[quote]espenl wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
What makes the 144,000 so special that they can go to heaven, but the rest of you all stay on earth? That makes no sense to me. [/quote]
Don’t bring up sense in a thread about religion.
[/quote]
So are you picking up any good information. Good to see you lurking around the religious threads.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So are you picking up any good information. Good to see you lurking around the religious threads.[/quote]
Apparently all the good seats are taken, so I am going to become dust. That is what I have picked up.
[quote]espenl wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So are you picking up any good information. Good to see you lurking around the religious threads.[/quote]
Apparently all the good seats are taken, so I am going to become dust. That is what I have picked up.[/quote]
lol.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So Christians (Catholics and Protestants) will not go to heaven? In fact they will not even stay on earth? My brothers and I will just become dust.
What makes the 144,000 so special that they can go to heaven, but the rest of you all stay on earth? That makes no sense to me. [/quote]
I’ll use the Bible and try to explain this in as few words as possible. I know my really long post make them difficult to read (they always seem so much shorter in my head).
In the beginning the earth was directly linked to God’s purpose for humans. Psalms 115:16 states: “As regards the heavens, to God the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men.”
He created humans to live on earth and not in heaven. AT Genesis 1:28 he commissioned the first human pair to expand the garden of Eden so that it would eventually cover the whole earth. Had they not sinned and death entered the picture the whole earth would be filled with perfect humans that WOULD NEVER DIE. That was God’s original will or purpose for humans. Jesus told us to pray that his will be done on earth.
I’m sure you’re familiar with Psalms 37:11 which states that the meek will inherit the earth. Psalms 37:29 states that the righteous will possess the earth and reside FOREVER UPON IT.
Some people will say that those verses are talking about in heaven. That is wrong. I’ll get to that later.
Isaiah 45:18 states:
"The Lord created the heavens. He is God. He formed the earth and made it. He set it firmly in place. He didn’t create it to be empty. Instead, he formed it for people to live on. He says, “I am the Lord. There is no other Lord.”
Ecclesiastes 1:4 states: “A generation is going, and a generation is coming; but the earth is standing even to time indefinite.”
So the Bible is clear that the earth was made for humans, the people God deems as righteous will possess the earth and remain on it forever and the earth will never be destroyed. These are promises made by God and the Bible ensures us that promises God makes are inevitable to happen. Using the natural water cycle as in illustration Isaiah 55:10,11 states:
“For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, 11 so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.”
If those promises about the earth do not come true then God would be lying and the Bible states that it is impossible for God to lie.
Once Jesus died and went back to heaven his death enabled the way for humans to go to heaven. But they go to heaven for a SPECIFIC ROLE.
During the sermon on the mount Jesus mentions TWO DIFFERENT HOPES: AN EARTHLY HOPE AND A HEAVENLY HOPE. At Matthew 5:3 he states:â??Happy are those conscious of their spiritual need, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them." This is the heavenly hope. Notice he calls it a KINGDOM.
Matthew 5:5 states: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.”
This is the earthly hope. Here Jesus is quoting Psalms 37:11. Can you see the distinction and why the earth mentioned in Psalms is the physical planet earth and not heaven?
At Luke 12:32 Jesus states: Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." At this point no number is given but it is clear that it will be LITTLE. Again this is the heavenly hope.
At John 10:16 Jesus states: “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
Those are the people who have the earthly hope which are not part of the LITTLE FLOCK or FOLD that has been approved of being given the KINGDOM.
Revelation 14:1-3 finally reveals the number of people who are in heaven.
“And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.”
Mount Zion is symbolic for heaven. So those verses state that 144,000 are standing with Jesus in heaven with the name of JESUS AND GOD written on thier forehead, only they were able to master a song and that they WERE BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.
Revelation 14:6 talks about the people with the earthly hope:
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people.”
Many people know about those verses but they don’t understand what they mean. Many people feel that these are natural born Jews. Some think that it is poeple from the Jewish faith. This is wrong. The people who are annointed meaning they have a heavenly hope are call the Israel of God this means they are spiritual Israel not the descendants of Abraham that the nation of Israel came out of. The listing of the 12 tribes that the 144,000 would come out of mentioned at Revelation 7:5-8 does not match that of natural Israel mentioned in Numbers chapter 1. Since this reply is getting long I can provide additional scriptures to show that the 144,000 is not natural born Jews.
