[quote]elusive wrote:
Sagat wrote:
AceQHounddog wrote:
What is the general consensus of Joel Marion’s Cheat Your Way Thin diet? It seems pretty similar to what is being discussed, except his “Cheat” days don’t seem to limit fat.
With all this talk about refeeds i wondered about that too.
Cheat to lose is the same concept. Fat isn’t directly hurting you on a refeed, it just may make you fuller. This may keep you from eating more carbs, because you’re stuffed. Carbs are the main culprits for kick starting the metabolism again.
Another diet that uses refeeds is Scott Abel’s Cycle Diet. Check it out. He has people deplete, then take a cheat day (usually Sunday). Eat what ever you’d like, fats/carbs what ever. He also has his people do a cheat meal on Wednesday night. They still lose fat.
Point of the story is, people can get away with much more “cheating” (Wednesday night and entire day on Sunday for example) and STILL lose fat. I can attest to this. I’ve lost fat cheating 3 days a week. Most of the week I’m still burning that adipose tissue baby! [/quote]
If i´m not mistaken Joel Marion said in his thread in locker room that he found that some people respond better to high fat and carb refeeds while others must keep fat low (like most here are doing) for best results.
By the way, elusive, do you use this deplete/refeed stuff only for cutting or for gaining(while staying lean) too? I ask because you were already ripped in the pics posted in the beggining of the thread so i imagine you arent still cutting by now…
[quote]Sagat wrote:
elusive wrote:
Sagat wrote:
AceQHounddog wrote:
What is the general consensus of Joel Marion’s Cheat Your Way Thin diet? It seems pretty similar to what is being discussed, except his “Cheat” days don’t seem to limit fat.
With all this talk about refeeds i wondered about that too.
Cheat to lose is the same concept. Fat isn’t directly hurting you on a refeed, it just may make you fuller. This may keep you from eating more carbs, because you’re stuffed. Carbs are the main culprits for kick starting the metabolism again.
Another diet that uses refeeds is Scott Abel’s Cycle Diet. Check it out. He has people deplete, then take a cheat day (usually Sunday). Eat what ever you’d like, fats/carbs what ever. He also has his people do a cheat meal on Wednesday night. They still lose fat.
Point of the story is, people can get away with much more “cheating” (Wednesday night and entire day on Sunday for example) and STILL lose fat. I can attest to this. I’ve lost fat cheating 3 days a week. Most of the week I’m still burning that adipose tissue baby!
If i�´m not mistaken Joel Marion said in his thread in locker room that he found that some people respond better to high fat and carb refeeds while others must keep fat low (like most here are doing) for best results.
By the way, elusive, do you use this deplete/refeed stuff only for cutting or for gaining(while staying lean) too? I ask because you were already ripped in the pics posted in the beggining of the thread so i imagine you arent still cutting by now…[/quote]
I’ve never used refeeds for bulking. Just cutting.
What is a type 3,2 and 1?? ok i missed something on my first read!!
Also and its one thing that i found different in a few articles on the web, some have zero carbs/day, and other have about 0.5g/bodyweight/day.
Also if you Shelby stuff(q/a) on elitefts he doesnt believe in zero carbs per day.
The type I, II, and III days are how you split up your macros. First week is 3 days of type I and II, just one day of type III…so only one day of moderate carbs.
The type I and II days aren’t “zero” because there are traces of carbs in just about everything we eat (eggs, protein powders, veggies, etc). I keep them around 30-50 on the type I and II days.
I’ve been logging everything I eat and I started on Apr. 1 so if you want to see how it breaks down you can look at my Fit Day log:
Since I just came off the Velocity diet I’m going to have a type III day on Sunday (my heaviest weights day). So it’s 1 meal of pro/carbs and two shakes with pro/carbs.
Are you currently on a Shelby carb cycling program? Doesn’t he advocate high first, then transition slowly to very low?[/quote]
Thanks for the log! Good way to see what it really looks like.
Since I just came off the Velocity diet I’m going to have a type III day on Sunday (my heaviest weights day). So it’s 1 meal of pro/carbs and two shakes with pro/carbs.
Are you currently on a Shelby carb cycling program? Doesn’t he advocate high first, then transition slowly to very low?
Thanks for the log! Good way to see what it really looks like.
[/quote]
No problem. It’s really for my own benefit. I find that the more meticulous I am when it comes to diet (which consists of 95% of body recomposition), the easier it is to make changes when fat loss/lean muscle gain stalls.
For anyone who wants to get serious about their diet, the first thing you should do is keep a food diary. Protein and total calories mater the most, IMO. Get those two down pat before you try balancing the fat and cho.
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean. [/quote]
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean. [/quote]
I’ve never been traditionally all that carb tolerant, but I’m giving it a shot. I like skip’s notion of keeping fat and protein pretty constant every day and only really changing the carbs based on energy needs.
So I have been trying to taper out of my diet this week. I increased cals by 400 and dropped all cardio (I was doing 5 hours a week). However, my weight is dropping like crazy. My strength is up. For some reason I am having the best fat loss I have ever had right now. Anyone want to take a stab at why? I really don’t know. From a calories in vs. calories out standpoint this should not be happening.
[quote]ajweins wrote:
So I have been trying to taper out of my diet this week. I increased cals by 400 and dropped all cardio (I was doing 5 hours a week). However, my weight is dropping like crazy. My strength is up. For some reason I am having the best fat loss I have ever had right now. Anyone want to take a stab at why? I really don’t know. From a calories in vs. calories out standpoint this should not be happening. [/quote]
You were probably overtraining before. Ever since I lowered my cardio and training volume, fat has been falling off of me.
