Carbs Cycling Experience

Nutrition
761

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
1/4in off your waist in a week is pretty good actually and if your doing the protein pulsing it’s possible you did a slight recomp this week. I wouldn’t sweat it but I agree that after 7 weeks things would most likely get significantly slower. What did you do from week 3-4 that you lost 6lb. after stalling?
/quote]

It’s possible I guess. I certainly felt good in the gym this afternoon for a strength session, although my weights were pretty much the same apart from being slightly up with the pull-up. I decided to just do upper body and do lower tomorrow to give my problem calf an extra day to recover - although I managed a very gently 20min jog staight afterwards with no negative efects. As a result, my weights session lasted 29mins. It is also substantially cooler here this weekend so that must have helped because last weekend I was sweating buckets in my garage gym.

Regarding the 6lbs drop week: listen mate, that week was one of the worst of my life for personal reasons. The only silver lining was the 6lbs weight drop!!!
Look forward to hearing your updates.

762

Anyone have any favorite marinades for Low Carb days (still relatively low fat) for chicken especially?

763

[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
Anyone have any favorite marinades for Low Carb days (still relatively low fat) for chicken especially?[/quote]

One thing I really like is putting olive oil in a pan, cut up pieces of chicken in, put a tbsp of hot sauce in, and I like to add a little water just to have more liquid

another alternative is instead of the hot sauce you add any mustard you like, sweetener (I use stevia), and pepper.

Both are really good, I’ve started to just combine the 2 and add hot sauce, mustard, and stevia…it’s really good.

btw heres a pic lol: http://webmail.aol.com/42952/aol/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=1.27279690&folder=NewMail&partId=2

I think you need aol to be able to see it, it’s pretty damn good if I do say so myself

764

Well first workout on the GSD today (I did one friday but that was basically the first day in the morning so it wouldn’t have effected it). Strength was down a little unfortunately. Not huge amounts but definitely some. Gotta keep pushing I guess.

765

Thought I would give you guys an update of my diet. I have slowly tapered up my carbs and calories and am able to start trying to gain mass again. I thought I would be at least at maintenance calories last week but I still lost some weight (2 lbs). So I am upping my cals to adjust. I am not quite as lean as I once was mainly due to some wedding anniversary binging but that is okay. Since increasing my food intake my workouts have been going great and strength is increasing rapidly. I am using the troponin nutrition counting method (meaning I don’t count green veggies, the fat in chicken, or the protein in oatmeal etc) and here is what I am liking right now.

Low Day- 300 pro, 100 carb, 70 fat
Med Day- 300 pro, 300 carb, 40 fat
High Day-240 pro, 600 carb, fats as low as possible

I am doing 2 high, 2 low, and 3 medium days a week. Usually my cals are around 3000 on low days, 3500 on medium days, and 4000 on high days. I never thought I would need this many calories but I have a pretty demanding summer job (construction) so pairing that with lifting 6x a week requires a lot of food I guess. Hopefully the scale will go up this week. I am currently at 195 lbs and estimating 10% BF.

766

[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
Anyone have any favorite marinades for Low Carb days (still relatively low fat) for chicken especially?[/quote]

Check out www.waldenfarms.com - huge selection of zero calorie items

767

[quote]ShelbyStarnes wrote:
IronAbrams wrote:
Anyone have any favorite marinades for Low Carb days (still relatively low fat) for chicken especially?

Check out www.waldenfarms.com - huge selection of zero calorie items[/quote]

Really appreciate your input in this thread Shelby.

I was looking at your recommendations for grams of carbs…can “endo’s” really get extremely lean with such high amounts? The recommendations put me at about 400g on high days which would be twice a week or so, then around 200 on medium days and 80 on low days. I guess it’s because I’ve been on low carbs for so long but that just seems like a picnic right now! lol

Right now I’m trying to lose fat and only have 1 high day of about 350g, all the other days being no carb (CKD). I guess the proof is in the results I’ve seen from you and your clients, but I’m just wondering if you feel this strategy is optimal for endo’s trying to lose a lot of fat?

