people who you are. Samething goes for any other JW.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10

7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I am glad the JWs have a great revelation that they have that no one else has.

Romans 6:23

23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[/quote]
LOL! I’m confused and can’t see what in front of me. Are you serious? You make a statement that Jesus is all human and all God but provide no scriptures to back up that statement.

You take a verse stating “I am in him and he is in me” out of context to try to back your belief. I show several verses that show the full context of that statement which show that Jesus wants his disciples to be in him and God, like they are in each other. Which means Jesus wants his disciples to be ONE or united in mind and thought.

You then make a statement that Jesus was not created. To the contrary, I show two scriptures that clearly show JESUS WAS CREATED. Instead of saying “I did not know those scriptures were there let me do some more research,” or at least trying to explain those scriptures,you go on a rant about me being confused and not being able to see what’s in front of my face.

Now who is the one that’s confused and can’t see what’s in front of his face? It clearly is you.

193

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

Jn 14:7-9

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "

This is crystal clear, no ambiguity.

Jn 1:1 is perfectly legit as well. You cannot disregard it simply because it doesn’t agree with you.

194

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
60% of my son’s Plebe class at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis are Catholic. Six members of the Supreme Court are Catholic. Hmmm…maybe there’s a reason why Washington DC is in Maryland, the Catholic state! :wink:

From a private e-mail…

"The Church educates 2.6 million children per day, saving taxpayers 18 billion per year. 92% of these students graduate from high school.

In a study by the United Methodist Church, 10% of clergy have been pedophiles. 1.7% of priests have been pedophiles. This is not an exclusive Catholic problem. 12% of Protestant clergy admitted to having sexual relations with members of their congregation.

The Catholic church runs 230 hospitals nationwide. One in five patients is treated at a Catholic hospital."

— this was compiled by a Jewish businessman here in Cleveland. I don’t know if his numbers are perfect.

Discuss?[/quote]

The catholic church does good work…

AND REFUSES TO TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY OR APPROPRIATE ACTION FOR PREVENTABLE CRIMES THAT CAN BE TRACED DIRECTLY TO THE FUCKING POPE!!!.

FUCK![/quote]

NO IT CANNOT…All the claims and lawsuits have been filed by this asshole. He has stirred all the media coverage, with which the media has been completely complicit even with out any evidence.

http://www.andersonadvocates.com/NewsListing.aspx?ID=253

This guy is a one man wrecking crew…His mission is to attack the church under any circumstance…It gives him lots of attention and money.

195

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
I am going to say something else. Again I asked God to show me a verse or a group of verses that show that Jesus was saying he is God. God showed me something different.

This does not come out of the mouth of Jesus, but out of the mouth’s of the people he was preaching to, the Jews. A little background first. Jesus was performing miracles, and stating he was the Son of Man and the Son of God.

John 10:33

“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

I find this very amazing. If what you say is true Jehovah’s witnesses, Jesus never claimed to be God. He is just an angel. Now lets look at what Jesus said out of his own mouth to make the Jews believe this. If we look at verse 30 Jesus says, “I and the Father are one.”

This is when they pick up stones to stone him. I guess these people are not as knowledgable about the Bible as the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They lived out the scripture. These Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying. About being the Son of Man and the Son of God, and being the Messiah. He stated that he is “God.”

May your eyes be opened by the Word of God.[/quote]

How about a little more. The people of Jesus’s time knew what he was saying when he said Son of Man, and Son of God, that he is the Messiah. You do not claim to dissagree on this point. The problem is the people of that time knew this meant he was God.

They were Monotheistic so please do not bring out that they said he was a god. They only knew one God, and that is Yahweh. The disciples also knew what all this meant. That is the tradition, trinity, that is passed down to us by the Chruch. The disciples you also agree never led the people astray with false prophecies.

Now lets look at what you say. You have no ties to the apostles, your new knowledge was founded in the late 1800’s by a man who falsely prophesied about the coming of Jesus in 1914. He also believed that the Pyramid’s in Giza were as equally Holy as the Temple in Jerusalem. Both doctrines were changed after his death so that the people would continue to be controlled.

