Carbs Cycling Experience

[system]

JamesBrawn would you recommend the GSD to someone else? I’m still at about 15% body fat but am considering taking a week off from dieting soon and then going at it even more aggressively with the GSD

also is there a recommended training program for it?

[esk221]

I think as far as extreme fat loss plans go, the GSD and Lyle McDonald’s Rapid Fat Loss are about equal. I think it just depends, either way you’re going to be eating very, but you have to decide what do you like more: A balance between protein and fat or a whole bunch of protein?

As for training, any low frequency, low volume, heavy load program would work.

[Needmassquick]

[quote]esk221 wrote:
I think as far as extreme fat loss plans go, the GSD and Lyle McDonald’s Rapid Fat Loss are about equal. I think it just depends, either way you’re going to be eating very, but you have to decide what do you like more: A balance between protein and fat or a whole bunch of protein?

As for training, any low frequency, low volume, heavy load program would work. [/quote]

I was wondering a similar thing as pumped. The training method you said is basically the training I’ve been doing

You said either protein and far or really high protein. Since the GSD is high in both are you saying lyle mcdonalds diet is basically just really high protein and not high fat?

[esk221]

The GSD isn’t high in either. I’d classify it as a moderate fat/moderate protein. Search for a thread by Bricknyce called something like “Rapid Fat Loss vs V-Diet”.

[Sagat]

This is an interesting read about carb cycling and some other stuff:

www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20966

Lose fat, gain muscle

This article is NOT finished, but something I threw together this weekend as I just opened the recomp forum and I wanted something to give people the general idea about what recomp diets are about. I will add to it and refine it in the days to come.

This article is aimed at dispelling some of the myths that â??it is impossible to lose fat and gain muscleâ??. Nothing could be further from the truth, it can easily be done. Butâ?¦â?¦doing so requires context to be taken into account as well as content. Most people have no idea what a recomposition diet consists of and confuse it with a typical aggressive cutting diet. I will go over some of the concepts of a recomp diet as well as some of the ways people take things out of context and attempt to apply them to a â??lose fat, gain muscle dietâ?? and fail miserably.

The first and most often made mistake is someone deciding they are going to shed some unwanted bodyfat and do a straight â??cutâ?? style diet. Overall calories are low and stay that way, carbs are usually drastically restricted, and cardio is pushed hard. The body is always in a deprived state and in many cases strength goes down the tubes as well as muscle mass. The dieter doing an aggressive cut is in best case circumstances not losing too much muscle. They get done, and it is obviously apparent that they sure as hell didnâ??t build any muscle while dietingâ??duh. Message hereâ??a cut diet is NOT a recomposition diet.

Most trainees base their diet results in the short term on what the scale says. If they are â??massingâ?? (I never use the word â??bulkâ?? as it is usually interchangeable with â??get fatâ??) they want to see the scale going up â??Xâ?? amount each week. When â??cuttingâ?? they want to see the scale going down â??Xâ?? amount each week. As long as the scale conforms to their expectations they are pleased (even if the wrong things are happening to their bodies). On a recomp diet, the scale changes can be extremely subtle and thus the trainee â??assumesâ?? their diet is not working, and they switch to something else that gives them instant gratification with the scale swings. I have had training clients start at 200 lbs and end at 200 lbs 6 months later looking like a completely different person. But if the barometer of success was the scale, it was a total failure.

Most do not understand that a recomp diet is NOT based on losing fat and gaining muscle during a 24 hour period (although that is possible) but over the course of the weeks and months. In other words, the goal is not to lose a certain percentage of fat and gain a certain percentage of muscle over the course of a day, but over the course of weeks and months. Some days you will drop fat, other days you will accrue mass. If this is done correctly and in the right ratio over the long term the net result is less fat and more muscle. There is no magic about this, just correct planning and precision.