As for bulking, I assume we would just raise calories with the same %'s and maybe add in another high day. I have had success with a similar method to this for bulking, it’s just the cutting I’m worried about. It seems like much more and higher intensity cardio would have to be done with the carb cycling method too compared to the CKD, is that something you’ve noticed?

768

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Thought I would give you guys an update of my diet. I have slowly tapered up my carbs and calories and am able to start trying to gain mass again. I thought I would be at least at maintenance calories last week but I still lost some weight (2 lbs). So I am upping my cals to adjust. I am not quite as lean as I once was mainly due to some wedding anniversary binging but that is okay. Since increasing my food intake my workouts have been going great and strength is increasing rapidly. I am using the troponin nutrition counting method (meaning I don’t count green veggies, the fat in chicken, or the protein in oatmeal etc) and here is what I am liking right now.

Low Day- 300 pro, 100 carb, 70 fat
Med Day- 300 pro, 300 carb, 40 fat
High Day-240 pro, 600 carb, fats as low as possible

I am doing 2 high, 2 low, and 3 medium days a week. Usually my cals are around 3000 on low days, 3500 on medium days, and 4000 on high days. I never thought I would need this many calories but I have a pretty demanding summer job (construction) so pairing that with lifting 6x a week requires a lot of food I guess. Hopefully the scale will go up this week. I am currently at 195 lbs and estimating 10% BF.[/quote]

good stuff man. I’m confused though, are you saying you’ve been continuing to lose weight this whole time but your less lean?

As for the breakdown of the days, damn I guess it’s just because I’ve been cutting for awhile, and low carb even longer (last june was the last time I had more carbs than a TKD or CKD) so seeing 3-600 grams just seems like so much right now even though I know it’s not. It’s been a long ass time since I had higher amounts of carbs as part of my diet lol.

Anyway it seems like the method is working well, I plan to try it again in about a month. Was carb cycling what you used to get down to about 8% or did you go with a CKD (6 low, 1 high day)?

769

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
ajweins wrote:
Thought I would give you guys an update of my diet. I have slowly tapered up my carbs and calories and am able to start trying to gain mass again. I thought I would be at least at maintenance calories last week but I still lost some weight (2 lbs). So I am upping my cals to adjust. I am not quite as lean as I once was mainly due to some wedding anniversary binging but that is okay. Since increasing my food intake my workouts have been going great and strength is increasing rapidly. I am using the troponin nutrition counting method (meaning I don’t count green veggies, the fat in chicken, or the protein in oatmeal etc) and here is what I am liking right now.

Low Day- 300 pro, 100 carb, 70 fat
Med Day- 300 pro, 300 carb, 40 fat
High Day-240 pro, 600 carb, fats as low as possible

I am doing 2 high, 2 low, and 3 medium days a week. Usually my cals are around 3000 on low days, 3500 on medium days, and 4000 on high days. I never thought I would need this many calories but I have a pretty demanding summer job (construction) so pairing that with lifting 6x a week requires a lot of food I guess. Hopefully the scale will go up this week. I am currently at 195 lbs and estimating 10% BF.

good stuff man. I’m confused though, are you saying you’ve been continuing to lose weight this whole time but your less lean?

As for the breakdown of the days, damn I guess it’s just because I’ve been cutting for awhile, and low carb even longer (last june was the last time I had more carbs than a TKD or CKD) so seeing 3-600 grams just seems like so much right now even though I know it’s not. It’s been a long ass time since I had higher amounts of carbs as part of my diet lol.

Anyway it seems like the method is working well, I plan to try it again in about a month. Was carb cycling what you used to get down to about 8% or did you go with a CKD (6 low, 1 high day)?[/quote]

I kind of took a couple weeks off after I got down to 8%. I graduated college and went on a weekend anniversary/vacation with the wife and ate a ton. So this made me gain a lot of water, glycogen, and some fat. My strength has been through the roof ever since. After my diet break, I am starting up a lean mass gaining phase. I used Shelby’s macronutrient guidebook recommendations to set this up, and this is where I lost two pounds, so now I am using the upper ranges of his recommendations.

