I’m not a trainer.
That would be preferable yes… the way I do it(the way I was taught) was to cut carbs at your last 2-3 meals of the evening(unless PWO, have them no matter what) so that you are lower in glycogen for your morning cardio. You could do this during the day as well and go P+F meals for maybe 2 meals before a training session and then hit the cardio afterwards.
[quote]Well we all have been stating this for how many years now? LOL…its always weird that science seems to followup what bodybuilders already know and not vice versa.
Im always amazed by some guys on other sites who cant get out of this 24 hour weekday daily block of looking at calories in and calories used. I dont look at things in a daily individual 7 days a week block–I look at how to time things so they are most efficient.
–i.e…previous nite carbcuttoff/low glycogen morning=cardio…
–i.e…times when body is best at utilizing copious amounts of food=Post cardio+post workout.
Do you see the method to the madness? Cut carbs back the previous nite and get up and utilize the following in the most efficient manner
Perform Cardio Before Breakfast to Maximize Fat Burning
Written by Anssi H. Manninen, MHS
Tuesday, 07 November 2006
A recent, well-controlled study at the University of Ottawa examined the acute effects of exercise timing and meal glycemic index on fat burning in healthy young guys. After an overnight fast, subjects were asked to perform a moderate treadmill exercise either before consuming a 400 kcal low-glycemic or high-glycemic breakfast, or after consuming the low-glycemic or high-glycemic meal. Not suprisingly, the results revealed that the amount of fat burned during exercise was significantly greater when it was performed before breakfast compared to the same exercise performed after breakfast, as was the amount of fat burned during the entire trial. However, no significant effect of meal glycemic index on the amount of fat burned was noted, so the timing of exercise was clearly more important than the composition of the meals. The bottom line is that those who wish to maximize exercise-induced fat burning should perform pre-breakfast cardio soon after waking. A well-designed thermogenic/lipolytic formula (e.g., iSatori MX-LS7) may further increase the fat-burning effects of fasted-state cardio. Also, pre-cardio ingestion of branched-chain amino acids may be of some benefit by minimizing the burning of muscle-derived amino acids.
Reference: Bennard P, Doucet E. Acute effects of exercise timing and breakfast meal glycemic index on exercise-induced fat oxidation, Appl Physiol Nutr Metab, 2006;31:502-511.[/quote]
A post someone very smart left on another board about why he has people eat and do cardio the way he does.
i’m interested in the entire thread-please share!
is PWO nutrition for postcardio the same as postlifting (high lowgi carb + fast protein)?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Well we all have been stating this for how many years now? LOL…its always weird that science seems to followup what bodybuilders already know and not vice versa.
Im always amazed by some guys on other sites who cant get out of this 24 hour weekday daily block of looking at calories in and calories used. I dont look at things in a daily individual 7 days a week block–I look at how to time things so they are most efficient.
–i.e…previous nite carbcuttoff/low glycogen morning=cardio…
–i.e…times when body is best at utilizing copious amounts of food=Post cardio+post workout.
Do you see the method to the madness? Cut carbs back the previous nite and get up and utilize the following in the most efficient manner
Perform Cardio Before Breakfast to Maximize Fat Burning
Written by Anssi H. Manninen, MHS
Tuesday, 07 November 2006
A recent, well-controlled study at the University of Ottawa examined the acute effects of exercise timing and meal glycemic index on fat burning in healthy young guys. After an overnight fast, subjects were asked to perform a moderate treadmill exercise either before consuming a 400 kcal low-glycemic or high-glycemic breakfast, or after consuming the low-glycemic or high-glycemic meal. Not suprisingly, the results revealed that the amount of fat burned during exercise was significantly greater when it was performed before breakfast compared to the same exercise performed after breakfast, as was the amount of fat burned during the entire trial. However, no significant effect of meal glycemic index on the amount of fat burned was noted, so the timing of exercise was clearly more important than the composition of the meals. The bottom line is that those who wish to maximize exercise-induced fat burning should perform pre-breakfast cardio soon after waking. A well-designed thermogenic/lipolytic formula (e.g., iSatori MX-LS7) may further increase the fat-burning effects of fasted-state cardio. Also, pre-cardio ingestion of branched-chain amino acids may be of some benefit by minimizing the burning of muscle-derived amino acids.
