[quote]Chushin wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
“Our” countries?
I am Lebanese.
Ah, ok. I assumed you were an Australian citizen.
Perhaps TOO picky, but why “countries,” as in plural?
Because you are an Arab, you have more than one country?
[/quote]
I was responding to a comment about Lebanon and Palestine, by our I meant Lebanese and Palestinians. I don’t lay claim to all Arab countries… yet.
[quote]Guerrero wrote:
I’m leaning towards Hamas if noone knows as far as what team I’m rooting for.
BUT, does anyone think about this.
Hamas might want this 10 year truce and will honor it, just because in 10 years they will probably be able to arm and equip themselves to a point where it’s not David vs Goliath anymore.
They would be able to reach some sort of real military capability, probably in addition to terror tactics to ensure their survival.
As of right now, Israel’s power could whipe out any and all organized Palestinian resistance on the ground.[/quote]
10 years is also long enough for the population to not want to go back to war, and long enough for 2 or 3 elections given that there is no state of emergency.
Economic prosperity and a history of real peace, may be the first step to a prolong peace in the region.
If the can last 10 years, people will probably tire of bloodshed.
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”
[quote]Sloth wrote:
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”[/quote]
Interesting way to phrase it, rather than ‘stop occupying our land and we’ll stop resisting your occupation’.
[quote]will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”
Interesting way to phrase it, rather than ‘stop occupying our land and we’ll stop resisting your occupation’. [/quote]
Well, we could bring up the occupied land being used repeatedly in the past for staging Arab/muslim aggression. As in “We’ll stop occupying your land, when you show us that you’re no longer hell bent on destroying us. As you’ve repeatedly said you would, and tried, since our Nation’s beginning.”
And when the best you can offer is a 10 year truce, instead of a permanent peace for 67’s borders, you aren’t exactly inspiring confidence that the above goals have changed.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”[/quote]
You paint this picture, yet the entire opposite is true. Hamas certainly has its own propaganda, but who is actually making it difficult for the other to survive?
It is the Palestinians that live in squalor. It’s the Israelis who have the prime (farm) land, access to water and other resources. It is innocent Palestinian civilians who are often targeted as terrorists and killed by the Israeli military. Palestinians can’t even attempt to conduct a normal life because they have to go to numerous checkpoints just to travel from one place to another. I won’t even bother to go into detail about how the world’s only Superpower is arming the Israelis to the teeth with weaponry.
This whole situation is a mess and both sides are guilty of horrible acts, but lets try to frame the discussion accurately and place it in the proper context.
Dustin
[quote]Sloth wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”
Interesting way to phrase it, rather than ‘stop occupying our land and we’ll stop resisting your occupation’.
Well, we could go back to the occupied land being used repeatedly in the past for staging Arab/muslim aggression. As in “We’ll stop occupying your land, when you show us that you’re no longer hell bent on destroying us. As you’ve repeatedly said you would, and tried, since our Nation’s beginning.”
And when the best you can offer is a 10 year truce, instead of a permanent peace for 67’s borders, you aren’t exactly inspiring confidence.[/quote]
It’s a bit ridiculous to say that they’ll stop invading after the Palestinians stop resisting, it has to be done simultaneously or why would they stop? And the propaganda stops after the war, not before. That’s the way it always works, but for some reason you want the rules different here.
As for a permanent peace, first, Israel could just come back with that as a condition.
Second, Hamas backs the Arab Peace Initiative, which offers total peace and trade with all Arab nations [that also includes releasing the Shelbaa Farms and Golan Heights, and is backed by all Arab nations]. Israel has not accepted that, or offered alternate terms however.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It won’t last 10 years. The “non hamas affiliated independent” martyrs will be active. And you don’t make an offer as the weaker power of “if you hand us a victory, maybe in 10 years we’ll actually recognize that you have a right to even exist on the face of Allah’s earth.”
You paint this picture, yet the entire opposite is true. Hamas certainly has its own propaganda, but who is actually making it difficult for the other to survive?
It is the Palestinians that live in squalor. It’s the Israelis who have the prime (farm) land, access to water and other resources. It is innocent Palestinian civilians who are often targeted as terrorists and killed by the Israeli military. Palestinians can’t even attempt to conduct a normal life because they have to go to numerous checkpoints just to travel from one place to another. I won’t even bother to go into detail about how the world’s only Superpower is arming the Israelis to the teeth with weaponry.
This whole situation is a mess and both sides are guilty of horrible acts, but lets try to frame the discussion accurately and place it in the proper context.
Dustin[/quote]
Of course they can’t conduct a normal life. And I don’t believe they ever will be able to. Unless they rise up and drag their clerics and leaders out into the street and deliver some street justice. If your leaders, your clergy, your TV, you textbooks and schools, are devoted to the holy destruction of another nation, and that nation happens to be mightier, you’re going to live like the loser.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Of course they can’t conduct a normal life. And I don’t believe they ever will be able to. Unless they rise up and drag their clerics and leaders out into the street and deliver some street justice. If your leaders, your clergy, your TV, you textbooks and schools, are devoted to the holy destruction of another nation, and that nation happens to be mightier, you’re going to live like the loser. [/quote]
And if that enemy ignores every offer of peace? It’s not like their land is being occupied or anything.
[quote]will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Of course they can’t conduct a normal life. And I don’t believe they ever will be able to. Unless they rise up and drag their clerics and leaders out into the street and deliver some street justice. If your leaders, your clergy, your TV, you textbooks and schools, are devoted to the holy destruction of another nation, and that nation happens to be mightier, you’re going to live like the loser.
