Cardio and Bulking Up? Help!

[IronWarrior24]

[quote]Scott M wrote:
Most people don’t have that much trouble eating enough anyway,

Do you really think that most people don’t have trouble eating enough? I’m not seeing a bunch of powerfully built but soft people on this site or in the gym. I see a lot of skinny guys who are under muscled.[/quote]

A lot of skinny guys that you see who are under muscled do not necessarily have trouble eating enough. In many cases, they just don’t try to eat enough. This problem just seems to go along with the fact that the mind set in popular culture today is that eating an abundance of food is bad. Many under muscled skinny guys think that they can get “ripped” by not eating hardly anything and doing other things that are detrimental to gaining mass. In most cases, under eating is not a problem, but a choice.

When guys first try to eat the way I do(because they asked me what the hell I’m doing to grow so consistently) they feel bloated as shit all day and complain about the food all the damn time. Those that stick with it long enough(and do their cardio) have their metabolism catch up eventually and turn into a food processing machine and start flying up the scale weight,

So you agree that cardio aids in increasing the rate of one’s metabolism? In the attempt to gain muscle mass, especially for people who tend to have trouble gaining weight in the first place, increasing one’s metabolism isn’t necessarily a good thing.

[quote]Another thing you have to remember is that the calorie burning effects of cardio do not end with the completion of the cardio regimen. The effects of cardio, namely an increased stimulation of the body’s metabolism, continue for quite some time after the completion of the cardio.

This means that not only are you burning calories during the cardio, but doing the cardio in the first place increases your metabolism, thereby making mass gains even more difficult to attain throughout the day, despite a slight increase in the person’s ability to eat. So any benefit that cardio might have on a person’s ability to eat more is outweighed by the body’s inability to gain mass due to an increased metabolism.

Except for extremely ectomorphic people when has an increased metabolism ever been a problem?[/quote]

To anyone trying to gain the maximum amount of muscle possible.

The appetite increase is a small part of the picture to me as the appetite follows the food intake(progressive eating, metabolism will catch up).

Then that pretty much rules out the need for cardio in that regard.

I’d rather have all my bases covered with the eating to grow every darn ounce of muscle I killed myself in the gym for(enough food that I would get fat on it’s own) and do enough cardio to leave me in a satisfactory leanness.

Doing cardio would be detrimental to growing every ounce of muscle you killed yourself for in the gym.

For young trainees or ectomorphic people that might be 0 times, maybe twice. Middle of the road 2-4 times, very endomorphic or the over 35 crowd maybe 4-6. The point is the person has to figure out how much THEY need for themselves.

The OP is 6’1" tall and weighs around 184 pounds. I would consider that to be ectomorphic as I’m sure he’s put on some size with weight training. Now, in your earlier post you recommended that he do cardio 3 times a week, but now you say ectomorphic people should do it 0 times a week, MAYBE twice. That’s quite different. Now, did you even look to see how much he weighed, or did you just jump in without even checking just to defend what you feel works for you?

[Stronghold]

[quote]IronWarrior24 wrote:
Then what’s the point of doing the cardio? Let’s assume that doing the cardio will allow you to eat more. However, doing the cardio is going to burn calories. What makes you think that doing cardio will enable you to eat more calories than you burned? It’s pointless in that regard.

You can eat a little more, but you sacrifice calories just to be able to do that. Most people don’t have that much trouble eating enough anyway, and anybody who does would not benefit from doing cardio as they would need to preserve every calorie possible.

Another thing you have to remember is that the calorie burning effects of cardio do not end with the completion of the cardio regimen. The effects of cardio, namely an increased stimulation of the body’s metabolism, continue for quite some time after the completion of the cardio.

This means that not only are you burning calories during the cardio, but doing the cardio in the first place increases your metabolism, thereby making mass gains even more difficult to attain throughout the day, despite a slight increase in the person’s ability to eat. So any benefit that cardio might have on a person’s ability to eat more is outweighed by the body’s inability to gain mass due to an increased metabolism.

[/quote]

Read this:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=909183

1. What makes me think it will allow me to eat more calories? My personal experience. When I do my cardio, I am hungry ALL DAY. Within 45 minutes of finishing a meal, Im starting to get that empty feeling. Were not talking any sort of slight increase, were talking an all day hungry feeling. 1000 or so clean calories worth. On days I do cardio, I can put down 10 oz of chicken, a large salad, and a bowl of chili every 2.5 hours no problem. Other days, that meal makes me full for 4 hours.

