Carter Meets with Hamas, Again

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.

Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.

A ridiculous notion, their country is under attack and you want them to engage in civil war.

http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm

Then the Palestinians will continue to see their youth filled to the brim with holy jihad and anti-Jew hatred. Which means this will go on forever. Nothing to see here, move along.

“Nothing to see here”? Seriously? Don’t you think WTP might be rightly concerned. Because maybe he heard accounts of Sabra and Shatila, the regular IDF incursions into Lebanon or witnessed the destruction and horror the Israeli attack on the country caused.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the main reason Lebanon has been such a mess is the Zionist state.[/quote]

Yeah, Hezbolah, Syria, and internal strife has nothing to do with, I guess it’s easier to just blame the Jews.

[quote]will to power wrote:

It is the Israelis who are not negotiating. It’s also irrelevant that the Palestinians are losing here, they have offered to stop resisting and to call a truce in exchange for Israeli withdrawal from their territory. If Israel truly does want peace, then why would they just ignore that? Unless they want to use the fact that they’re in the superior position to destroy the Palestinian state altogether. [/quote]

As far as I know the Arab Peace Treaty is still on the table. Olmert likes the plan as far as I know, but has reservations about giving up their capitol. So from what I can tell the negotiations are on going.

Also, when the Israelis have withdrawn before. Hamas made sure to fuck that up as royally as possible.

“Hopes for peace among many people were dashed when Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government and when Operation Summer Rains started less than a year after disengagement.”

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
will to power wrote:

will to power wrote:
So kind of them to reduce their invasion of our countries.

Sloth wrote:
“Our” countries?

I am Lebanese.

Are you invading Australia?[/quote]

LOL

I keep putting it off, seems like a lot of work.

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
will to power wrote:

I am Lebanese.

I knew you had an agenda, as you previous posts were more an emotional rant devoid of facts. Do you agree that Israel should be wiped off the map? Further, do you too think of Jews as “apes and pigs”?

Obviously, we can’t verify, but it would be nice if you answered honestly.

Moron![/quote]

Man, I love when people assume I’m a racist based on my race.

[quote]pat wrote:

And why do you think that is? Starting with Arafat and probably before, the palistinians have been suicide bombing, launching rockets and visiting various acts of terror on the Israeli people. Do you think, that maybe for a moment, if they did not behave that way there wouldn’t be so much misery in the territories?
[/quote]

And the Israelis have done nothing to instigate it? You act like the Palestinians just woke up one morning, and out of the blue, decided it was time to start hating Jews.

The Palestinians have been under the thumb of the Israelis for years. Quit acting like it’s the opposite.

Would you like to see it in video or in an article? I’ve posted youtube video, twice actually, on this forum, of Israeli snipers taking pot-shots at Palestinian woman and children as well as similar video.

I’m sure I could find more footage of Israeli atrocities. But hey, your search options work just as well as mine. Do I need to be the curious one, or would you rather the MSM here in America make your decisions for you?

I’ve said this numerous times, the American media is notorious for its inaccurate reporting of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Until some of you look at different sources, you’ll always be dilluded with the notion that the Palestinians are terrorizing the defenseless Israelis. This is not accurate and it has never been the case.

Dustin

[quote]pat wrote:
will to power wrote:

I knew you had an agenda, as you previous posts were more an emotional rant devoid of facts. Do you agree that Israel should be wiped off the map? Further, do you too think of Jews as “apes and pigs”?
[/quote]

Translation: I’m too lazy to actually debate facts so I’m just going to pull the, “your a Nazi/racist”. It’s easier than to deal with facts.

Seriously, Pat appears to be decent guy, he just loses his mind sometimes.

Dustin

[quote]will to power wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
will to power wrote:

will to power wrote:
So kind of them to reduce their invasion of our countries.

Sloth wrote:
“Our” countries?

I am Lebanese.

Are you invading Australia?

LOL

I keep putting it off, seems like a lot of work.[/quote]

Watch out for the roos.