And if that enemy ignores every offer of peace? It’s not like their land is being occupied or anything.
[/quote]
It’s not like the occupied land hasn’t been used repeatedly in acts of war against Israel. Even before the occupation, or anything. Gee, you might start thinking your neighbors would like to see you wiped out.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Of course they can’t conduct a normal life. And I don’t believe they ever will be able to. Unless they rise up and drag their clerics and leaders out into the street and deliver some street justice. If your leaders, your clergy, your TV, you textbooks and schools, are devoted to the holy destruction of another nation, and that nation happens to be mightier, you’re going to live like the loser.
And if that enemy ignores every offer of peace? It’s not like their land is being occupied or anything.
It’s not like the occupied land hasn’t been used repeatedly in acts of war against Israel. Even before the occupation, or anything.[/quote]
And again, what are you suggesting, that they wage war forever?
Edit; and what is with your complete inability to see both sides of the issue? It’s not as if Israel does not attack Palestine, breaking truces, and whatever you want to claim.
[quote]will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Of course they can’t conduct a normal life. And I don’t believe they ever will be able to. Unless they rise up and drag their clerics and leaders out into the street and deliver some street justice. If your leaders, your clergy, your TV, you textbooks and schools, are devoted to the holy destruction of another nation, and that nation happens to be mightier, you’re going to live like the loser.
And if that enemy ignores every offer of peace? It’s not like their land is being occupied or anything.
It’s not like the occupied land hasn’t been used repeatedly in acts of war against Israel. Even before the occupation, or anything.
And again, what are you suggesting, that they wage war forever?
Edit; and what is with your complete inability to see both sides of the issue? It’s not as if Israel does not attack Palestine, breaking truces, and whatever you want to claim.[/quote]
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.
Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.
The Palestinian mindset is a response to desperation, with room to breathe, their fear will lessen and the violence cease.
Anger is a by product of fear.
It would be safe to say, this whole situation has been caused by fear.
The Israelis were fearful of being a minority in their new nation, as they were in Germany.
Especially with such impolite and formerly subjugated people as the Arab Palestinians.
And the Palestinians feared loss of control of their quest for autonomy to a Zionist agenda. Loss of one of the most sacred cities of Islam to a group of what they percieved as European settlers.
The fear envisioning of a unified nation short and stunted, this fear resulted in a lack of communication and hostility boiled over very quickly.
Especially considering, that the Nazis and their entire agenda was more or less supported in alot of Arab states.
So the victim complex the Israelis have was never real seen as legimitate by the Arabs, even right after ww2.
Oh, and I do see both sides in the sense that I’d hope each could have a nation. And, each at peace with the other. But that doesn’t happen by teaching the Protocols of Zion as fact. Or dehumanzing Jews into pigs and apes. Or that the stone and tree will betray the Jew to the muslim as he fights and kills the muslim until the hour.
I don’t see peace happening when some of the same people that spread such evil are praised for offering nothing more than a 10 year truce for Israel’s commitment to 67’s borders.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.
Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.[/quote]
A ridiculous notion, their country is under attack and you want them to engage in civil war. So much more ridiculous when, as I’ve mentioned, Israel is being offered peace plans in exchange for ceasing their invasion.
The text of the Arab Peace Initiative in case anyone is interested
[quote]will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.
Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.
A ridiculous notion, their country is under attack and you want them to engage in civil war. So much more ridiculous when, as I’ve mentioned, Israel is being offered peace plans in exchange for ceasing their invasion.
The text of the Arab Peace Initiative in case anyone is interested
http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm[/quote]
Ah, the “Muslim demographic bomb, you’ll accept our terms for peace, or there won’t be peace” initiative. Right.
The spokesman for Hamas in the Palestinian parliament, Salah al-Bardawil, told Haaretz, “we will not agree to recognition of Israel or peace with it [as it appears in the initiative]. We have no problem with the part of the initiative that calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders and the right of refugees to return.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/843076.html
[quote]will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.
Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.
A ridiculous notion, their country is under attack and you want them to engage in civil war.
http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm[/quote]
Then the Palestinians will continue to see their youth filled to the brim with holy jihad and anti-Jew hatred. Which means this will go on forever. Nothing to see here, move along.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
will to power wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I suggest the Palestinian people turn the resistance inwards against those who’ve now indoctrinated generations of their youth with the concept of an everlasting holy war.
Edit: Well, not everlasting, I suppose. At least till the Hour of Ressurection.
A ridiculous notion, their country is under attack and you want them to engage in civil war. So much more ridiculous when, as I’ve mentioned, Israel is being offered peace plans in exchange for ceasing their invasion.
The text of the Arab Peace Initiative in case anyone is interested
http://www.jordanembassyus.org/arab_initiative.htm
Ah, the “Muslim demographic bomb, you’ll accept our terms for peace, or there won’t be peace” initiative. Right.[/quote]
Another ridiculous and one sided interpretation. It is an offer of peace, with terms. Terms mostly based on United Nations resolutions, no less. There has not even been a counter offer.
That I wasn’t aware of, and is pretty stupid. But as I mentioned, a 10 year truce is plenty of time for a change of government, one that may be looking to make peace.
And again, Israel makes no peace offers whatsoever, but for that you do not fault them, you only fault Hamas for offering limited peace terms.