One more point. The Bible describes the role that people who go to heaven have. Many people believe they will go to heaven to live and be in God’s grace. This is not what the Bible teaches. You noticed that Jesus mentions the term KINGDOM OF THE HEAVEN. In a Kingdom what is done? Ruling is what is done, by way of a goverenment. That is the only reason people go to heaven. Jesus is going to be the King of a heavenly goverenment and he is going to have 144,000 corulers.
Paul mentions this at 2 Timothy 2:12 which states: “if we go on enduring, we shall also rule together as kings.”
Paul talks about ruling as kings when he consoules the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 4:8 which states: “YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings.”
Revelation 5:10 states: "and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.â??
So the Bible teaches that a small number go to heaven for a specific reason which is to be corulers with Jesus. The remaining ones will possess the earth like Jesus mentions at Matthew 5:5.
Dmaddox, we use the whole Bible to back our beliefs and when we put God’s original purpose for humans, the scriptures about people living on earth after the wicked have been removed, the scriptures that state God created the earth for humans to live on, the fact that a small number go to heaven for a specific role and the 144,000 who have distinguishable qualities together we can clearly come up with a Bible doctrine. I know you and most people won’t agree because it is so different than what you were taught but it is in the Bible.
[quote]mcdugga wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]mcdugga wrote:
Pat, some Popes bought their seat. Some Popes were simply the bastard son of the previous Pope. If this represents a holy, apostolic succession to you, ordained and protected by God, then I fear you too may be “drunk with the wine of her fornication”.[/quote]
Incorrect. Here is the list of every Pope, find the one who bought their seat…
That’s not to say that the papacy had not been affected by political corruption and other bad behaviours of various degrees, but the succession is intact and the core dogma of the church has always been protected by the pope and never changed.[/quote]
Quid pro quo:
Alexander was followed by Julius II who purchased the papacy with his own private fortune. He didn’t even pretend to be a Christian. A notorious womanizer who sired any number of bastards, Julius was so eaten away with syphilis that he couldn’t even expose his foot to be kissed.
http://www.rense.com/general63/popo.htm
[/quote]
You take the word of a conspiracy theorist, with no sources and a supposed connection the the “secret Vatican archives”? I guess one of those UFO’s must have picked him up and taken him to the secret Vatican vault.
Your assertion has no credit.
So the corulers are equal to Jesus? That is great. Peter has to humble himself but your 144,000 get to be equal to Jesus? What are the biblical scripture that determines who the 144,000 are? There is only one scripture that states 144,000 and you guys atribute the other verses to the 144,000?
You are correct that the true believers will not beleive this because as seen in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
You dont want to stop at the end of Chapter 4 keep reading on into Chapter 5
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.
The lamb was standing in the middle of the throne. Sarcasim I can not beleive that all these people are worshiping the Lamb that was slain. This is against the Bible according to the ones with knowledge of the 144,000. No more sarcasim They are worshipping the Lamb, Jesus, and giving him glory and calling him, look back to Chapter 4:11. “You are worthy our Lord and God.” They can not be talking about Jesus could they?
Lets now jump down to verse 11 in Chapter 5.
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Can you see that? They did it again. They all worshipped the Lamb again. This time all the angels worshipped him. If only God is able to be worshipped, and all the angels, people in heaven, on earth, and under the earth are worshipping him, it must be that Jesus is God. If people under the earth are dust, then how can dust worship the Lamb/Jesus?
I apologize for the sarcasim, and the long post, but I am trying to get a point across to you. If you take the Bible as a whole it points that Jesus is God. God wants us to walk with him as Adam did in the Garden. Sin separated us from God. God humbled himself and became sin for us, Jesus. God became Jesus. As being humbled Jesus pointed to the Father. Once resurrected he had defeated the gates of Hell/Satan, and took his throne back as seen through out the Bible. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Holy Spirit is God, and God is the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, then Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus. All one in the same.