2. Steady state cardio has little effect on the metabolism after the completion of the activity.

3. The furnace example has been used for metabolism before, but Im going to apply it to this idea:

Food is the firewood and oxygen equates to activities that expend calories. You can throw all of the firewood you want onto a fire, but if youre not giving it air, then its going to smother itself (fat gain). However, if you add ample firewood and increase the amount of available oxygen, then the fire is going to burn hotter and hotter. The fire burning hotter and hotter is an effect of the process becoming more and more effective (gaining more muscle).

4. I honestly do not think Dante Trudel would be having his national level NPC and IFBB light heavies doing cardio while taking them to superheavies if it was going to slow that process down. I honestly do not think that Dante Trudel would have ever been 280+ lbs of big ass dude if off season cardio was a muscle killer like you are implying.

5. IronWarrior, how much experience gaining mass do you have? How long have you been at this? Im only asking because I seem to remember some posts that you made several months ago in which you stated that starting strength (one of the most effective beginner programs ever) would not work for a beginner and that, rather than waving intensity, one should just go as heavy as possible every day. This leads me to question how much of what you are talking about you actually know.

[system]

[quote]Scott M wrote:
For young trainees or ectomorphic people that might be 0 times, maybe twice. Middle of the road 2-4 times, very endomorphic or the over 35 crowd maybe 4-6. The point is the person has to figure out how much THEY need for themselves. [/quote]

I would just like to say that I am 17 and I do cardio nearly everyday. I have seen it only improve my work capacity and energy levels.

[IronWarrior24]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
IronWarrior, how much experience gaining mass do you have? How long have you been at this? Im only asking because I seem to remember some posts that you made several months ago in which you stated that starting strength (one of the most effective beginner programs ever) would not work for a beginner and that, rather than waving intensity, one should just go as heavy as possible every day. This leads me to question how much of what you are talking about you actually know.[/quote]

Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again, because that wasn’t quite what was said. Also, if you have such a strong opinion on how effective the program is, why is it that you didn’t post anywhere in the thread to defend it?

[aaron_groves]

Iam reading some brillant info here guys cheers for the help KEEP IT UP, lets just keep it to providing the info and let the arguments go else where please.

thanks

azz

[BossMike]

I say, depending on you BMR, the cals your taking in should be good enough to bulk, and if ur keeping Fat intake as low as you posted, wont have to do cardio to prevent a messy/sloppy bulk. HOWEVER, doing cardio will improve your lifts, guaranteed, just one of the many benefits of cardio in general, and you wont notice a significant decrease in wind. even if you dont play sports, you will still notice your heart working harder to pull that extra weight if you dont specifically train your cardiovascular system.

running/sprinting i would recommend, if you can, in my opinion its by far the best. but i say moderate intensity sessions twice a week. it will slow down your gains, true enough. BUT, if its quality you are looking for, then thats what you want. I am speaking from experience.

[aaron_groves]

[quote]BossMike wrote:
I say, depending on you BMR, the cals your taking in should be good enough to bulk, and if ur keeping Fat intake as low as you posted, wont have to do cardio to prevent a messy/sloppy bulk. HOWEVER, doing cardio will improve your lifts, guaranteed, just one of the many benefits of cardio in general, and you wont notice a significant decrease in wind. even if you dont play sports, you will still notice your heart working harder to pull that extra weight if you dont specifically train your cardiovascular system. running/sprinting i would recommend, if you can, in my opinion its by far the best. but i say moderate intensity sessions twice a week. it will slow down your gains, true enough. BUT, if its quality you are looking for, then thats what you want. I am speaking from experience.[/quote]

thanks dude

[BossMike]

[quote]astraturbo wrote:
BossMike wrote:
I say, depending on you BMR, the cals your taking in should be good enough to bulk, and if ur keeping Fat intake as low as you posted, wont have to do cardio to prevent a messy/sloppy bulk. HOWEVER, doing cardio will improve your lifts, guaranteed, just one of the many benefits of cardio in general, and you wont notice a significant decrease in wind. even if you dont play sports, you will still notice your heart working harder to pull that extra weight if you dont specifically train your cardiovascular system. running/sprinting i would recommend, if you can, in my opinion its by far the best. but i say moderate intensity sessions twice a week. it will slow down your gains, true enough. BUT, if its quality you are looking for, then thats what you want. I am speaking from experience.

thanks dude
[/quote]

no prob, where are you at and what is your goal by the way in terms of weight and body fat

[Justin_Negrete]

I have integrated cardio throughout my routines for the past 6 months. I was at 118 last summer. I was a long distance runner. So i decided to learn about lifting weights and focusing on diet. Im currently 136, do Waterbury routines, and integrate cardio every week. I mix it up, sometimes morning steady state, sometimes sprint work. Running, Rowing, cycling. maybe my gains could have been more if i cut out cardio. But the boost it seems to give to appetite, AND mood i might mention. I dont plan to cut cardio, i want to be healthy, fit and strong.