Carbs Cycling Experience

Nutrition
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[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
elusive wrote:
Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.

Haha. You are nuts. I could never handle that many carbs.

I’m glad Dr. Clay got in on this.

Anyone have an opinion on how many carbs is too low for low days? I’m 192 lbs, at about 1900 cals and 30g carbs on low days. 2100 cals and 75g carbs on medium days. Also, if I’m about 14% bf, what should I shoot for on refeed days? [/quote]

Hey Hulk,

I’ve read so many conflicting views on this subject. What I’ve gathered so far is if you’re on an extreme cut (in terms of calories), you should probably get your money’s worth on refeed days and shoot for ~500 calories over maintenance. I’ve also heard it’s counterproductive to eat less than your maintenance calorie level because it doesn’t shock your body and provide the proper hormone, metabolic, anabolic response otherwise.

I’m on a similar cut as you…roughly 1,850 kcal a day but very low carbs. Only around 30g…but I’m cycling protein more or less…weird I know. I’m shooting for 20X’s BW (3,660) calories on my refeed day. I went way over that, like 5,000 kcal on my first and experienced extreme stomach discomfort all day.

Elusive has mentioned to experiment as this is a fairly new concept to find out what exactly works for you. Nobody’s gonna touch that guy’s refeeds. He’s the T-Nation king but he eats like a bird to “earn” it on the refeed ha!

I hope Dr. Clay weighs in on this whole concept. If you find you’re burning fat and dropping lbs. while maintaining strength, my question is a refeed even necessary? Maybe Shugart could discuss why the Velocity Diet (very low calorie/carb cycling) doesn’t have a refeed?

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[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
elusive wrote:
Quick Update:

Ice Cream with chocolate syrup and whipped cream on top of waffles is delicious.

Okay, carry on.

Haha. You are nuts. I could never handle that many carbs.

I’m glad Dr. Clay got in on this.

Anyone have an opinion on how many carbs is too low for low days? I’m 192 lbs, at about 1900 cals and 30g carbs on low days. 2100 cals and 75g carbs on medium days. Also, if I’m about 14% bf, what should I shoot for on refeed days? [/quote]

Like phatkins mentioned, I think you should experiment with what you can get away with. I would first start with 4 grams of carb x your Lean Body Mass (because this is the LOWEST amount I’ve seen recommended). Aim for about a gram of protein per pound and try to keep fat as low as you can. Keep an eye on the scale (measure your weight before breakfast the morning OF the refeed and see how long it takes to get back to this #). If you get back to baseline in 4 days, I would keep the refeed the same or maybe make it slightly smaller. 3 days? Keep it the same or maybe slightly larger. 2 days? Make it larger next time. Experiment with the amount of carbs until you figure out what works best for you.

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I’ll start with 4 grams x lean body mass like you recommended and move on from there.

What about fiber? I read somewhere (think it was a thibs article) that the author didn’t even count carbs from veggies because they come mostly from fiber. So should I count veggie carbs in any of my days?

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If you’re eating normal amounts of fiberous green veggies then I wouldn’t count it towards my totals. However, if you feel that you’re eating a ton, then I would consider adding it towards my totals.

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[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback guys. I’ll start with 4 grams x lean body mass like you recommended and move on from there.

What about fiber? I read somewhere (think it was a thibs article) that the author didn’t even count carbs from veggies because they come mostly from fiber. So should I count veggie carbs in any of my days?[/quote]

On a huge caloric restriction (non-carb up day) I try to count every bit of food I ingest. I love spinach, especially because I can get a few tbsp of olive oil on it…but there’s a SMALL amount of carbs there. I think you should be more concerned with calories at first. Good luck on your cut man…dieting is fun…NOT!

126

Guys:

I was curious as to how to calculate the refeed, and I got to thinking. Based on elusive saying that, as long as the weekly caloric intake favors growth…

Say you need 20xLBM to grow, and you are cutting with 10xLBM

Factoring in a refeed once a week (every 7th day):

Amt cals per day to grow x 7 days a week = weekly amount of cals to grow

Amt cals per day to cut x 7 days per cut = weekly amount of cals for cutting

Subtract second from first to achieve the difference that needs to be consumed once a week

In my case, I am 170 and (estimated) 20% bf…I got 9,520 calories for my refeed

I am sure I need to work up to that amount and that I need to gauge the carbs, but just throwing out ideas here.