I empathize with you, because if you believe what I have told you, you will be casted out of a group of people. You will be on your own, and they will never speak to you again. I have no doubt that you love them and they love you.

The question is who do you love the most? People leave their families because of the Gospel. Look at the disciples of Jesus. They left everything to follow him. They even died a Martyrs death just because of what they beleived. I have not had to give up this much, but please see the truth that is in Jesus Christ, the one true God.

196

[quote]cueball wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:
[
Colossians 1:15 states:
“15 He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.”

Revelation 3:14 states:
“And to the angel of the congregation in LaÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?·oÃ?´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF CREATION BY GOD.”

As you can see Jesus was a created being. The first thing that God created was Jesus in his heavenly position.

So how can Jesus be God if at one time he did not exist?

[/quote]

mse2us, AFTER you have addressed my previous post, and I hope you do, please address this.

In your New World Translation, John 1:1-3

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

After stating the Word was a god, it states this one was in the beginning with God and all things came into existence through him. This clearly says that through the Word (which was a god) all things came into existence. This says then that not through “God” but “a god” all things came into existence.

If you believe that “God” is the Creator of all things, then you MUST believe that God and the “Word” (that is a god) are in fact the same. Otherwise, “God” isn’t the Creator, and “a god” is.

What do you say to this?[/quote]
Good question man. When I replied to your previous question I used 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 which states:
“5 For even though there are those who are called gods whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords, 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.”

Did you notice verse 6? “OUT OF WHOM ALL THINGS ARE” IS attributed to God. THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS ARE is attributed to Jesus. Can you see the distinction?

Colossian 1:15-17 states:
"He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities.

All other things have been created THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM. 17 Also, he is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist."

John 1:3 states:
“All things came into existence THROUGH him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”

So Jesus was an agent or instrument THROUGH whom God worked to create everything in existence. That is why Jesus is called THE ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON. Jesus is the only thing God directly created; everything else God used Jesus to create.

Are there any other scriptures in the Bible that put this together a little more clearly? Thankfully yes: Proverbs 8:22-30.

Before I quote that scripture, I’ll quote several scriptures that show Jesus is called WISDOM.

1 Corinthians 1:24 and 30 state:
“however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the WISDOM of God.”
verse 30:
“But it is due to him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become to us WISDOM from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom.”

Here Jesus is called the WISDOM of God. At Proverbs 8:22-23 WISDOM is personified and symbolically represent God’s son in his prehuman existence.

Proverbs 8:22-23 states:
"22 God himself PRODUCED ME AS THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAY, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.

25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he PREPARED the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,

28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth,

30 then I came to be beside him as a MASTER WORKER, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

Can you see how thej above verses hamonizes with the scriptures I quoted earlier? Colossians 1:15 states Jesus is the FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION. Proverbs 8:22 states God produced him AS THE BEGINNING OF HIS WAYS.

John 1:3 states that “All things came into existence THROUGH him.” How? Proverbs 8:27-30 states that when God PREPARED, which is to make ready before hand for an approaching event, the heavens and earth, WISDOM which symbolically represent Jesus in his prehuman existence WAS BESIDE HIM AS A MASTER WORKER. That is why Jesus asked God at John 17:5 to glorify him with the glory he had ALONGSIDE God before the world was.

So creation coming into existence THROUGH Jesus does not mean he is God Almighty. Again, God created Jesus before he created anything else and then used Jesus to create everything that came into existence.

I hope that answers your question Cueball.

The next question is: Who was Jesus in his prehuman existence?

197

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

Jn 14:7-9

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "

This is crystal clear, no ambiguity.

Jn 1:1 is perfectly legit as well. You cannot disregard it simply because it doesn’t agree with you.
[/quote]
You’re right it is crystal clear but this does not mean they are the same. If it did this would contradict Jesus statement at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

Jesus said that “I and the Father are ONE” as Dmaddox pointed out. Jesus explains what he means at John 17:20-22 which states:

“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be ONE. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE.”

So this ONE means that God and Jesus are united in thought and mind so much so that they are ONE and Jesus could make the statement that he has seen me has seen the father. Do you remember the old Army slogan “Army of ONE”?

