Has anyone tried this style or even heard of it?
Yeah man. Billy Robinson teaches down in Little Rock, got to meet him a couple times. Pretty cool stuff.
First - GOOD TO SEE YOU WOL! you fucking stranger… haven’t come across your ugly mug in some time, glad you’re back.
Second - I’m familiar with catch wrestling in that I know the history of it somewhat… it’s a descendant of the OTHER fighting style of my people, which is Collar-and-Elbow wresting, which was brought here by the Irish. It was, I recall, Lincoln’s style of wrestling as well.
I don’t know anybody who teaches it though. Probably be hard-pressed to find one, being as most of the techniques have probably been refined and twisted into freestyle or Olympic wrestling - kind of like how bareknuckle boxing’s techniques aren’t really taught ‘exclusively’ unless you know the right folks.
Here is a good article on it that I came across a while ago. I’ve never personally tried it but I’ve done some training with Catch style neck cranks and they are brutal. I think Erik Paulson incorporates a lot of catch wrestling into is CSW system as well.
http://damagecontrolmma.com/2010/12/keeping-catch-wrestling-alive/
There are also a variety of Catch technique videos scattered throughout their site.
Thanks, Irish. Glad to see you still kicking around.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Im pretty sure Gene Lebell used to teach some. Also Josh Barnett is a big catch man, not that it helped much last month.
I would love to train Catch Wrestling, it’s an excellent example that belts are mostly for holding your pants.
I used to train with Tony Cecchine in Chicago back in 00-01. Learned some really good stuff, but turns out his supposed background is questionable (if not completely made up).
Definitely a rough style of wrestling. Not a lot of attention paid to the bottom (or guard), since you should be trying to escape or reverse instead of play from down there. In old school catch matches you could win by either pin or submission, so it makes sense. Neck cranks were brutal, also learned some good variations off the kimura and americana - catch calls them something else, I forget those names.
Decent amount paid to grinding stuff - digging in elbows and other hard points to keep your opponent uncomfortable and off balance.
Great art, if you can find someone legit who teaches it. Japanese pro wrestlers still use a lot of the old school holds and moves.
[quote]boatguy wrote:
I used to train with Tony Cecchine in Chicago back in 00-01. Learned some really good stuff, but turns out his supposed background is questionable (if not completely made up).
Definitely a rough style of wrestling. Not a lot of attention paid to the bottom (or guard), since you should be trying to escape or reverse instead of play from down there. In old school catch matches you could win by either pin or submission, so it makes sense. Neck cranks were brutal, also learned some good variations off the kimura and americana - catch calls them something else, I forget those names.
Decent amount paid to grinding stuff - digging in elbows and other hard points to keep your opponent uncomfortable and off balance.
Great art, if you can find someone legit who teaches it. Japanese pro wrestlers still use a lot of the old school holds and moves.[/quote]
My issue with the way that Cecchine teaches the “Top Wrist Lock” (Americana) and “Double Wrist Lock” (Kimura) is that although the theory behind doing those moves the way he does makes sense in an abstract context, the ability to actually apply those moves in real time against a fully resisting opponent (especially in a self defense situation where one is under adrenal stress) would be very difficult to develop if not downright impossible unless you were an absolute beast.
I do like some of his leg lock stuff though.
Based on what I have learned about Catch in the last year or so, I truly do wish it was still around in its original form. I’ve read here and there that a few “legitimate” instructors exist, but they are hard to come by. There is also a great deal of drama in the Catch Wrestling community regarding legitimacy. Here’s a summary of what I’ve learned about the current state of Catch:
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Billy Robinson is about the most recognized authority on the subject you can find. NOBODY questions Billy’s legitimacy. He is the current surviving grandfather of Catch. I pray he continues to be with us for a good while longer.
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Gene LeBell used to teach it, but apparently doesn’t anymore. His right hand man, Gokor something-or-other, apparently still MAY teach it.
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Erik Paulson’s Combat Submission Wrestling has some roots in Catch, as well as other styles. I know Erik is very well regarded in the grappling community. Nobody questions his lineage, and he has trained under a vast majority of the greats in a lot of styles. I personally study CSW now, and I really like it. This isn’t intended as a commercial for him, just a commentary.
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There is a huge controversy surrounding Tony Cecchine as a coach. I know Erik Paulson feels that Cecchine’s skills are legit. However, Cecchine has burned a lot of bridges, and has become somewhat of an island. This seems to have more to do with his business practices than his skills. I personally own his “Lost Art of Hooking” DVD set, and I think his instruction on video is top notch.
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The other side of the controversy is a guy named Jake Shannon, who runs Scientific Wrestling. Billy Robinson is currently aligned with Jake, and both have taken numerous shots at Cecchine to de-value him as an instructor.
This has left the Catch world, and those interested in learning, in a really tough spot. The best advice I can give you is to take a very “shotgun” style to learning it, and gather as much material as you can from all of the sources available. That said, you still have to find a place to train. There is an organization known as Snake Pit Grappling that is trying to keep Catch alive and trying to spread out across the country. You may want to look into them as well.
Also, as you look into Catch, you are going to hear a lot of people who will tell you to just go train BJJ. I’m not a huge fan of that answer. I think BJJ is fine, but it’s not the “be all, end all”. I don’t think Catch is either, but wrestling suits me better. It’s a matter of preference, in my opinion…not an issue of which art is better.
I think the advice to “just go train BJJ” does get thrown around maybe a little too liberally, but like you said, Catch can be difficult to find, while BJJ on the other hand is wildly popular and fairly easily found in most areas.
