Cardio Is Anabolic! : Part 1

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I am posting the following thread in order that we may have a healthy debate. We may not come up with a definitive answer, but hopefully with debate, we can all come to our own conclusions. Fair enough?


I think I’ll go CRAZY if I hear another “guru” or “expert” or “bodybuilder wanna’ be” say “drop the cardio, man, if ya’ wanna put on the meat, man!” or “save the glycogen for your workouts, man!”(THAT’S the worst!). CARDIO IS, ON BALANCE, ANABOLIC, is it not? Points:


1)We have a BMR (or Basal/Basic Metabolic Rate)that represents the energy consuming, basic operations of the machinery of the body. As stated, it is energy (calorie)consuming.


2)When we add MASS (lean) to our bodies, we increase the amount of that basic machinery, thereby INCREASING energy (caloric)consumption and BMR. Kewl so far?


3)Now…when we add AEROBICS/CARDIO, we ALSO increase energy (caloric) consumption and BMR because we “force” the machinery of the body to become more efficient at consuming oxygen, delivering oxygen to the tissues and eliminating CO2. But that’s not all. Over time, we “force” the body to become more sensitive to insulin, more efficient at protein synthesis and deposition, more efficient at nutrient uptake and at fat mobilization and utilization. “Negative?” We tend to increase Cortisol, a “catabolic” hormone (that’s another thread!), but there are ways to deal with that. So…let’s debate.

  1. Don’t Cardio’s ANABOLIC/LEAN MASS PROMOTING properties (increase in BMR, “forcing” the body to become more sensitive to insulin, more efficient at protein synthesis and deposition, more efficient at nutrient uptake and at fat mobilization and utilization) far outweigh it’s CATABOLIC properties? (That same increase in BMR and the increase in cortisol?)


    2)Can’t those “negatives” be overcome a)first with smart dieting, and then b)with focused supplementation?


    Hey…this may be heresy to a lot of
    “guru’s” and “experts”…but I say, "you wanna put on the mass? DO YOUR CARDIO/AEROBICS!


    Can we talk?

2

Right on Mufasa, another point that I personally have noticed is that ever since I have started doing martial arts which is ridiculously intense cardio my max squat has gone up and I am finding that doing slow tempo breathing squats is easier also! I think that post cardio cortisol isn’t really the huge problem that people make it out to be. I just use my hours worth of cardio a day to eat a ridiculously hyoooge Protien/Carb meal to pump my insulin up (another anabolic hormone). Good Thread man. ~PorchDawg

3

I think you bring out some good points; however, all those “positives” that you mentioned in point #2 can be achieved through weight training alone, and without cardio. I just can’t see a practical reason to incorporate cardio while attempting to gain mass; it essentially counteracts what you are trying to accomplish through weight training. Many authorities will argue that it is not neccesary at all, even while dieting. Poliquin being one example. I do like to incorporate it occasionally to speed up fat loss when on a cutting cycle; however, that is the only time. And yes, it is essential to pay close attention to post-cardio nutrition and supplementation to keep those “negatives” to a minimum. Like i said, it can help you reach your fat loss goals quicker, but anything positive (in an anabolic sense) that it brings about can be achieved solely through weight training.

4

Actually, your post makes me laugh. You know why? Well, until very, very recently, it was almost a T-Mag articles philosophy to skip cardio altogether, along with various explanations. Then JB suggested that cardio maybe is not that bad at all and slowly people started getting back on the cardio wagon. Now we have the whole cardio movement here. Therefore, I’d say that there are certain aspects where almost all muscle mags are the same, and that is touting one principle and then switching to the opposite. :wink:

5

I think you make some very interesting arguements and might be right to some degree. I think if your cardio is reasonable and does’nt put you into an overtrained state than it can definately contribute to anabolism. I know when I run 2 miles, three times a week, as fast as I can, I don’t sacrifice any size on my legs or anywhere else. In addition I find my legs get a little harder and better defined. I also achieve a better sense of well being, probably due in part to improved oxygen efficiency. Even if cardio did prevent you from adding an extra 1/2 inch to your legs, so what. Unless your a pro bber this is of little cosequence and the benefits to your heart will be well worth it. I also believe that the improved oxygen efficiency gained by doing cardio will allow you to push a little harder in your lift workouts. This would result in improved gains, provided proper nutrition and recuperation is followed.

6

Excellent points Mufasa, but too much of anything can have its drawbacks. Good for you for taking a stand against the anti-cardio mentality. Cardio is important to general health, and definetly can add a hardness and quality to one’s physique. Cardio is a must to help remove the metabolic ‘wastes’ left over from weight training week in and week out.