[quote]Maccabee wrote:
Wow, lots of room for commentary here… where to start…

Lebanon in trouble because of the “Zionist state?” Interesting-- I was under the impression that Lebanon was doing pretty well until certain events came to pass… Remember when the PLO and Arafat were kicked out of Jordan and moved their terror organization into Lebanon…? [/quote]

Yes. And even if we disregard the social catastrophe that the waves of Palestinian refugees caused to the Lebanese people, we’re still left with the clusterf*ck that the PLO and other groups cost the country. And let’s not forget Hezbollah and the damage the organization has done to a culturally diverse place.

And in case you haven’t noticed, all of those things were directly caused by the Zionist state.

[quote]Dustin wrote:
pat wrote:

And why do you think that is? Starting with Arafat and probably before, the palistinians have been suicide bombing, launching rockets and visiting various acts of terror on the Israeli people. Do you think, that maybe for a moment, if they did not behave that way there wouldn’t be so much misery in the territories?

And the Israelis have done nothing to instigate it? You act like the Palestinians just woke up one morning, and out of the blue, decided it was time to start hating Jews.

The Palestinians have been under the thumb of the Israelis for years. Quit acting like it’s the opposite.

Please reference a single time where the Israeli military, or Israelis in general, willfully, knowingly and deliberately targeted palistinian civilians?
Yes, Israel has hurt civilians, but those civilians weren’t the target.

Would you like to see it in video or in an article? I’ve posted youtube video, twice actually, on this forum, of Israeli snipers taking pot-shots at Palestinian woman and children as well as similar video.

I’m sure I could find more footage of Israeli atrocities. But hey, your search options work just as well as mine. Do I need to be the curious one, or would you rather the MSM here in America make your decisions for you?

I’ve said this numerous times, the American media is notorious for its inaccurate reporting of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Until some of you look at different sources, you’ll always be dilluded with the notion that the Palestinians are terrorizing the defenseless Israelis. This is not accurate and it has never been the case.

Dustin

[/quote]

I would prefer an article. Something referencable. I am not trusting youtube.com for factual information. If I did, I would have thought Gohan is the lead singer for Linkin Park.

The fact that the palistinian terrorists have targeted Israeli citizens is well established, understood and documented. To say otherwise is simply not being honest. Even Aljazeera admits it from time to time.

[quote]Dustin wrote:
pat wrote:
will to power wrote:

I knew you had an agenda, as you previous posts were more an emotional rant devoid of facts. Do you agree that Israel should be wiped off the map? Further, do you too think of Jews as “apes and pigs”?

Translation: I’m too lazy to actually debate facts so I’m just going to pull the, “your a Nazi/racist”. It’s easier than to deal with facts.

Seriously, Pat appears to be decent guy, he just loses his mind sometimes.

Dustin[/quote]

A) There were no facts to speak of in his rant.
B) I love it when I ask simple questions the answers get dodged. Is it that hard? Do you believe Isreal should be wiped off the map or not? Do you think Jews are “apes and pigs” as is taught in the territories.

That is all, funny how nobody will answer them directly, so I guess we know the answers.

[quote]Maccabee wrote:
Wow, lots of room for commentary here… where to start…

Lebanon in trouble because of the “Zionist state?” Interesting-- I was under the impression that Lebanon was doing pretty well until certain events came to pass… Remember when the PLO and Arafat were kicked out of Jordan and moved their terror organization into Lebanon…? (Well, many or most of you were probably either not yet born or mere infants…) Of course, then Christian Arabs began to suffer just as much as Israelis from internal violence and terrorism.

Palestinians living in squalor because of Israeli initiatives? That is perplexing-- What about Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, etc vying for territory and using them as pawns? Anybody bother to read about that? How about “leaders” of those countries manipulating the Palestinians and ignoring them while they move into camps while their “compatriots” wage war against Israelis? Why did they not help to construct housing and infrastructure with the money they received from the UN?