EDIT: I DID mean second from first, sorry.

127

P-

I may not fully understand your concept, but it appears you’d always end up with a refeed the same size of your cut. Did you mean subtract the 2nd from the 1st? Even so…it’s the same size as your weekly intake on a cut. Is that what you are going for? Also, where does the 20% come into the equation? Did someone mention T-Nation calculator? Haha!

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Yeah, I’m a bit confused with what you’re suggesting Ponce… maybe its my carb coma I’m slipping into. lol. Are you thinking of a refeed cycle as a tool to cut down or add size?

Either way, I think a handy dandy refeed calculator would do the trick here! (shameless plug).

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OKAY. Just finished off my eating for the day. I AM STUFFED. I didn’t even open my fat-free chocolate fudge ice cream or my chocolate sorbet. I have one bagel left over too. So that gives me ROUGHLY 2,613 carbs on the day. The pics I took actually don’t look too bad (bloated) compared to other weeks. I think its because of my constant “bathroom breaks” lol.

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heres a side shot. Just to note, I’m TRYING to flex my abs in these photos.

I weighed in at 201.7 lbs.

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LOL, elusive…good to see you’re still kickin! How did it go and do you have a monstrous pot belly?

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Nice refeed elusive!

I’ve found this thread filled with very interesting information, and I’m soaking it up.

I’m curious - what does your training schedule look like? Are you incorporating heavy lifting? I’ve heard it’s beneficial for maintaining muscle mass. And how’s your split look?

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Some how I made some more room and decided to open up my Chocolate Fudge Ice cream. Scooped out about 2/3rds of it into a bowl and topped it with whipped cream and chocolate syrup. This is definitly my last meal before I pass out =)

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[quote]Burst wrote:
Nice refeed elusive!

I’ve found this thread filled with very interesting information, and I’m soaking it up.

I’m curious - what does your training schedule look like? Are you incorporating heavy lifting? I’ve heard it’s beneficial for maintaining muscle mass. And how’s your split look?[/quote]

My training split is Legs, Chest/Tri, Back/Bi and Shoulders/forearms. A 4 day split thats rotated around a 6 day schedule. I don’t train on my refeed days. As of late (because my goal throughout the week is to deplete glycogen) I do about 12-16 sets per muscle group (Legs, Chest, Back and Shoulders) and I aim for 12-15 reps to failure or near failure. During my bulk I aimed for 8-12 reps, but like I said, I’m now aiming to be completely depleted by the end of the week. I tend to land at the 12 rep mark. I also only do 6-8 sets for smaller muscle groups like triceps, biceps, forearms and calves.

I also try to rest slightly less in between sets, but not significantly shorter than normal.

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Ohh okay, I understand. You’ve clearly found that heavy lifting isn’t a necessity. I like that.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you have your low, medium and high carb days? Does the idea of a placing all the carbs into a PWO shake make sense? Or do you spread the carbs you’re allowed throughout the day? I’ve heard that “timed carb” diets are effective, where people are allowed PWO shakes after training containing high amounts of carbs, and then that’s it until the refeed day.

Jeez, I tell ya, we’re lucky to have you around. You’ve been on a tear around these forums, answering questions left and right. You ought to get paid!

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[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
P-

I may not fully understand your concept, but it appears you’d always end up with a refeed the same size of your cut. Did you mean subtract the 2nd from the 1st? Even so…it’s the same size as your weekly intake on a cut. Is that what you are going for? Also, where does the 20% come into the equation? Did someone mention T-Nation calculator? Haha![/quote]

Sorry, I was watching 28 Days Later and tired and trying to study when I made that post…

20% = body fat level

I did mean subtract second from first.

I am using this as a tool for a cut, although now I see what you two are asking. Yes, the refeed itself would roughly equal the entire week’s intake for a cutting phase.

The idea is to run a deficit throughout the week and try for a refeed that would keep metabolism high and refill glycogen.

If I was bulking, I’d take in probably 18-20xLBM and use 30xLBM to figure out the refeed.