May the blessing of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be upon you all. God wants to be with all of us, not just an elite group of people that want to rule over the masses. He wants you to know him personally. Spend time in the Word with out any outside distractions. God will reveal his true self to you. Talk with God. He is there for us. It is not easy, and you might lose a lot, but what you gain is more precious than silver or gold.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Dmaddox, we use the whole Bible to back our beliefs and when we put God’s original purpose for humans, the scriptures about people living on earth after the wicked have been removed, the scriptures that state God created the earth for humans to live on, the fact that a small number go to heaven for a specific role and the 144,000 who have distinguishable qualities together we can clearly come up with a Bible doctrine. I know you and most people won’t agree because it is so different than what you were taught but it is in the Bible.[/quote]
“Dmaddox, we use the whole Bible to back our beliefs…” So does Dmaddox, so do we. And you will disagree because of what you’ve been taught. The bible isn’t about who’s in Heaven and whose on Earth. Further, it’s a mathematical and scientific certainty the Earth will not last forever. It will absolutely, beyond the shadow of any doubt, go away. It could be thousands, millions, or even billions of years, but this place will go away. Nothing physical will stay in it’s current form. As the sun dies, so will earth.
You will not find perpetual existence on this planet.
And if I get this body back, I am going to be pissed. I want one with awesome genetics, and a huge dick.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]mcdugga wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]mcdugga wrote:
Pat, some Popes bought their seat. Some Popes were simply the bastard son of the previous Pope. If this represents a holy, apostolic succession to you, ordained and protected by God, then I fear you too may be “drunk with the wine of her fornication”.[/quote]
Incorrect. Here is the list of every Pope, find the one who bought their seat…
That’s not to say that the papacy had not been affected by political corruption and other bad behaviours of various degrees, but the succession is intact and the core dogma of the church has always been protected by the pope and never changed.[/quote]
Quid pro quo:
Alexander was followed by Julius II who purchased the papacy with his own private fortune. He didn’t even pretend to be a Christian. A notorious womanizer who sired any number of bastards, Julius was so eaten away with syphilis that he couldn’t even expose his foot to be kissed.
http://www.rense.com/general63/popo.htm
[/quote]
You take the word of a conspiracy theorist, with no sources and a supposed connection the the “secret Vatican archives”? I guess one of those UFO’s must have picked him up and taken him to the secret Vatican vault.
Your assertion has no credit.[/quote]
From the link you posted:
After the death of Alexander on 18 August, 1503, he returned to Rome on 3 September to take part in the election of the new pope. He was again a strong candidate for the papacy, but his great ambition was not yet to be realized. The sick and aged Francesco Piccolomini ascended the papal throne as Pius III, but died on 18 October, 1503, after a reign of only twenty-six days. Giuliano’s chance of being elected was now better than at any previous election. To ensure his success he made great promises to the cardinals, and did not hesitate to employ bribery. The conclave began on 31 October, and after a few hours the cardinals united their votes on Giuliano, who as pope took the name of Julius II. It was the shortest conclave in the history of the papacy. In the capitulation preceding the election, the following terms were secured by the cardinals: (1) the continuation of the war against the Turks; (2) the restoration of ecclesiastical discipline and the convocation of a general council for that purpose within two years; (3) that no war was to be undertaken with another nation without the consent of two-thirds of the cardinals, who were to be consulted on all important matters, especially concerning the creation of new members for the Sacred College; (4) that the pope with two-thirds of the cardinals were to determine upon the place of the next general council. Such an unlawful restriction of papal rights no pope could tolerate, much less the impatient, irascible, ambitious, and warlike Julius II, whose fearless and awe-inspiring presence gained for him the epithet of pontefice terribile. The chief task of his pontificate he saw in the firm establishment and the extension of the temporal power. For the accomplishment of this task no pope was ever better suited than Julius, whom nature and circumstances had hewn out for a soldier.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So the corulers are equal to Jesus? That is great. Peter has to humble himself but your 144,000 get to be equal to Jesus? What are the biblical scripture that determines who the 144,000 are? There is only one scripture that states 144,000 and you guys atribute the other verses to the 144,000?
You are correct that the true believers will not beleive this because as seen in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
You dont want to stop at the end of Chapter 4 keep reading on into Chapter 5
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.
The lamb was standing in the middle of the throne. Sarcasim I can not beleive that all these people are worshiping the Lamb that was slain. This is against the Bible according to the ones with knowledge of the 144,000. No more sarcasim They are worshipping the Lamb, Jesus, and giving him glory and calling him, look back to Chapter 4:11. “You are worthy our Lord and God.” They can not be talking about Jesus could they?
Lets now jump down to verse 11 in Chapter 5.
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Can you see that? They did it again. They all worshipped the Lamb again. This time all the angels worshipped him. If only God is able to be worshipped, and all the angels, people in heaven, on earth, and under the earth are worshipping him, it must be that Jesus is God. If people under the earth are dust, then how can dust worship the Lamb/Jesus?