What about their poorly elected leaders embezzling funds from the United Nation and other states within the European Union? Why does Arafat’s wife not release all of the funds from her Swiss bank accounts? I’m certain those millions and millions of dollars would help the Palestinians in Gaza buy at least a little bit of fuel and food.

Have any of you ever actually lived in or visited the region? Ever seen a Palestinian refugee camp? Have you seen the compounds of their “leaders” and the slovenly, run down shacks that surround them? Is it really any wonder that it is so easy to fuel hatred for Israel when you forego basic services for your brothers and purchase arms instead?

Education-- Educated Professionals? Where are they? Oh, I forgot-- they left decades ago because they anticipated all of these problems and did not want to stick around for the fashla that was to ensue-- What motivation would a physician, an attorney, contractor, or a banker have to stick around in Palestinian neighborhoods when there is not going to be a market for their services? Correction: a physician is going to have a huge market for his/her services. A banker, maybe not so much. It is a pity too, because their intelligence, education, and success would have much better served the Palestinian’s than the thugs they “elected.”

Dustin, I’m not sure what you learn about in your company or at home in Oklahoma, but the officers in the higher echelons of our military disagree with you. I steadfastly disagree with your notion that the media skews public opinion so grossly in favor of Israel. And since you hunger for solid facts/examples, here is a link to one:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/reports/The_Photo_that_Started_it_All.asp

Read the article. Is it not intriguing that major American media corporations showed a “Palestinian” young man bloodied with an Israeli soldier holding the club in the background? If and when you read the article you will discover that the bloodied youth is a Jewish American student in Israel, and the soldier was not screaming at him�??he was screaming at the Palestinians who were trying to finish him off. If you want to read Tuvia Grossman�??s story about the attack, look at this link:

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/israeldiary/Victim_of_the_Media_War.asp

It is also interesting that the Palestinians also continue to use Tuvia�??s photo, a photograph of a bloodied Jewish boy, in their propaganda. Strange, no?

Before you say, �??Well, the Israeli military still accidentally kills innocent civilians,�?? let me offer up this question: Where are the internal watchdog groups for the Palestinians, for Hamas? Where are the groups that monitor the internal affairs? Because Israel has these organizations�??they watch out for and disclaim these incidents if and when they happen. However, I never see reports from Arab organizations about the misdeeds of the Hamas thugs in Gaza that fire rockets into Sderot, or lash suicide bombs to young men and women. Sure, you hear about if from other media outlets, but that is not the same.

Now let me cycle back to a previous statement�??Lebanon still suffers, but not because of Israel. Lebanon suffers because the country cannot effectively expel terrorist organization and cells that have plagued the country and its citizens. Lebanon suffers because terrorists hide out in her cities and organize unlawful activities against foreign governments within her borders. Lebanon suffers because internal violence within the government allows neither proper function nor security.

Anyone ever read Hobbes? Finish the Leviathan and then maybe we can inject some intellectual discussion into this crumbling thread. I think some lessons in political philosophy would do many of you a world of good in structuring your arguments.
[/quote]

Excellent post! Excellent links too!

[quote]lixy wrote:
Maccabee wrote:
Wow, lots of room for commentary here… where to start…

Lebanon in trouble because of the “Zionist state?” Interesting-- I was under the impression that Lebanon was doing pretty well until certain events came to pass… Remember when the PLO and Arafat were kicked out of Jordan and moved their terror organization into Lebanon…?

Yes. And even if we disregard the social catastrophe that the waves of Palestinian refugees caused to the Lebanese people, we’re still left with the clusterf*ck that the PLO and other groups cost the country. And let’s not forget Hezbollah and the damage the organization has done to a culturally diverse place.