Most people believe erroneously that bodyfat is only oxidixed under extreme circumstances and that the body must literally be forced to burn fat. Again, nothing could be further from the truth and the body is continually using fat as fuel for low intensity workload and metabolic function. The heart primarily uses FFAâ??s as itâ??s fuel source. That is an example of how fundamental stored and consumed fats are to daily fat usage. When the average person hears that when just sitting in a chair that 55-75% of the bodies basal metabolic needs are met by FFAâ??s (free fatty acids) they usually respond along the lines of â??well then how come Iâ??m not skinnyâ??. It is as simple as the analogy that if your car has ¾â??s of a tank of gasoline and you drive to town, and then put in enough gas at the station for the miles driven you will always be right at ¾ of a tank. In other words whatever you burned today, you also just stored from the meals consumed unless under maintenance calories.

The more advanced a trainee is, the more difficult a recomp type diet will be in most cases. Recomposition diets in my opinion are best used by those past the very beginner stage, to advanced intermediate level lifter. Very advanced guys that have the goal of maximal muscle mass at all costs do best just lean massing and letting as little fat come on as possible until it comes time to â??tighten upâ?? either for a competition, or to just look better naked. IF you have the patience, you can still do extremely well at the advanced level by careful carb cycling with the emphasis on mass over fat loss.

Recomps are NOT a diet suitable to trainees that are not/cannot be precise, nor to people that simply have no idea what they are doing. Without good instruction, and precision, most people are better off lean massing then cutting.

Recomp diets above all, are not for those that are impatientâ??that disqualifies most people from them being a practical diet protocol. Not because they will be ineffective, but because people want the instant gratification of seeing the scale â??do somethingâ??.

OK, so now you have heard the recomposition diets can work to slowly drop bodyfat levels while accruing muscle mass. But how are they constructed? Big question with a LOT of different answers. A recomp diet has one main requirement (assuming weight training to stimulate muscle mass is a given). And that requirement is that some days, or some portions of the day are under maintenance or sufficient cardio work is being done to put on in a calorie deficit, and some days, or parts of the day are over maintenance allowing mass accrual. Here are some of the ones that I am most familiar with and use with training clients.

ABC Diet
Many of the older people will remember this diet from the old â??Muscle Media 2000â??. It sounded like a gimmick at the time, but I tried it anyway and it works! I still use it now and again with clients that have metabolisms that â??shut downâ?? fast in response to any long term drop in caloric levels. The premise is extremely simple. One week (for a 7 day period) the trainee will eat at above maintenance levels and will consume adequate carbs, proteins, and fats. The diet is not restrictive, but does require precision to make sure the trainee is laying down very little fat. This is a typical lean mass diet. The following week, for a period of 7 days, the trainee will eat a low carb, high protein, high fat diet (almost keto, and can be keto if preferred). During this week the trainee will do cardio. Calories are set a bit below maintenance, but not so low that strength gains are effected. During this 7 day period the trainee will drop some bodyfat, and if the numbers are laid out correctly, they will drop more fat than was accrued during the higher calorie, higher carb week. Do this for a few months with the numbers dialed correctly and you end up with more muscle, less fat, and not too much diet deprivation feelings. It works!

Carb Cycling
This is a favorite of many strength and conditioning coaches. It is very easy to do from a psychological standpoint simply because you only have a few days a week that are difficult to do, and you have some very comfortable days also. The principle is the same. Some days you will be doing low carbs, low calories, some days medium carbs/calories, and others high carbs calories. Again if the numbers are put together correctly the end result is that overall you slowly lose bodyfat while gaining muscle. Bodyfat is lost on the low carb, calorie days, muscle mass accrued on the high calorie carb days, and the end result is more mass, less fat. Here is an example of carb cycling aimed at bodyfat losses:
Day one: high carb day, can be very high for many lifters, This day is very anabolic
Day two: low carb day, low calories, also
Day three: low carb, medium calories
Day four: medium carb day, above maintenance calories
Day five: low carb, medium calories
Day six: medium carb day, above maintenance calories
Day seven : low carb, low calories.\

The downside of carb cycling diets is that for the â??averageâ?? trainee, putting one together for theirselves and following it is too complex. But for those willing to put in the time to figure it out, or hire a trainer that knows how to implement this type of diet, this type of diet can be tailored to do anything you want by how you shift the numbers. From maximal mass accrual and a bit of bodyfat coming along for the ride, or to get you extremely lean while slowly adding mass. For contest prep, I like keto diets to get one on the low end of single digits, but this type of diet can do it as well.