Also, I would be considered an “endo” as well. I was around 18-20% all my life. ,I have been usually on a low carb diet for the past 3 years to stay at around 12-15%. I always thought I did not handle carbs well. However, after dieting down I find myself handling carbs a lot better. Trust me, it seems crazy myself to eat the amount of carbs I do on a regular basis. I probably won’t be able to continue that once school starts since I will lose my physical labor job. But anyway, my carb sensitivity is a lot better once I leaned out.

I know Shelby doesn’t buy into the whole carb intolerant thing. People just eat way more than they think.

770

[quote]ajweins wrote:

Also, I would be considered an “endo” as well. I was around 18-20% all my life. ,I have been usually on a low carb diet for the past 3 years to stay at around 12-15%. I always thought I did not handle carbs well. However, after dieting down I find myself handling carbs a lot better. Trust me, it seems crazy myself to eat the amount of carbs I do on a regular basis. I probably won’t be able to continue that once school starts since I will lose my physical labor job. But anyway, my carb sensitivity is a lot better once I leaned out.

I know Shelby doesn’t buy into the whole carb intolerant thing. People just eat way more than they think. [/quote]

Are you still going to be carb cycling when you get back to school or just trying to eat healthy in general? Out of curiosity you said you graduated right, what are you going to be going back to school for?

It’s interesting that you were in that range of bodyfat for awhile too but got pretty damn lean, nice work. So was it more like a CKD (6 low, 1 refeed day) or carb cycling that you used to get from the 12-15% range to 8%?

771

I’m back on the wagon after 12 days of hell aka. Rapid Fat Loss. I’m up to 184 today after my refeed that lasted from Fri night to early this morning (late night apple pie, ice cream, and some crab/artichoke dip). So put on around 14 lbs of water/glycogen and likely some fat. After 14 weeks of dieting I didn’t feel any sort of guilt or psychological connection to the foods. I basically ate what I wanted.

So my version of carb cycling will be based on my physical needs. My calories won’t be as much of a concern as total protein and carbs. My low days will be off days and I will practice a PSMF type diet where I get between 1.5-2g/lb protein and limit both fat and carbs to nearly none. My 4-day split is as follows.

Sun-Push (Chest/Shoulders)
Mon-Pull (Back/Hams)
Wed-Legs (Quads/calves)
Thu-Arms/abs

I’m aiming for ~300g CHO on all workout days, centered around peri-WO. I like having a P+C meal around 2 hours pre-WO, 25g casein/whey and 50g Gatorade during my lifts, 25g Gatorade+creatine+glutamine post-WO, and then a big P+C meal to finish. So I’m going to have high days and PSMF days. It will be fun to experiment with. I also plan on having 1 cheat meal on Fri or Sat night. No refeeds for me any more, unless I decide to endure the RFL diet again.

What do you guys think?

772

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
ajweins wrote:

Also, I would be considered an “endo” as well. I was around 18-20% all my life. ,I have been usually on a low carb diet for the past 3 years to stay at around 12-15%. I always thought I did not handle carbs well. However, after dieting down I find myself handling carbs a lot better. Trust me, it seems crazy myself to eat the amount of carbs I do on a regular basis. I probably won’t be able to continue that once school starts since I will lose my physical labor job. But anyway, my carb sensitivity is a lot better once I leaned out.

I know Shelby doesn’t buy into the whole carb intolerant thing. People just eat way more than they think.

Are you still going to be carb cycling when you get back to school or just trying to eat healthy in general? Out of curiosity you said you graduated right, what are you going to be going back to school for?