7

Very well put, Mufasa. I couldn’t agree more with every point you presented. My own work outs have always been more intense during periods when I’ve also kept at the cardio and and maintained an efficient “in shape” cardiovascular system. However, at times, due to either time constraints or just “laxness”, and I’ve let the cardio slide to the point where I actually lose cardiovascular fitness, then my lifting also starts to suffer, I have less energy and seem to want to eat more while expending less and LBM/strength gains slow down while fat gains start to increase. I’ve always hated cardio and had to “force” myself to do it, but at 45yo, I’ve seen the light. I’m in my best condition and make more consistent gains when I do my brief, intense cardio first thing in the morn and then lift in the evening after work. Cardio keeps my energy levels up and when I adapted cardio into my morning schedule, it just became habit and I had no “excuse” not to do it. I actually find cardio first thing in the morn “invigorating” while when I used to try to schedule cardio after work instead, I was always “too burnt out” from the day to get enthused about “monotonous cardio”.

8

(Axy; your are DA’MAN! If still laughing at the term “Cum Dumpster” from the “Off Topic” Forum! You need to start a list of “Axy-isms”…sorta’ like “Yogi Berra-isms!”)Anyway…


That’s my point, Axy. This stuff has gone back and forth…and there probably is no “right” answer. But there is one thing I’ve found out about honest debate. You throw it out there…hear all sides…and then come to your own conclusion…


That’s what I’m hoping to do…

9

Dawg: Ain’t Martial Arts more anaerobic? I’ve always put my karate, kickboxing and boxing in the “anaerobic” bracket.

And doesn't need of cardio/aerobic depend on the level of BF of the individual? Like, I'm already pretty lean - so I'm not going to do alot of cardio. And when I do run - I lose alot of muscle in my legs. I have found that since I have cut down the amount of cardio - to the point of zero - my muscle remains intact and I have absolutely no problem at keeping my BF low. I seriously believe the need of cardio is dependent upon individual needs.

10

This is a bit of guess work on my part, but I put some thought into it. Since it’s well known that cardio can improve the onset of blood lactate accumulation, through(I’m assuming) increase mitochondrial density, I thought perhaps it can improve our tolerance to lactic acid build up in muscles. I realise the increased mitochondrial density won’t help anaerobic work capacity much, but what about other pathways. I looked around on PubMed and found a study on aerobic training in horses. After an eight month trianing period, lactate dehydrogenase had decreasedin the gluteus tissue(unfortunately, no values were given), along with other noted improvements in performance/physiology. This enzyme(if my understanding isn’t flawed) is responsible for increasing the development of lactic acid as it converts pyruvate into lactic acid… And as pH decreases, the muscles ability to contract is comprimised. Does this have any implication for anaerobic training, could chronic aerobic training lead to an increased anaerobic work capacity(ability to squeeze out a few more reps)? I don’t have a very in depth education in this matter, could someone elaborate on all the crap I wrote above for me=) ?

11

Well, I used to have 1,5-2 hour long cardio sessions when I dieted for the first time in the wrong way. However, I still do cardio, bulking or cutting. I tend to eat adequate amount of food and I have never had problems growing while doing cardio, and I think it does wonders for my cardiovascular health. Yes, it is boring like hell but I read newspapers while cycling or being on ellipticals, so I manage somehow. Right now I am bulking and doing 4 x 30 min/week after weight training, moderate intensity. However, I am a “fat hardgainer”, have slow metabolic rate and like you pointed out, your mileage may vary and therefore everybody should try everything ,adapt what works the best and dismiss the rest. There is no other way in this bodybuilding game. I know several national level competitors who don’t do cardio at all when preparing for competition… but most of them do the cardio sessions, a lot of them… so… :slight_smile:

12

Are we going to settle a physiological question with arguments? What is required is controlled studies. All the opinions of what happens in your body is anecdotal experience and not scientific proof. That is why someone with an opposite result to yours is just as right as you are. Since opposite results can’t both be right one of you must be mistaken.

Years ago Larry Scott gave a very intelligent seminar. He actually knew what one was! Anyway, he believed that you had to do everything possible to assist muscle growth while avoiding anything that would prevent or slow muscle growth. He believed in pumping the muscles to the max and then resting that muscle. If he trained arms he wouldn’t even play table tennis because he believed that might interfere with growth and prevent any happening. We all know that Larry did build some of the best arms ever seen on a human and some of the most impressive for a man with a small frame.

I believe that we can adapt to all manner of stresses. It is obvious that we can adapt to both aerobic and anaerobic exercises. There have been men like Sergio Oliva who worked hard at a physically demanding job and then went to the gym at night and still grew. However, that you can grow while doing aerobics doesn’t mean it is desirable or optimum. The idea was that fitter people could train harder and thus make better gains. Some bodybuilders make their calves grow by doing long sessions on steppers or steep treadmills.

My opinion is that some aerobic exercise is advised but is not necessary. I have heard of some bodybuilders who get so heavy in the off season that they have trouble moving about. Those guys should do more aerobic work to assist their fitness and mobility. They obviously don’t need aerobics to get huge.