Keto diets with BIG refeeds
Many of you know that Dan Duchaine was the person that got keto diets started in the bodybuilding community in a big way with his book â??Body Opusâ??. What many of you do not realize is that Danâ??s vision of Body Opus keto diets was not just a diet to get someone lean. It was meant to be a diet used year round to get you to a very low percentage bodyfat number WHILE accruing muscle mass. Now in my opinions it had some major failings, the biggest was the convoluted reefed schedule that required you to set your alarm clock and get up every 3 hours to pound some protein and carbs two days out of the week. And itâ??s complexity is what held it back Mauro Dipasqualeâ??s â??Anabolic Dietâ?? had the same goal as Danâ??s diet, that being to drop bodyfat while adding mass. The premise here is simple and the same basic concepts as in the above examples. In both Body Opus and the Anabolic diet you are to go 5 days with no carbs and below maintenance caloric levels. Then (especially in Body Opus) you are to do an extreme reefed for two days. These two days result in a very big growth spurt if the training leading up to the reefed stimulated the need for hypertrophy. The concepts are valid and work, and in my opinion can be improved on a bit. If your goal is more slanted towards mass accrual, you can do 4 days low cals/carbs, then a 3 day reefed. You will burn bodyfat during the low carb/calorie days and if your numbers are dialed, you will accrue muscle mass without laying down more bodyfat than was burned during the depletion period.

Timed Carb Diets
This is the method I use for most training clients on a recomp simply because it is very simple to do for the client while still being effective. The premise is based on the fact that carbs are most needed and the body is most anabolic right after the workout. So carbs are consumed post workout only, and on weekend reefed days. There are three types of days with this diet:
Training day: Carbs consumed for two meals after the workout only. Calories are slightly below mainetenece, but that can vary dependent of the trainee and goals.
Non-training day: no carbs, low calories.
Refeed days: Usually two days, sometimes only one dependent on the goals. These are usually done on the weekends, which make this diet socially friendly. Calories and carbs are above maintenance, but again, this may vary dependent on the trainee and goals. For more mass emphasis, these can be pretty big refeeds. If fat loss is the goal, and mass accrual at a slower rate, less calories and carbs are used. This type of diet is simple and effective for most lifters.

There are a LOT of variations on these themes and a plethora of other ways to do recomp diets so please do not take this as being even a remotely complete list of recomp type diets.

OK, now that I have laid out an overview of some of the misconceptions and how these diets what are they good for?

First and foremost in my opinion they are awesome for the lifter that wants to look as good as possible year round and not go through the endless â??bulking and cuttingâ?? phases most people seem to spend their time doing. They are also great for the trainee that has fat loss resistant metabolisms. Many guys and girls that diet find that almost any caloric deficit level imposed on their bodies are immediately countered by the body lowing metabolic rate and putting additional fat loss at a stalemate. Many of the recomp diets are also perfect for the dieter that is not well disciplined as extreme measures are not called for and long periods of low carbs/calories are not needed. In other words, you only need go a short period of time before you can eat some of the foods you enjoy (within reason) and deprivation is not as severe as â??cutâ?? type diets.

Iron Addict

[system]

I’m pretty sure I posted that a few pages back. Might have been in the AD 2 thread but I think it was here

[bkmacky9288]

Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.

[AceQHounddog]

[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.[/quote]

That’s how I’ve been doing my refeeds. With a big family, it seems every 10 to 14 days or so there is some sort of gathering or event, and I just save my big refeeds for those days. It’s working well, and I’ve dropped over 20 lbs since starting carb cycling on March 1st.

[JamesBrawn007]

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JamesBrawn would you recommend the GSD to someone else? I’m still at about 15% body fat but am considering taking a week off from dieting soon and then going at it even more aggressively with the GSD

also is there a recommended training program for it?