I apologize for the sarcasim, and the long post, but I am trying to get a point across to you. If you take the Bible as a whole it points that Jesus is God. God wants us to walk with him as Adam did in the Garden. Sin separated us from God. God humbled himself and became sin for us, Jesus. God became Jesus. As being humbled Jesus pointed to the Father. Once resurrected he had defeated the gates of Hell/Satan, and took his throne back as seen through out the Bible. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Holy Spirit is God, and God is the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, then Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus. All one in the same.
May the blessing of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be upon you all. God wants to be with all of us, not just an elite group of people that want to rule over the masses. He wants you to know him personally. Spend time in the Word with out any outside distractions. God will reveal his true self to you. Talk with God. He is there for us. It is not easy, and you might lose a lot, but what you gain is more precious than silver or gold.[/quote]
What does Peter having to humble himself have to do with who goes to heaven? All of the apostle had the heavenly hope. I clearly showed from the Bible that Jesus said it would be limited in number and the ACTUAL number is not revealed until Revelation. The Bible does not state clearly as to who actually gets to go to heaven. We do know that God lets the person who has the heavenly hope know, but I have not personally asked a person who has the heavenly hope this question.
Your post looks like you’re quoting scripture to support your belief but not one single verse you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES the relationship between God and Jesus. Not one. There are dozens in the Bible that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS their relationship. In one of my post I listed several. This time I’ll just quote one passage that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES the relationship between God and Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26:
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
So according to those scriptures God will subject ALL things to Jesus. So when Jesus is King, yes the angels will bow down to him, yes the four living creatures will bow down to him, yes the 144,000 will bow down to him and pay him tribute WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GOD. The verse not only states that God is the exception to all that’s been made subject to Jesus but it goes a step further and states that Jesus will eventually subject himself to God. Dmaddox, Pat can you see that from those verses? It’s crystal clear. When God inspired Paul to write this letter he wanted the readers to understand that God is not made subject to Jesus and Jesus will subject himself to God. Again this SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THERE RELATIONSHIP AND SHOWS THAT THEY ARE TWO SEPERATE SPIRIT CREATURES. None of the verse that you quoted in your reply do that.
Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
So the corulers are equal to Jesus? That is great. Peter has to humble himself but your 144,000 get to be equal to Jesus? What are the biblical scripture that determines who the 144,000 are? There is only one scripture that states 144,000 and you guys atribute the other verses to the 144,000?
You are correct that the true believers will not beleive this because as seen in Revelation chapters 4 and 5.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."
You dont want to stop at the end of Chapter 4 keep reading on into Chapter 5
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth.
The lamb was standing in the middle of the throne. Sarcasim I can not beleive that all these people are worshiping the Lamb that was slain. This is against the Bible according to the ones with knowledge of the 144,000. No more sarcasim They are worshipping the Lamb, Jesus, and giving him glory and calling him, look back to Chapter 4:11. “You are worthy our Lord and God.” They can not be talking about Jesus could they?
Lets now jump down to verse 11 in Chapter 5.
11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!” 14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Can you see that? They did it again. They all worshipped the Lamb again. This time all the angels worshipped him. If only God is able to be worshipped, and all the angels, people in heaven, on earth, and under the earth are worshipping him, it must be that Jesus is God. If people under the earth are dust, then how can dust worship the Lamb/Jesus?
I apologize for the sarcasim, and the long post, but I am trying to get a point across to you. If you take the Bible as a whole it points that Jesus is God. God wants us to walk with him as Adam did in the Garden. Sin separated us from God. God humbled himself and became sin for us, Jesus. God became Jesus. As being humbled Jesus pointed to the Father. Once resurrected he had defeated the gates of Hell/Satan, and took his throne back as seen through out the Bible. Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Holy Spirit is God, and God is the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, then Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is Jesus. All one in the same.
May the blessing of God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be upon you all. God wants to be with all of us, not just an elite group of people that want to rule over the masses. He wants you to know him personally. Spend time in the Word with out any outside distractions. God will reveal his true self to you. Talk with God. He is there for us. It is not easy, and you might lose a lot, but what you gain is more precious than silver or gold.[/quote]
What does Peter having to humble himself have to do with who goes to heaven? All of the apostle had the heavenly hope. I clearly showed from the Bible that Jesus said it would be limited in number and the ACTUAL number is not revealed until Revelation. The Bible does not state clearly as to who actually gets to go to heaven. We do know that God lets the person who has the heavenly hope know, but I have not personally asked a person who has the heavenly hope this question.