The U.S. Army used this slogan from 2001-2006. The U.S. Army tried to convey that each individual was not physically the same as the other but they were on the same page, had the same goal and worked together in unison so much so that they were considered ONE. That is what Jesus is talking about in John 17:20-22.

Another point. Have you heard someone use the term “splitting image” to describe a son who not only looks just like his father but acts just like him as well? Paul used a similiar term when he wrote to the Colossians at Colossians 1:15 which states:
“He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”

He doesn’t say he is God he said he is the IMAGE of God. IMAGE here is used as a verb and the definition of image used as a verb is: “to reflect the likeness of; mirror.”

Reflect the likeness or mirror God isexactly what Jesus does and that is why he can say “he who has seen me as seen the father.”

The very few scriptures that people quote to support the Trinity can easily be refuted by other scriptures. None of those scripture are more clear and direct than 1 Corinthians 15:28 where it states that Jesus will submit himself to God.

198

[quote]mse2us wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]mse2us wrote:

Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]

Jn 14:7-9

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? "

This is crystal clear, no ambiguity.

Jn 1:1 is perfectly legit as well. You cannot disregard it simply because it doesn’t agree with you.
[/quote]
You’re right it is crystal clear but this does not mean they are the same. If it did this would contradict Jesus statement at John 14:28 when he said “the father is greater than I am.”

Jesus said that “I and the Father are ONE” as Dmaddox pointed out. Jesus explains what he means at John 17:20-22 which states:
“I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be ONE. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be ONE, as we are ONE.”

So this ONE means that God and Jesus are united in thought and mind so much so that they are ONE and Jesus could make the statement that he has seen me has seen the father. Do you remember the old Army slogan “Army of ONE”?

The U.S. Army used this slogan from 2001-2006. The U.S. Army tried to convey that each individual was not physically the same as the other but they were on the same page, had the same goal and worked together in unison so much so that they were considered ONE. That is what Jesus is talking about in John 17:20-22.

Another point. Have you heard someone use the term “splitting image” to describe a son who not only looks just like his father but acts just like him as well? Paul used a similiar term when he wrote to the Colossians at Colossians 1:15 which states:
“He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.”

He doesn’t say he is God he said he is the IMAGE of God. IMAGE here is used as a verb and the definition of image used as a verb is: “to reflect the likeness of; mirror.”

Reflect the likeness or mirror God isexactly what Jesus does and that is why he can say “he who has seen me as seen the father.”

The very few scriptures that people quote to support the Trinity can easily be refuted by other scriptures. None of those scripture are more clear and direct than 1 Corinthians 15:28 where it states that Jesus will submit himself to God. [/quote]

You have now glanced over John 10:33. The Jews beleive he is saying he is God. They are going to stone him because he has told them that he is God. Why can you not see it?

He also calls himself God when the Sanhedren asks if he is the Son of God just before the crucifixtion. He says, “I Am.” This is in all of the 4 Gospels. Any person of Jewish decent will tell you about the story of Moses at the burning bush. Tell them that “I Am” sent you. “I Am” is the name of God.

199

[quote]mse2us wrote:

The reason that there is confusion over this verse is because of the fact that in Kione or what is the Greek language today there was not an indefinate article. So the word A was left out before the lower case god.[/quote]

And who has determined there SHOULD BE an indefinite article in that verse, and also that the word “god” SHOULD BE lower case when it appears after capitalized “Word” in this verse: “and the Word was a god”.

There are many translations out there. And MANY use “and the Word was God”. Are you saying that by some reason, every translation that uses that wording and capitalization got it wrong? Am I to assume you feel that your translator for the NWT know more about Greek language than ANY other translator?

Why shouldn’t John read this way:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with a god, and the Word was a god.

Please show me by what authority and reasoning the NWT is MORE correct than the numerous translations stating it differently.

Also, are we in agreement that regardless of being capitalized or not, the “god” that comes after- “and the Word was”-is referring to Jesus?

200

mse2us,

You seem to be missing the fact that it was Jesus as a man who states the Father is greater than I am. He was being humble. Of course the Father would be greater than Him at the time. The Father was not bound by flesh as he was.