[/quote]

I would certainly recommend it. I was at the 16% BF mark when I started (Tanita scales estimate). I am unsure what I am now in terms of bodyfat but I do know I’ve lost 1 and 3/4ins from my waist after 28 days. My abs are now much more visable. My bicep is down by 1/8th ins but given I was holding water as a result of a higher carb intake this is not a surprise. Further, my strength is still at pre-GSD levels so I do not believe I’m losing mass.

What I’ve found about the diet is that it has been relatively easy to follow. For example, I aim for 3 P+F meals per day of 450-500kcals (2 of which you would have at home). The other meal is at work supplemented by 5g BCAAs/2.5g creatine twice daily. A P+F shake before bed seals the day and takes me to 1800-2000 kcals. Macronutrient split works out at 50-55% fat; 35% protein; remainder carbs from green veg, etc. I can never say I’ve been hungry on this despite eating 1000-1500kcals less than what I was pre-GSD. Workout nutrition is usually BCAAs before, leucine/whey during and after.

In terms of training, I’m doing soemthing very similar to the Refined Physique Transfomation programme by Thibs. However, I’m doing full-body sessions instead of splits. So far this works out at a strength-type session using 5x5 and antagonistic supersets every 5 days. In between times I’m doing 1-2 lactate sessions, as well as daily cardio (at the moment 40-60mins walking).

Due to a training lay-off for illness/personal reasons for 7 days between Day 21 and 28, I only had one cheat meal on Day 28 (which was my fortnightly carb day). I can only estimate the carb intake here was around 250g. Yet, the following day I had my first training session back after the lay-off and slightly bettered my previous.

I guess I’m saying for these reasons it’s highly recommended.

[phatkins187]

[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.[/quote]

Hormone up-regulation, mostly. Muscle mass is a lot easier to build with CHO, too. CHO are most easily converted to glucose for energy use by muscles and your brain. You could also just read some reputable research online about them instead of asking the masses.

[esk221]

I overdid it yesterday. :[

My poor toilet.

[phatkins187]

[quote]esk221 wrote:
I overdid it yesterday. :[

My poor toilet.[/quote]

Enlighten us. Not about the aftermath…rather what did you eat?

[esk221]

An entire box of Chocolate Mini Wheats, 9 sushi rolls, huge bowl of pasta w/ calamari & marinara, chicken burrito w/ rice, fat free ice cream with fat free brownies on top. I think it was the ice cream.

[phatkins187]

[quote]esk221 wrote:
An entire box of Chocolate Mini Wheats, 9 sushi rolls, huge bowl of pasta w/ calamari & marinara, chicken burrito w/ rice, fat free ice cream with fat free brownies on top. I think it was the ice cream.[/quote]

Agreed…even if you’re not lactose intolerant the gas-o-meter will be through the roof with that much ice cream. I had a 1/2 carton Thursday and made MYSELF gag.

Good work homeslice!

[bkmacky9288]

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
bkmacky9288 wrote:
Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.

Hormone up-regulation, mostly. Muscle mass is a lot easier to build with CHO, too. CHO are most easily converted to glucose for energy use by muscles and your brain. You could also just read some reputable research online about them instead of asking the masses.[/quote]

Bite me. Everything people ask in these forums can be found elsewhere. Besides I was being mildy sarcastic because I know besides me many have trouble with carbs because once they start the fun dont stop…

[phatkins187]

[quote]bkmacky9288 wrote:
phatkins187 wrote:
bkmacky9288 wrote:
Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.

Hormone up-regulation, mostly. Muscle mass is a lot easier to build with CHO, too. CHO are most easily converted to glucose for energy use by muscles and your brain. You could also just read some reputable research online about them instead of asking the masses.

Bite me. Everything people ask in these forums can be found elsewhere. Besides I was being mildy sarcastic because I know besides me many have trouble with carbs because once they start the fun dont stop…[/quote]

Glad I’m dealing with a 12 year old! You are now trying to combine physiological and psychological impacts of carbohydrates on the body. Sounds like a bigger issue here and I’ll leave this one to Dr. Phil or Oprah!