It’s interesting that you were in that range of bodyfat for awhile too but got pretty damn lean, nice work. So was it more like a CKD (6 low, 1 refeed day) or carb cycling that you used to get from the 12-15% range to 8%?[/quote]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I did mainly use the CKD with one high carb low fat refeed day to get lean. If I ever try to diet down for a contest this will be the first approach I use as well. Now that I am trying to gain, however, I plan on continuing carb cycling indefinately as it just seems to make sense for me. I feel I will be able to maintain my leanness on this diet and hopefully put on a good 20-30 pounds of muscle in the next year.

Schoolwise, I just graduated from college and at the end of july I will be going for my doctorate in physical therapy.

773

[quote]ajweins wrote:

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I did mainly use the CKD with one high carb low fat refeed day to get lean. If I ever try to diet down for a contest this will be the first approach I use as well. Now that I am trying to gain, however, I plan on continuing carb cycling indefinately as it just seems to make sense for me. I feel I will be able to maintain my leanness on this diet and hopefully put on a good 20-30 pounds of muscle in the next year.
[/quote]
Cool, sounds like we have similar ideas. Like you I prefer the CKD approach for cutting fat (for now anyway, I know both methods can work) but when it comes time to start building more mass again I’m going to go for carb cycling and see how I do.

774

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
I’m back on the wagon after 12 days of hell aka. Rapid Fat Loss. I’m up to 184 today after my refeed that lasted from Fri night to early this morning (late night apple pie, ice cream, and some crab/artichoke dip). So put on around 14 lbs of water/glycogen and likely some fat. After 14 weeks of dieting I didn’t feel any sort of guilt or psychological connection to the foods. I basically ate what I wanted.

So my version of carb cycling will be based on my physical needs. My calories won’t be as much of a concern as total protein and carbs. My low days will be off days and I will practice a PSMF type diet where I get between 1.5-2g/lb protein and limit both fat and carbs to nearly none. My 4-day split is as follows.

Sun-Push (Chest/Shoulders)
Mon-Pull (Back/Hams)
Wed-Legs (Quads/calves)
Thu-Arms/abs

I’m aiming for ~300g CHO on all workout days, centered around peri-WO. I like having a P+C meal around 2 hours pre-WO, 25g casein/whey and 50g Gatorade during my lifts, 25g Gatorade+creatine+glutamine post-WO, and then a big P+C meal to finish. So I’m going to have high days and PSMF days. It will be fun to experiment with. I also plan on having 1 cheat meal on Fri or Sat night. No refeeds for me any more, unless I decide to endure the RFL diet again.

What do you guys think?[/quote]

Your workout split looks good. I can’t comment too much on the diet since I’ve never tried it. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of that type of nutrition.
You stated you have casein in your peri-WO shakes. Is that hydrosylate? If not, it’s a poor protein choice.

775

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Your workout split looks good. I can’t comment too much on the diet since I’ve never tried it. Personally, I’m not a huge fan of that type of nutrition.
You stated you have casein in your peri-WO shakes. Is that hydrosylate? If not, it’s a poor protein choice.[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback JB. I agree it’s not a very widely used nutrition scheme. Basically I’m still dieting and attempting to only fuel my body when necessary. On off days, I’d like to spare muscle while still burning fat naturally. Protein spares muscle better than any other macronutrient (I have experience with this phenomenon on Rapid Fat Loss/Velocity diets).

The para-workout shake is composed of isolate. I personally don’t see the miniscule % benefits of hydrosolate over isolate as an average athletic dude with a desk job. It’s not worth the extra $5 per pound and your body will use free floating amino acids (from food) for energy over muscle all of the time.

To be honest, there isn’t a “poor protein choice” besides Soy for athletes.

776

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Thanks for the feedback JB. I agree it’s not a very widely used nutrition scheme. Basically I’m still dieting and attempting to only fuel my body when necessary. On off days, I’d like to spare muscle while still burning fat naturally. Protein spares muscle better than any other macronutrient (I have experience with this phenomenon on Rapid Fat Loss/Velocity diets).