Your post looks like you’re quoting scripture to support your belief but not one single verse you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES the relationship between God and Jesus. Not one. There are dozens in the Bible that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS their relationship. In one of my post I listed several. This time I’ll just quote one passage that SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES the relationship between God and Jesus.
1 Corinthians 15:24-26:
“Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God subjected all things under his feet. But when he says that all things have been subjected, it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
So according to those scriptures God will subject ALL things to Jesus. So when Jesus is King, yes the angels will bow down to him, yes the four living creatures will bow down to him, yes the 144,000 will bow down to him and pay him tribute WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GOD. The verse not only states that God is the exception to all that’s been made subject to Jesus but it goes a step further and states that Jesus will eventually subject himself to God. Dmaddox, Pat can you see that from those verses? It’s crystal clear. When God inspired Paul to write this letter he wanted the readers to understand that God is not made subject to Jesus and Jesus will subject himself to God. Again this SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS THERE RELATIONSHIP AND SHOWS THAT THEY ARE TWO SEPERATE SPIRIT CREATURES. None of the verse that you quoted in your reply do that.
Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]
I thought you would say that. Cant use John 1:1. You guys changed the translation so that your interpretation will be correct. Good call. Invented in the late 1800’s, and change the translation in the 1900’s to say exactly what you want it to say. Oh an by the way what happens when all the heavenly hope people are dead before the returning of Jesus. You going to change the prophecy to say something else just like before? You guys said that Jesus was to return in 1914, but did not so you guys changed it to mean that people born in 1914 would see the second coming. I hope you all have some people close to the age of 100 in your congregations.
Now show me S-P-E-C-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y where it states the Jesus is the Angel Michael? I have shown you where people are calling someone sitting on the throne God, and it turns out it is Jesus. I have shown you where people on earth are calling Jesus Lord, and he does not correct them. You have called God Lord on several occassions.
Show me where is states S-P-E-C-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y that it is by works we are saved. Oh it doesn’t. It says it is by faith you are saved.
2 Peter 1:1-2
1Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
Titus 2:11-14
11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hopeâ??the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Look at these two verses. God and Savior Jesus Christ.
I’ll venture to say that the Bible is simply well, “hear say”. A book created by man for man. A means to control and strike fear into the masses of the time.
Who determines who has the heavenly hope?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Who determines who has the heavenly hope?[/quote]
Notice what Jesus said when two of his apostles mother asked Jesus for positions of prominence in his heavenly Kingdom. Matthew 20:20-23 states:
"Then the mother of the sons of Zeb�´e�·dee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. 21 He said to her: What do you want? She said to him: Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom. 22 Jesus said in answer: YOU men do not know what YOU are asking for. Can YOU drink the cup that I am about to drink They said to him: We can. 23 He said to them: YOU will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.
So according to those verses Jesus does not have the authority to select who is going to sit at his right and left hand in his Kingdom: only God does.
Those verses again SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God and Jesus’ relationship.
The April issue of the Watchtower give a excellent illustration as to whether Jesus is God.
Page 15 states:
"Religion actually degrades Jesus when it teaches that he was God in the flesh. How so? Consider an illustration. Some workers make a request of their supervisor, but he says that he does not have the authority to grant it. If his statement is true, the supervisor has wisely displayed an awareness of his limitations. If it is not true–if he CAN grant the request but simply chooses not to–he has been deceptive.
Now how did Jesus respond when two of his apostles desired positions of prominence? He told them: “This siting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my father.”
If Jesus were really God, would that not have been a lie? Instead, by deferring to the One with greater authority, Jesus set a beautiful example in modesty–and he showed that he was not equal to God."
I could not have said it better. We all know that Jesus would not have been deceptive and if he had the authority to pick who will sit with him in his heavenly Kingdom he would not have said that it was his Fathers job to choose.
Dmaddox, as far as 1914 and how Jesus is Michael I can show you from the Bible how 1914 shows how Jesus became King in heaven in 1914 and how Michael is Jesus in his heavenly position but I know you won’t believe these scriptures and you will deny them.
Oh yeah, as to whether Faith ALONE is enough the Bible states at James 2:26 that faith without works is dead. At Matthew 7:21-23 it states:
“Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”
Those people who say Lord, Lord obviously have faith and they think they’re doing good in his name but he is going to reject them.