Reference: Bennard P, Doucet E. Acute effects of exercise timing and breakfast meal glycemic index on exercise-induced fat oxidation, Appl Physiol Nutr Metab, 2006;31:502-511.
A post someone very smart left on another board about why he has people eat and do cardio the way he does. [/quote]
Thanks for that. Pretty much seals the issue up for me.
Question
How many of you have actually tried the various cardio methods, and how many of you just parrot what you’ve read?
I have tried HIIT and low intensity cardio and well… low intensity is what works for my goals.
[quote]kickureface wrote:
i’m interested in the entire thread-please share!
is PWO nutrition for postcardio the same as postlifting (high lowgi carb + fast protein)?[/quote]
Similar but not the same. If you are concerned about bodyfat gain the food item you’d most be concerned about(assuming you are eating adequately for growth overall… otherwise forget it) is probably carbs. Don’t be a no carb freak but more attention to how much and timing could be important for staying lean as you grow.
Say you want to take in 200 grams on off days and 350 on training days(just random numbers, I don’t count). Me personally I would want to take in the bulk of those in the 2-3 meals PWO and 1-2 meals post cardio when the body will be in a depleted state looking to soak glycogen up.
Maybe 5 egg whites, 2 whole eggs, oatmeal to your(1-2 cups?) hearts desire and some protein powder in the oats to fill out your protein needs… that’s what I’d consider a post cardio meal since it’s likely going to be breakfast. Next meal maybe have some steak and rice… then I’d likely take in mostly protein+healthy fat meals for the rest of the day. Steak+vegetables+almonds perhaps. You get the picture?
If you work out at 11AM and have a PWO shake+ 2 P+C meals afterwards and go low carb the next 2 meals your morning cardio the next day will have just that much less glycogen to burn off before you dip into fat stores. If you do cardio on a regular basis(2-4 times a week should be fine) and time your carbs like this in a smart fashion you’ll be much better off than just cramming it down and hoping you don’t get fat in the end.
You get to eat more overall and be SURE you are getting all the protein and calories your body needs and not curbing back the food in hopes of staying lean. I’d rather eat 350 grams protein and 4200 calories but do cardio 3 days a week than 250 grams and 2900 calories and think that cardio is going to eat away my muscles. Does anyone think the guy trying a “clean bulk” diet would be bigger than the first guy?
Scott,
Out of curiosity, isn’t there a percentage uptake of carbs as muscle glycogen vs stored in fat cells?
Meaning, just because the muscles have the capacity to store the carbs as glycogen, that shouldn’t be a gaurantee that 100% of your carb intake will go to the glycogen depleted muscles FIRST before ever being stored in the fat cells. Right?
So, say 80% will go toward muscle glycogen and 20% to fat cells (and say this is a function of magnitude of depletion plus insulin sensitivity or nutrient partitioning. This ratio would eventually tend toward fat storage the less depleted the muscle tissues are, correct?
Not that it really matters in the grand scheme, but I’d bet that’s how the body works as nothing is ever A) linear and B) differential equations are everywhere in nature…
I wouldn’t even know where to begin to try to research something like that, but honestly don’t care nor think any study is going to show my personal(or anyones) ability to store glycogen accurately.
If you are training very intensely(very hard leg and back work especially) and doing cardio that zaps a lot of your glycogen stores the body will quickly realize preferential treatment needs to go to the muscles and carbs should be used efficiently in my opinion.
Give the body repeated stress and say “THIS is how it’s going to be now get ready next time” and I think the body will respond favorably.
All I can say is if someone is storing fat from their carb intake when it’s already timed well they either need to bump up the cardio or decrease the carbs slightly from meals(or be honest about what they are eating lol).
At the lowest end of the totum pole endomorpic wise maybe carbs PWO only and P+F meals all other times… I don’t think many people need that in order to stay lean(unless they refuse cardio but still want to eat big like I prefer) but it’s a possibility.
I try not to make things too scientific, just trial and error and seeing what works for people around me.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
RSGZ wrote:
Since when is 16/17% bodyfat “overweight”?
I suppose when abercrombie started taking over the world…[/quote]
Or a writer on this very site(coughPoliquincough) who preaches that anything above 10% BF is “fat”.
Scott,
I also think the more scientific the approach, the less margin for the ‘art’ of training, which is wholly necessary given how different your body can respond even within the same week to the same stimulus/nutrition parameters. Science can never truly account for that.