The para-workout shake is composed of isolate. I personally don’t see the miniscule % benefits of hydrosolate over isolate as an average athletic dude with a desk job. It’s not worth the extra $5 per pound and your body will use free floating amino acids (from food) for energy over muscle all of the time.

To be honest, there isn’t a “poor protein choice” besides Soy for athletes.[/quote]

I’ll need to take your word on the protein for protein sparing part. I’ve certainly felt I’ve retained mass while on the GSD - where the low calorie and 50% fat macronutrient split protocol means protein intake is lower than usual for recreational bodybuilders (i.e. for me, less than 1g per lb of bodyweight).

Regarding isolate, I agree it’s easy to get hung up on the advice of the T-Nation gurus - who, it can be argued, have Biotest products to endorse. However, the principal that a fast-acting protein is best peri-WO is relatively sound. Therefore, if you’re putting in the sweat and complying with the diet, and can afford it, then I think hydrosylate is a sound investment. I have also replaced my BCAA/creatine meal replacements twice per day with whey hydrosylate to test out this latest hyperaminoacidemia protocol, so it’s serving a dual purpose for me.

777

Hey Guys,

Great thread here! I’ve been on keto for almost 16 weeks and have been doing a refeed on sundays. I’m thinking of moving to a carb cycle here in a few weeks and wanted some opinions - some knowledgeable dudes on here! I think i’m some where in reading page 15…

Here’s some info:
Endomorphic
200 lbs @~12-13%
6’0

Here’s what I was thinking for the cycle:
Sunday - Carb up/ Refeed - Pro 300g, Lots of carbs, minimal fats.
Mon - 300g P/125g C/ 90g F
Tue - 300g P/75g C/ 90g F
Wed - 300g P/50g C/ 90g F
Thurs - Repeat Mon
Fri - Repeat Tue
Sat- Repeat Wed

Carbs eaten only with breakfast and PWO. Will watch scale and mirror for two weeks and will adjust carbs up/down depending on severity of rebound, weight gain, and fat gain (if any).

778

interesting interview with Dave Tate where he talks about his experience with carb cycling vs a CKD type method www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1539/184/

it’s interesting how some people are so for carb cycling while others really prefer 6 days low carbs with 1 giant refeed, and I’ve seen both work great for a lot of people

779

[quote]TheDarkHalf wrote:
Hey Guys,

Great thread here! I’ve been on keto for almost 16 weeks and have been doing a refeed on sundays. I’m thinking of moving to a carb cycle here in a few weeks and wanted some opinions - some knowledgeable dudes on here! I think i’m some where in reading page 15…

Here’s some info:
Endomorphic
200 lbs @~12-13%
6’0

Here’s what I was thinking for the cycle:
Sunday - Carb up/ Refeed - Pro 300g, Lots of carbs, minimal fats.
Mon - 300g P/125g C/ 90g F
Tue - 300g P/75g C/ 90g F
Wed - 300g P/50g C/ 90g F
Thurs - Repeat Mon
Fri - Repeat Tue
Sat- Repeat Wed

Carbs eaten only with breakfast and PWO. Will watch scale and mirror for two weeks and will adjust carbs up/down depending on severity of rebound, weight gain, and fat gain (if any).
[/quote]

I’m assuming your still trying to lose fat? If you truly have been dieting for 16 weeks and have hit a plateau you might want to take a diet break for a week or two (eat at maintenance). Fats look a little high on the diet you laid out.

780

[quote]jlats wrote:
I’m assuming your still trying to lose fat? If you truly have been dieting for 16 weeks and have hit a plateau you might want to take a diet break for a week or two (eat at maintenance). Fats look a little high on the diet you laid out.[/quote]

Yep. Still trying to lose fat. I know the fat looks high - however my cals for those days are as follows

mon:2510
tue:2310
wed:2210

I just feel since I gain fat easily i’d like to start with less carbs. Really think this needs adjusting? Maintenance is somewhere between 3000-3200. Any recommendations are welcomed.