One more scripture that shows faith alone is not enough. Hebrew 10:26 states:
“For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”
So this verse shows that you can have faith but if you willfully practice sin Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers your sins.
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.
Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9. If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Dmaddox, as far as 1914 and how Jesus is Michael I can show you from the Bible how 1914 shows how Jesus became King in heaven in 1914 and how Michael is Jesus in his heavenly position but I know you won’t believe these scriptures and you will deny them.
[/quote]
First, thank you for not answering my question. Second, the original prophecy did not state that Jesus would become King in Heaven. The original phrophecy was that Jesus would return and reign on Earth. As we all know that did not happen. So when the next guy took over he changed the prophecy to say that Jesus became King in heaven.
By the way, we true Christians have shown more specific scriptures to prove Jesus is God than the JWs have to prove that Jesus is Michael. The best one you have is that Jesus has the voice of the archangel. That does not even say he is Michael. The other Angel’s name that we know of is Gabriel. So what makes him Michael and not Gabriel.
You are correct that I will not beleive in your knowledge, because my Faith is Grounded in the Rock, my God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
By the way just so you know I have the Heavenly Hope. God told me that through Jesus I have a place in Heaven. I am a son of God and such I have an inheratence. All my Christian Brothers and Sisters have the Heavenly Hope. May God soften your Heart, and Open your eyes to the truth, as he did to Saul on the road to Damascus. I will pray for you and your religion.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
…Constantine sensed that the “Christian” religion-albeit apostate and deeply corrupted by then-could be effectively utilized as a revitalizing and uniting force to serve his grand scheme for imperial domination. Adopting the foundations of apostate Christianity to gain support in furthering his own political ends, he decided to unify the people under one “catholic,” or universal, religion. Pagan customs and celebrations were given “Christian” names. And “Christian” clergymen were given the status, salary, and influential clout of pagan priests…
[/quote]
Below are a certain Lutheran’s view of Who Constantine was and the decisions he made regarding Christianity:
The Real Constantine [Part 1]
The Real Constantine [Part 2]
His other talks regarding Bible manuscripts are also interesting.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.
Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9. If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.[/quote]
Again, none of the scriptures you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship. This is what I can’t understand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 SPECIFICALLY TALKS about God’s and Jesus relationship AND DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO, none of the scriptures you quoted above compare thier relationship. Why use scriptures such as all of the ones you quoted above to base your belief when none of them SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship by directly stating the difference between the two. When God inspired Paul to write to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” What do you think God wants readers to know? Do you think that God is lying or misleading people by stating that he is the head of Jesus or that Jesus will submit to him.
When God inspired the Bible writers to write ALL of the scriptures that you quoted above the purpose of the scripture weren’t to identify or discuss God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I quoted above.
Your reasoning is way off as regards to John 12:37-41. At Isaiah 6:10 it states:
"Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.â??
The reason the prophecy was fulfilled is because the Pharisee’s did not believe Jesus was the Messiah even though he peformed miracles right in front of their eyes. This was because God made their hearts unreceptive, ears unresponsive.
As far as Jesus forgiving sins, again this does not show Jesus is God. Of course Jesus can forgive sins–that was one of the main reasons Jesus came to earth. His sacrifice enables peoples who exercise faith in Jesus to have thier sins FORGIVEN. You said “also correctly pointed out by the Pharisee.” Are you serious. The Pharisee’s WRONGLY thought that Jesus could not forgive sins. You’re thinking like the Pharisee’s who had their hearts and minds made unreceptive by God.
None of the scriptures you quoted about God reading peoples thoughts state that ONLY God can read peoples thoughts . Those verses just state that God can read thoughts and has read the thoughts of men. When Jesus was baptized God’s Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down upon Jesus and gave him power. Being able to discern one’s thoughts was one of the abilities.
Again, I’m going to keep on this point, none of those scriptures SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS JESUS AND GOD’S RELATIONSHIP AND DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO. Why ignore something clear and direct and go with some that is not clear and direct.
The scriptures you quoted above are some of the weakest I’ve seen to show that Jesus is God.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]mse2us wrote:
Dmaddox, Pat or anyone else reading these post, show me scriptures that S-P-E-C-I-F-I-C-A-L-L-Y
address God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I used above and the dozens of other scriptures I can use. Don’t use John 1:1 and don’t say “well in one part of the Bible God said this and in another part of the Bible Jesus said something similar so they must be the same.”[/quote]
I thought you would say that. Cant use John 1:1. You guys changed the translation so that your interpretation will be correct.[/quote]
mse2us, can you please address this for us? Why should John 1:1 not be used?