A difference of 10xLBM would actually be the same intake as in the cutting scenario, so it looks like the refeed would be of the same size regardless of cutting/bulking, at least according to my equation, with the only difference between the two dieting scenarios being the intake during the week before the refeed, i.e. above or below maintenance on those days.

However, in BOTH cases (cutting/bulking), the weekly intake of CARBS would still be cycled and probably the same amount of grams intake, but only the total daily calories would change. Otherwise, the refeed would contain more/less carbs.

I really want to know what Dr. Clay thinks here…

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This thread is gold!

I’ve been on a cut for about 2-4 weeks but progress has been stalling. Today, I’m trying a high carbohydrate refeed day, about 500grams of carbs. Can’t wait to see how it affects my fat loss over the next two to three days. I wonder how it would turn out since I’m carb adapted/asian.

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Following some of the post here i got my hand on a few ebook written by Lyle Mcdonald, great stuff to read.

The refeed,carbs,cal,fats…are all covered…

so thanks to a few of you guys, im gonna have fun time reading!

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[quote]Burst wrote:
Ohh okay, I understand. You’ve clearly found that heavy lifting isn’t a necessity. I like that.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you have your low, medium and high carb days? Does the idea of a placing all the carbs into a PWO shake make sense? Or do you spread the carbs you’re allowed throughout the day? I’ve heard that “timed carb” diets are effective, where people are allowed PWO shakes after training containing high amounts of carbs, and then that’s it until the refeed day.

Jeez, I tell ya, we’re lucky to have you around. You’ve been on a tear around these forums, answering questions left and right. You ought to get paid![/quote]

Thanks.

Yeah I have days with carbs and days with out basically throughout the week. Then I have my refeed (which is my High day, I guess). I tend to have the vast majority of my carbs at breakfast, just because I enjoy my oatmeal in the morning. It WOULD make sense to have them PWO, though. I find that personally, I function much better throughout the day when I have a bowl of oats in the morning.

On the training side of things. In my experience (keep in mind, its limited and very narrow in comparison to others), people OVER DO the whole catabolism thing. I think many people are OVERLY worried about losing muscle and its not really a BIG concern if weightlifting consistantly and eating enough protein. I honestly think that the muscle loss that these people claim is just fatloss, them appearing smaller (because they’re finally not fat for the first time in their life) and assuming they “had” more muscle to begin with. Also, strength can be down and to some, this is an indicator of muscle loss… not true.

140

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
phatkins187 wrote:
P-

I may not fully understand your concept, but it appears you’d always end up with a refeed the same size of your cut. Did you mean subtract the 2nd from the 1st? Even so…it’s the same size as your weekly intake on a cut. Is that what you are going for? Also, where does the 20% come into the equation? Did someone mention T-Nation calculator? Haha!

Sorry, I was watching 28 Days Later and tired and trying to study when I made that post…

20% = body fat level

I did mean subtract second from first.

I am using this as a tool for a cut, although now I see what you two are asking. Yes, the refeed itself would roughly equal the entire week’s intake for a cutting phase.

The idea is to run a deficit throughout the week and try for a refeed that would keep metabolism high and refill glycogen.

If I was bulking, I’d take in probably 18-20xLBM and use 30xLBM to figure out the refeed.

A difference of 10xLBM would actually be the same intake as in the cutting scenario, so it looks like the refeed would be of the same size regardless of cutting/bulking, at least according to my equation, with the only difference between the two dieting scenarios being the intake during the week before the refeed, i.e. above or below maintenance on those days.

However, in BOTH cases (cutting/bulking), the weekly intake of CARBS would still be cycled and probably the same amount of grams intake, but only the total daily calories would change. Otherwise, the refeed would contain more/less carbs.

I really want to know what Dr. Clay thinks here…[/quote]

I think as long as the week’s intake is done right, it really won’t matter how BIG your refeed will be. Use the week to burn the most fat that you can and enjoy the refeed.

The low days (during the week) are used to burn fat, so don’t be afraid to set out to do that. The refeed day is set up to refill glycogen and recharge the metabolism, don’t be afraid to eat.

On a side note, Lyle McDonald feels that the whole “lose 2lbs a week” thing is bullshit. Has no idea where this number came from and thinks if you can lose more weekly, the better.