[system]

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
JamesBrawn would you recommend the GSD to someone else? I’m still at about 15% body fat but am considering taking a week off from dieting soon and then going at it even more aggressively with the GSD

also is there a recommended training program for it?

I would certainly recommend it. I was at the 16% BF mark when I started (Tanita scales estimate). I am unsure what I am now in terms of bodyfat but I do know I’ve lost 1 and 3/4ins from my waist after 28 days. My abs are now much more visable. My bicep is down by 1/8th ins but given I was holding water as a result of a higher carb intake this is not a surprise. Further, my strength is still at pre-GSD levels so I do not believe I’m losing mass.

What I’ve found about the diet is that it has been relatively easy to follow. For example, I aim for 3 P+F meals per day of 450-500kcals (2 of which you would have at home). The other meal is at work supplemented by 5g BCAAs/2.5g creatine twice daily. A P+F shake before bed seals the day and takes me to 1800-2000 kcals. Macronutrient split works out at 50-55% fat; 35% protein; remainder carbs from green veg, etc. I can never say I’ve been hungry on this despite eating 1000-1500kcals less than what I was pre-GSD. Workout nutrition is usually BCAAs before, leucine/whey during and after.

In terms of training, I’m doing soemthing very similar to the Refined Physique Transfomation programme by Thibs. However, I’m doing full-body sessions instead of splits. So far this works out at a strength-type session using 5x5 and antagonistic supersets every 5 days. In between times I’m doing 1-2 lactate sessions, as well as daily cardio (at the moment 40-60mins walking).

Due to a training lay-off for illness/personal reasons for 7 days between Day 21 and 28, I only had one cheat meal on Day 28 (which was my fortnightly carb day). I can only estimate the carb intake here was around 250g. Yet, the following day I had my first training session back after the lay-off and slightly bettered my previous.

I guess I’m saying for these reasons it’s highly recommended.

[/quote]

Hm well I don’t know what the hell is going on with me but the fat is just not coming off so after I take a week off from dieting to try and “restart” my metabolism I’m going to try this.

So basically you were doing
-full body sessions for strength (3?)
-1-2 lactate days
-walking for 40-60 min?

All the cardio with low carbs make me worry about muscle loss. I’ve been gaining strength my whole cut but my arms and especially calves are smaller! very annoying…

[bkmacky9288]

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
bkmacky9288 wrote:
phatkins187 wrote:
bkmacky9288 wrote:
Can some enlighten me as to why we need carbs? I’ve read theyre unessential a few times and I just feel a lot better without em. I’d rather just wait for a special occasion to arise to ingest carbs.

Hormone up-regulation, mostly. Muscle mass is a lot easier to build with CHO, too. CHO are most easily converted to glucose for energy use by muscles and your brain. You could also just read some reputable research online about them instead of asking the masses.

Bite me. Everything people ask in these forums can be found elsewhere. Besides I was being mildy sarcastic because I know besides me many have trouble with carbs because once they start the fun dont stop…

Glad I’m dealing with a 12 year old! You are now trying to combine physiological and psychological impacts of carbohydrates on the body. Sounds like a bigger issue here and I’ll leave this one to Dr. Phil or Oprah![/quote]

HAHA didnt really mean any offense but your response made me laugh. Nah Im just bitchin cuz of how shitty full on carb loads make me look and feel.

[AceQHounddog]

I’m loading on Wednesday. I can’t wait. I’m going to the Terminator Salvation sneak preview and getting a large bucket o’ popcorn.

[JamesBrawn007]

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
JamesBrawn007 wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
JamesBrawn would you recommend the GSD to someone else? I’m still at about 15% body fat but am considering taking a week off from dieting soon and then going at it even more aggressively with the GSD

also is there a recommended training program for it?

I would certainly recommend it. I was at the 16% BF mark when I started (Tanita scales estimate). I am unsure what I am now in terms of bodyfat but I do know I’ve lost 1 and 3/4ins from my waist after 28 days. My abs are now much more visable. My bicep is down by 1/8th ins but given I was holding water as a result of a higher carb intake this is not a surprise. Further, my strength is still at pre-GSD levels so I do not believe I’m losing mass.