In The New World Translation John 1:1 says: In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
It’s interesting that this appears to state that there was more than one god in the beginning. Emphasized by the fact that “God” is capitalized, while the “god” that was the Word, is not capitalized. Suggesting a “lesser” god.
Do you believe then that there was more than one god in the beginning? This translation seems to suggest a sort of polytheism.
Please explain this.
[quote]mse2us wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
Isaiah 6 is about Isaiah seeing and speaking of God’s glory from his throne and then in John 12:37-41 (But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:? Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?? Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:? He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,Lest they should see with their eyes,Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,So that I should heal them.? These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.). Why is it that prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled when they the pharisees did not believe in Jesus; that is because as pointed out in John 12:41 is equating what Isaiah said about God in Isaiah 6 to Jesus, Therefore Jesus is God.
Also as correctly pointed out by the pharisees only God has the authority to forgive sins by his own initiative, Jesus proved his authority to forgive sin on his own initiative by healing the man in Matthew 9. If that is not enough in the same Matthew 9:4 it says that Jesus knew their evil thoughts as in Psalms 94:11 it says that only God knows the thoughts of man in Psalm 94:11,139:2, 1 Corinthians3:20 and in Isaiah 66:18.[/quote]
Again, none of the scriptures you quoted SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship. This is what I can’t understand, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 SPECIFICALLY TALKS about God’s and Jesus relationship AND DISTINGUISHES BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO, none of the scriptures you quoted above compare thier relationship. Why use scriptures such as all of the ones you quoted above to base your belief when none of them SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS God’s and Jesus relationship by directly stating the difference between the two. When God inspired Paul to write to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 11:3 which states:
“But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.” What do you think God wants readers to know? Do you think that God is lying or misleading people by stating that he is the head of Jesus or that Jesus will submit to him.
When God inspired the Bible writers to write ALL of the scriptures that you quoted above the purpose of the scripture weren’t to identify or discuss God and Jesus’ relationship like the one I quoted above.
Your reasoning is way off as regards to John 12:37-41. At Isaiah 6:10 it states:
"Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.â??
The reason the prophecy was fulfilled is because the Pharisee’s did not believe Jesus was the Messiah even though he peformed miracles right in front of their eyes. This was because God made their hearts unreceptive, ears unresponsive.
As far as Jesus forgiving sins, again this does not show Jesus is God. Of course Jesus can forgive sins–that was one of the main reasons Jesus came to earth. His sacrifice enables peoples who exercise faith in Jesus to have thier sins FORGIVEN. You said “also correctly pointed out by the Pharisee.” Are you serious. The Pharisee’s WRONGLY thought that Jesus could not forgive sins. You’re thinking like the Pharisee’s who had their hearts and minds made unreceptive by God.
None of the scriptures you quoted about God reading peoples thoughts state that ONLY God can read peoples thoughts . Those verses just state that God can read thoughts and has read the thoughts of men. When Jesus was baptized God’s Holy Spirit in the form of a dove came down upon Jesus and gave him power. Being able to discern one’s thoughts was one of the abilities.
Again, I’m going to keep on this point, none of those scriptures SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS JESUS AND GOD’S RELATIONSHIP AND DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHILE DOING SO. Why ignore something clear and direct and go with some that is not clear and direct.
The scriptures you quoted above are some of the weakest I’ve seen to show that Jesus is God.[/quote]
We are finally getting somewhere, and maybe I am just picking up on this so sorry if I am a little slow.
In having a relationship there would have to be two people. Jesus and God are one in the same so there is no relationship. “I am in him and he is in me.” They are the same being, creature, person how ever you want to distinguish it. How can God be both in heaven and on earth at the same time? He is Omniprescent. He can be everywhere at the same time. Until you get this you will always think that God and Jesus are two separate dieties. They are one.
We Christians understand this that is why we point out the scriptures that we do. The scriptures to us are very clear and are specific. Jesus has humbled himself to be sin. God can not be near sin, so Jesus is all human and all God. He has to be to be a perfect sacrific. No other blood can completely wash away sin, only the blood of God can do that. An angel is a created being, so can not be perfect as seen in what demons have become. God is the only perfect being.