And in case you haven’t noticed, all of those things were directly caused by the Zionist state.[/quote]

Sounds like the Arafat’s could help if they wanted too:
[i]"Estimates of the degree of Arafat’s wealth differ, but are all staggering. Last year, Forbes magazine listed Arafat in its annual list of the wealthiest ‘Kings, Queens and Despots,’ with a fortune of ‘at least $300 million.’ Israeli and US officials estimate Arafat’s personal holdings between $1-3 billion. Rachel Ehrenfeld, Director of the American Center for Democracy, arrives at a figure of $1.3 billion and laments:

This money is enough to a) feed 3 million Palestinians for 1 year, b) buy 1,000 mobile intensive care units, c) fund 10 hospitals for a decade, and d) would still leave $585 million to fund other social projects.

And while the average Palestinian barely subsists, Arafat’s wife Suha (at left) in Paris receives $100,000 a month from PA sources, as reported on CBS’ 60 Minutes. That CBS report also noted that Arafat maintains secret investments in a Ramallah-based Coca Cola plant, a Tunisian cellphone company, and venture capital funds in the U.S. and the Cayman Islands. "[/i]
From the article in Macabee’s post above.

You’d think she’d lend a hand, but instead she ran away with the money intended for the palistinians and is living the good life…She must be a Jew at heart, huh?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Maccabee wrote:
Wow, lots of room for commentary here… where to start…

Lebanon in trouble because of the “Zionist state?” Interesting-- I was under the impression that Lebanon was doing pretty well until certain events came to pass… Remember when the PLO and Arafat were kicked out of Jordan and moved their terror organization into Lebanon…?

Yes. And even if we disregard the social catastrophe that the waves of Palestinian refugees caused to the Lebanese people, we’re still left with the clusterf*ck that the PLO and other groups cost the country. And let’s not forget Hezbollah and the damage the organization has done to a culturally diverse place.

And in case you haven’t noticed, all of those things were directly caused by the Zionist state.[/quote]

Why do you always blame others for the actions of terrorists?

[quote]Maccabee wrote:
Let us consider some historical examples of terrorism against other western states along with the existence of terrorist or other violent organizations…

Rewind 220 or so years, before the USA had a Constitution…

Western European nations have trading vessels that are victimized by violent pirates from North African countries and other Arab neighbors in the Mediterranean. These pirates attack and/or extort massive payments from Western governments. Did these pirates begin attacking European shippers because they were trading in the Med and were relatively easy targets, or because the nations existed? By your reasoning, these pirates did so because the Western European nations existed. Because their boats existed. [/quote]

I don’t know if you’re devoid of common sense or are just being deliberately obtuse. Really, I can’t see any other explanation here. You’re comparing pirates plundering boats to a nationalist liberation movement. And that’s something even a ten year old wouldn’t do.

baffled

[quote]Flash forward a few decades into the 19th century-- Christian evangelicals in the United States develop an ever-growing interest in the region that soons becomes dubbed the “Middle East.” What happens? Well, to cite one example, a university and an intrafrastructure to support education in LEBANON develops. Now, this is just an educational intrastructure/gruop of program, not a Jewish state. This is a University in Lebanon. Schools in Lebanon, where children can learn to read and better themselves. These schools were prey for Arabs that took violent measures against them.

Schools in Lebanon were bad? Violence? But I thought that violent Arab groups developed as a result of a Jewish state? [/quote]

So, because a bunch of twats vandalized an institution set by Americans in the Greater Syria, we are to conclude that the inhabitants of the region are inherently violent?

Again, I am truly baffled by your lack of logic.

I see. Israel had nothing to do with the Palestinians leaving their lands. The Palestinians were deliberately conned by the Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. The disclosed Israeli historical records showing that people from Lydda, Ramla and a multitude of other sites were driven out at gunpoint and which heaps of Israeli scholars have reviewed, were all fabricated by the Arab-sympathizing Mossad.

The land currently part of Israel was uninhabited, making Israel a land without people for a people without land.

All that reading history books and critical thinking was clouding my judgement. Thank you for opening my eyes to the Higher Truth.