I am totally on board about it not being the be all end all though. Cross training in Judo; Scholastic (Folkstyle), Freestyle, or Greco Roman Wrestling; Sambo; CACC (Catch); and even Japanese Jujutsu, Chin Na, Hapkido, or Small Circle JJ (which all contain great small joint manipulations which are not found in sport oriented systems anymore) will all help to fully develop and round out one’s grappling skills.
Yes, sir. I completely agree regarding the cross training. I very much wish I had wrestled in high school, and cross trained in judo. I think that would have been a great combo. That was before the UFC brought BJJ to the forefront of everyone’s brain, of course.
Even now, I cross train. I’m currently doing Paulson’s CSW a couple nights a week, and I have a former high school wrestling coach training me and some of my guys in his methods on another night. I guess you’d call it a blend of Folkstyle, Freestyle and Greco-Roman, like any high schooler or college athlete does. It’s a little rougher to learn that at my age (I’m 45), but I’m learning nevertheless.
I don’t think any one style really has all the answers. When I was younger, I always tried to seek out that “ultimate martial art”. Now, I train for different reasons, and seek out training accordingly.
On a final note, you wanna talk about a style that’s hard to find? Try to find a legitimate Hwarang-do instructor…good Lord. I was stationed in Korea for a little over a year, and I STILL couldn’t find one. Geez…
Tony’s leg locks were amazing. Regardless of what his background really is, he was very skilled when I trained with him. He apparently had some sort of back issue, but he would get on the mat a little and demonstrate moves. If his background is completely made up, then he has an amazing ability to mimic other people’s stuff and learn it very quickly.
I messaged back and forth with Jake Shannon several years ago, when Scientific first started popping up. Tony was the most well-known name in the game at the time, and Jake made his niche by attacking Tony’s legitimacy. I told Jake, and I still believe this, I am wary of anyone who attacks one man’s credibility, and then claims to be better than said man, while charging for his services, which reminds me:
NOTE I trained with Tony for the better part of a year, until I could no longer afford to commute from North Chicago to the South Side 3-4 times per week. During that time, he charged me exactly ZERO for his instruction. I demo’d some pushups in his conditioning video, but he never asked for a red cent in exchange for training with him and his crew.
From Boatguy: " I told Jake, and I still believe this, I am wary of anyone who attacks one man’s credibility, and then claims to be better than said man, while charging for his services."
Very, Very , well said…words to live by.
I am in total agreement with Boatguy. I personally believe Tony is very legitimate. The man has very evident skills on video, and his attention to the details is really quite impressive. There is no way he is just mimicking others.
I brought up the controversy between Tony and Jake only to make readers aware of the current situation with CACC, as it got very confusing for me, at first. I think it is SO unfortunate that the divide exists between the two camps. I think Tony takes an undeserved beating from Jake in the business world. Sad to see, because I’m sure Tony has plenty to offer.
Even recently, Jake continues to take veiled shots at Tony, and declaring Scientific Wrestling as the only “certified” source for CACC. I’m actually glad to hear from someone who has actually trained with Tony. It reinforces my good opinion of him.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I brought up the controversy between Tony and Jake only to make readers aware of the current situation with CACC, as it got very confusing for me, at first. I think it is SO unfortunate that the divide exists between the two camps.
[/quote]
Nothing in your post read as accusatory to me. I felt it was pretty even handed and since both camps have good material (LAOH is a classic and I am sure Erik Paulson’s material with Scientific is good) someone could get lost in the animosity instead of looking at the products.
As for the divide: I think it legitimizes Catch Wrestling. You are not a style until there is a sufficient amount of bickering, purse swinging, and animosity between different schools/teachers.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]boatguy wrote:
Tony’s leg locks were amazing. Regardless of what his background really is, he was very skilled when I trained with him. He apparently had some sort of back issue, but he would get on the mat a little and demonstrate moves. If his background is completely made up, then he has an amazing ability to mimic other people’s stuff and learn it very quickly.
I messaged back and forth with Jake Shannon several years ago, when Scientific first started popping up. Tony was the most well-known name in the game at the time, and Jake made his niche by attacking Tony’s legitimacy. I told Jake, and I still believe this, I am wary of anyone who attacks one man’s credibility, and then claims to be better than said man, while charging for his services, which reminds me:
NOTE I trained with Tony for the better part of a year, until I could no longer afford to commute from North Chicago to the South Side 3-4 times per week. During that time, he charged me exactly ZERO for his instruction. I demo’d some pushups in his conditioning video, but he never asked for a red cent in exchange for training with him and his crew.[/quote]
Yeah, it’s obvious the guy has some legit skill from watching his vids. I also am of the belief that while lineage is important, it’s not the end all be all. Skill (both in doing and teaching) means as much IMO, if not more when it comes to legitimacy.
As a MA school owner I am not of the opinion that the price that an instructor charges to train has much if any (perhaps with some completely off the charts exceptions) relevance to the quality of the product/services that they offer. I know of schools who charge almost nothing and offer awesome material/training, ones that charge little but who’s product is crap, ones that charge a lot and have great training and ones that charge a lot and have awful material. The two variables really have no intrinsic relationship contrary to popular perception.
Much to my chagrin, considering I just wished the man many more years a few posts ago…I regret to inform those who are interested that Billy Robinson actually passed away today, March 3rd. I regret that I never had the opportunity to train with the man. CACC has lost a true living legend.
God speed, sir, and “Pivot, damn you!! Pivot!!”
Oh no! RIP Mr. Robinson. Thank you for your contribution to the Martial Arts/Combat sports world.