What I’ve found about the diet is that it has been relatively easy to follow. For example, I aim for 3 P+F meals per day of 450-500kcals (2 of which you would have at home). The other meal is at work supplemented by 5g BCAAs/2.5g creatine twice daily. A P+F shake before bed seals the day and takes me to 1800-2000 kcals. Macronutrient split works out at 50-55% fat; 35% protein; remainder carbs from green veg, etc. I can never say I’ve been hungry on this despite eating 1000-1500kcals less than what I was pre-GSD. Workout nutrition is usually BCAAs before, leucine/whey during and after.

In terms of training, I’m doing soemthing very similar to the Refined Physique Transfomation programme by Thibs. However, I’m doing full-body sessions instead of splits. So far this works out at a strength-type session using 5x5 and antagonistic supersets every 5 days. In between times I’m doing 1-2 lactate sessions, as well as daily cardio (at the moment 40-60mins walking).

Due to a training lay-off for illness/personal reasons for 7 days between Day 21 and 28, I only had one cheat meal on Day 28 (which was my fortnightly carb day). I can only estimate the carb intake here was around 250g. Yet, the following day I had my first training session back after the lay-off and slightly bettered my previous.

I guess I’m saying for these reasons it’s highly recommended.

Hm well I don’t know what the hell is going on with me but the fat is just not coming off so after I take a week off from dieting to try and “restart” my metabolism I’m going to try this.

So basically you were doing
-full body sessions for strength (3?)
-1-2 lactate days
-walking for 40-60 min?

All the cardio with low carbs make me worry about muscle loss. I’ve been gaining strength my whole cut but my arms and especially calves are smaller! very annoying…[/quote]

In terms of training, Berardi recommends any type of strength session lasting 1.5 - 2 hours performed 4-5 times per week, with 15mins low intensity cardio after the weights. Personally, I cannot envisage such a long workout. So, borrowing from Thibs’ articles I have adopted his training protocols for low-carb dieters. Thibs advocates splits a la Poliquin but I have a slight lower back issue at the moment so my leg volume has been cut enabling me to accommodate this on one whole body session. As the back progresses I will look to split the lower body into a separate session. In summary a week looks like:

Sunday - strength session; whole body (50-60mins)
Monday - walk (60mins)
Tuesday - walk (45-60mins)
Wednesday - lactate (30mins); followed by 15 mins cardio
Thursday - as Tuesday
Friday - as Sunday
Saturday - walk (or off)

The strength session looks like this:
A1) Bench Press 5 reps
A2) Fly 6-8 reps
B1) Pull-up 5 reps
B2) One-hand DB Row 8-10 reps
This is performed A1, no rest, A2. Then take 2 mins rest then B1, no rest, B2. Rest 2 mins then back to A, etc, for 5 supersets.
C) Bulgarian split squats 3x8-10 in normal straight set fashion

The lactate session looks like this:

1. Bulgarian split squat (12 reps)
2. Push up (15 reps)
3. High pull (12 reps)
4. Step up (15 reps)
5. Lying DB row (12 reps)
   This is performed circuit style 5 times with no rest between exercises and taking 1.5mins rest between circuits.

During the first 2-3 weeks I was doing more lactate sessions because I had the energy for it. However, I’m now at the stage where I’m sensing that would probably be counter-productive and it’s best to scale back on them due to the continued negative calorie/carb balance. 8 hours uninterrupted sleep per night is also a must.

Regarding your own situation, if you have been dieting for a while already this diet may hit you harder to start with. So the idea of a diet lay-off for 2 weeks might be a better suggestion? As stated earlier, I have suffered no strength deficeit to date.
It is quite an unsociable diet because there is only scope to let your hair down every 14 days. However, I think it was Dave Tate who said of GSD ‘give it 28 days, just 28 days…’ I have done so and feel pretty good that I’ve gotten here. I’ve also been impressed enough to stay on it seeking more progress.

JB