13

I agree with all of you that cardio is and can be essential to a well rounded program, i’ve found that during periods when I’ve maintained adequate cardio vascular ability i’m much better on later sets during my workout meaning my overall work volume and density is higher. cardio also allows recovery workouts inbetween heavy sessions which gets blood into the muscles without putting high tensions on them, therefor I believe to add in recovery, as long as the cardio sessions are not to intense. BUT I do feel that too much cardio can drain our systems if done to regularly, for too long a duration or at high intensities. there is also the matter of fibre type conversion to think about- large amounts of cardio (or high volume weight training) can lead to type IIb converting to IIa or type I which may not be a good thing if your trying to gain mass. You are also asking the body to adapt to multiple stimuli which may slow gains slighlty, I think it was zatsiorski (spelling?) who stated that training for different motor abilities may be better done sequantially than together. overall I feel a sensible program would include a moderate amount of low intensity aerobic/CV work during a mass phase, but consideration for its place and added dietary requiremnets should be factored in. As stated by someone else on this site the truth is usually in the middle

14

For a while, I fell into the “don’t do cardio” routine. You know what? I felt like shit! And I was out of shape (even though I still hit the weights 3-4 days a week). I think some type of cardio is needed to have an overall healthy lifestyle. I personally prefer doing outdoor activities (mountain biking, in-line skating, sprinting, swimming, etc) rather than running on a treadmill or using a stationary bike. And as long as I get in a few days a week of that type of activity, I feel better, look better and function better.

15

the only problem i have is the possibility of some fibers to convert to being more slow twitch. since i would like all the fast twitch fibers i can get. Plus i generate lactate like crazy when i do cardio. And i just plain hate it.

16

I have a real problem with your holier than tho attitude that if a study hasn’t been done than results mean nothing. You are right that we are all different and that what might work well for one individual, may not be optimum for another. And that is why studies have there short comings as well. What a study may find with one type of group may not apply to another type group. And some studies are just poorly designed - perhaps to direct the out come to “prove” a preconceived theory. Personally, I believe in seeing how I respond to various programs and stimili and then decide whether it’s beneficial to me. I don’t necessarily need a study to prove or disprove what I’ve spent a lifetime developing for myself. New info gained from “studies” is definately worth considering and trying for ones self, but should be approached with a grain of skepticism until proven to work for ones self. Just because a study hasn’t been done doesn’t invalidate my life long experiments on my own training and nutrition lifestyle. I’ll continue to do what works for me. I don’t have time to wait for “studies” that may not mean much anyway.

17

What if you are on a bulking phase and your trying to get in as many calories as you can, won’t doing cardio burn those calories that you are trying to gain some weight with? I am not debating anything, just asking because I don’t know.

18

I have to agree with Heb - both individual case studies and controlled laboratory studies have their downfalls because all of us have our individual differences. I have always been a firm believer that the answer to any question lies in three areas:

1. Is there a logical and scientifically sound reason to believe that doing A will cause B. (will doing cardio improve our ability to grow muscle?) We can obviously discuss this without controlled studies.

2. What does the research show? We of course need to look through the research, but just because it is published does not mean it is true. Remember with something like over 10,000 scientific journals (and countless books, newsletters, websites and muscle mags) there is always a place to publish your article.

3. What are peoples' experience in the gym? Obviously something we can definately talk about here on the forum.

The problems that we will have discussing this topic range on people's interpretation of the terms. Some consider cardio training for a maration, while others consider a strenous cardiovascular workout a walk around the block. We all know that training for a marathon is absolutely going to rob us of our ability to build big muscles. Aside from that, a person's required dosage of cardio is very individual.

We have already touched on question #1. There are clearly benefits of doing cardio for growing muscle: improved insulin sensitivity, increased nutrient uptake into the muscles, improved work capacity, increased ability to handle lactic acid.

We definately need to expand on question #2. I'll take a look and I hope some other people can. Lets see what the research says.

As for question #3 - I like cardio. Currently, I am in fairly poor cardiovascular shape compared to where I have been. I think my work capacity is lower now, but I cannot tell if it is significantly affecting my workouts. As I write this, I am realizing that I need to focus more on my cardiovascular fitness rather than just putting in the time to burn some calories.

Obviously, the mains concerns about cardio are 1)its boring to a lot of people and 2)it can be catabolic if done excessively.

Number 1 is easy - find something you do like or suck it up and do it anyway (we do this everyday with fish and flax oil).

Number 2 is more complex - monitor your caloric intake, recovery index, and body composition and I think that most people can come up with a good medium by making the proper adjustements to cardio duration/intensity and caloric intake. No study will be able to show me how much cardio I need. I need to be my own subject and go from there. I need some cardio; I just need to figure out how much.

19

The answer to your question is yes. You will have to eat more to make up for the calories burned with cardio. Of course you will have to eat to make up those calories, but cardio may have benefits that make it worth stuffing our faces with a few more calories like improved insulin sensitivity, increased recovery (getting blood flow to recently trained muscles) and some others that people have touched on.

20

Cardio is an extensive part of my gain process–in fact, during dieting, i may cut it down a bit–i like to partition calories during lean gain, esp. high GI carbs and cardio helps to do this…when dieting I only hit the ellip, as I seem to be like Patsy–leg muscle goes to hell when dieting with running on the mill
I AM OUT
Vain68