[quote]Maccabee wrote:
Now, Lixy, I am willing to concede that many if not most of the fighters that currently involve themselves with these groups are unaware of the history that surrounds their culture and people in respect to their plight (i.e. the machinations of several Arab governments to seize or parcel out the land in Israel) – Therefore when they join these groups it is probably out of hatred for Israel. However, Israel did not give them money and say, “Here, guys, start some terrorist organizations.” Arab leaders directed money meant “for the people” for armaments instead of food/water, and many other neighboring countries supported their warmongering.

Surrounding Arab nations encouraged Palestinians and their leaders to abandon their homes. Fear (unwarranted I may add, for Israeli officials assured leaders in Palestinian towns that they would go unharmed if they abstained from the conflict) encouraged Palestinians to abandon their homes. Then the Arab governments refused them entry en masse and abandoned them in filthy, overcrowded refugee camps-- the ideal incubator for unrest, discontent, and hatred. Arafat and his thugs abandoned them in filthly, overcrowded refugee camps-- Arafat cultivated their hatred to retain his stranglehold on the Palestinians. This was directly caused by other Arabs, not the Israeli government.[/quote]

I never challenged the fact that some Arab countries (some of which were still under British colonization) are partly responsible for the plight of the Palestinians. Never.

However, what I have a problem with, is the idea that the Palestinian people would have ever left their homes if it wasn’t for the militant Zionist entity growing in their midst. Would these “Arab leaders” have “encouraged Palestinians to abandon their homes” if masses of freshly debarked Jews weren’t running around with weapons?

The causality is crystal clear in this situation.

[quote]Maccabee wrote:
The causality? I guess you ignored the part where I noted that representatives of the Israeli government assured leaders in Palestinian towns that they would go unharmed if they abstained from the conflict and suggested that they stay in their homes?

For now I will assume that you just skipped that part accidentally because you were so thrilled to read my post and could not wait to finish reading. [/quote]

No, I actually read it. And I have little doubt that it happened. Now, I don’t know where you want to get with that point but if it is to lay part of the blame on the ensuing catastrophe on Arab countries (once again, some of which were under occupation), then save your breath. I agree with that point. I also know (actually, the whole world knows since 1980), that Palestinians were also evicted at gunpoint in many areas.

What I will not concede, is the ludicrous idea that the Palestinians would have left their home if the Zionists weren’t there.

It’s very simple.

And your point is…?

[quote]pat wrote:
That is all, funny how nobody will answer them directly, so I guess we know the answers.
[/quote]

The answer is that I find your suggestion and your reasoning behind it offensive, and I doubt you would believe what I had to say anyway since you suggested in your post that I wouldn’t be honest about it.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
will to power wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
will to power wrote:

will to power wrote:
So kind of them to reduce their invasion of our countries.

Sloth wrote:
“Our” countries?

I am Lebanese.

Are you invading Australia?

LOL

I keep putting it off, seems like a lot of work.

Watch out for the roos.
[/quote]

It’s the koala’s you really have to watch out for. Sure they look cute and innocent, but one day you’re walking along and bam! one drops on your head and is eating your kidneys before you know what happened.

Girl killed in fresh Gaza clashes

[i]Israeli forces have clashed with Palestinian militants during a raid on northern Gaza, hours after rejecting a truce offered by Hamas.

Palestinian doctors say a 14-year-old girl died and eight other people were injured in the raid, in Beit Lahiya. [/i]

[quote]pat wrote:

I would prefer an article. Something referencable. I am not trusting youtube.com for factual information. If I did, I would have thought Gohan is the lead singer for Linkin Park.
[/quote]

As you wish.

I found these in about 2 minutes. All three are legit sources.

[quote]
The fact that the palistinian terrorists have targeted Israeli citizens is well established, understood and documented. To say otherwise is simply not being honest. Even Aljazeera admits it from time to time.[/quote]

I know they have done so, I’m not saying otherwise. I don’t think anyone is trying to say otherwise. That doesn’t justify what the Israelis are doing.

Dustin