Giving your muscles time to grow properly by cutting out the cardio and giving them that extra bit of fuel, but not too much? Might have hit the sweetspot!
I remember reading a CT article about when he went into hospital and could only eat MD bars and shakes and came out of hospital heavier and leaner than when he went in.
Has anyone had a bad experience with caffeine and related fat burners?
I went into meltdown on Monday and it’s now elicited the complete opposite effects, e.g. depressed, no appetite or desire to train, constantly sleepy, bouts of palpitations, dry mouth. I’m slowly getting better but still a bit to go I think.
This followed some supplementation with HRH Extreme and Thermobol, to the prescribed level. However, I did have a few cups of strong coffee daily the previous weekend and suffered some sleep deprevation due to work commitments. Fucking nightmare. Any feedback appreciated.
[quote]ajweins wrote:
So I have been trying to taper out of my diet this week. I increased cals by 400 and dropped all cardio (I was doing 5 hours a week). However, my weight is dropping like crazy. My strength is up. For some reason I am having the best fat loss I have ever had right now. Anyone want to take a stab at why? I really don’t know. From a calories in vs. calories out standpoint this should not be happening. [/quote]
I doubt supercompensation has anything to do with why your weight is falling. 400 cal isn’t enough to really “supercomensate” your muscles with glycogen anyways unless you’ve cut out all of the protein and fat. I assume you’ve only upped the calories to ~2,000-2,200 after the GSD so the maximum amount of CHO you’re ingesting with 1g/lb PRO would be ~3-400g. That’s a modest amount of carbs for a bodybuilder and nowhere near refeed status.
I agree with esk that you might not have been efficiently using your ingested calories and your metabolism severely hurt (thus decreasing leptin and thyroid).
Do you look leaner in the mirror? Are you drinking enough water? One thing’s for sure…you’re a lucky bastard if what you say is true
[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:
Has anyone had a bad experience with caffeine and related fat burners?
I went into meltdown on Monday and it’s now elicited the complete opposite effects, e.g. depressed, no appetite or desire to train, constantly sleepy, bouts of palpitations, dry mouth. I’m slowly getting better but still a bit to go I think.
This followed some supplementation with HRH Extreme and Thermobol, to the prescribed level. However, I did have a few cups of strong coffee daily the previous weekend and suffered some sleep deprevation due to work commitments. Fucking nightmare. Any feedback appreciated. [/quote]
Scale back the HRX to 1 pill twice a day. It can help to take them with food too. You’re getting a ton of stimulants and it sounds like your CNS just can’t handle it. Be smart and curtail them bro.
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
ajweins wrote:
So I have been trying to taper out of my diet this week. I increased cals by 400 and dropped all cardio (I was doing 5 hours a week). However, my weight is dropping like crazy. My strength is up. For some reason I am having the best fat loss I have ever had right now. Anyone want to take a stab at why? I really don’t know. From a calories in vs. calories out standpoint this should not be happening.
I doubt supercompensation has anything to do with why your weight is falling. 400 cal isn’t enough to really “supercomensate” your muscles with glycogen anyways unless you’ve cut out all of the protein and fat. I assume you’ve only upped the calories to ~2,000-2,200 after the GSD so the maximum amount of CHO you’re ingesting with 1g/lb PRO would be ~3-400g. That’s a modest amount of carbs for a bodybuilder and nowhere near refeed status.
I agree with esk that you might not have been efficiently using your ingested calories and your metabolism severely hurt (thus decreasing leptin and thyroid).
Do you look leaner in the mirror? Are you drinking enough water? One thing’s for sure…you’re a lucky bastard if what you say is true
[/quote]
I do feel very lucky. My water intake has not changed and my calorie intake is only at 2400. So I still am probably in a deficit. I am guessing esk was right on the overtraining thing too. I have never experienced that before so its good to know where my recovery threshold is.
[quote]elusive wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean.
try it out. you’d be surprised.[/quote]
Maybe, I used to be fat so I doubt it. According to caliper results I actually had really good results when following CT’s Carb Cycling Codex with a fairly high volume routine (NROL) and that has carbs between 140 and 320g of carbs but that was only for 6 weeks and I kept changing/increasing calories so it’s hard to be sure. Also, I made comments in my log I have that I looked a lot softer/worse but that could have just been from the increased carbs and calories.
[quote]esk221 wrote:
ajweins wrote:
So I have been trying to taper out of my diet this week. I increased cals by 400 and dropped all cardio (I was doing 5 hours a week). However, my weight is dropping like crazy. My strength is up. For some reason I am having the best fat loss I have ever had right now. Anyone want to take a stab at why? I really don’t know. From a calories in vs. calories out standpoint this should not be happening.
You were probably overtraining before. Ever since I lowered my cardio and training volume, fat has been falling off of me.[/quote]
This is EXACTLY why that stupid fuck JMoUC or whatever his name is OVERSIMPLIFIES things by saying it’s all about calories in vs calories out. It is NOT that simply, at least not all the time.
To initially lose/gain weight? Sure, but when you’ve been at it for a while and are plateauing, rules change.
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
elusive wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean.
try it out. you’d be surprised.
Maybe, I used to be fat so I doubt it. According to caliper results I actually had really good results when following CT’s Carb Cycling Codex with a fairly high volume routine (NROL) and that has carbs between 140 and 320g of carbs but that was only for 6 weeks and I kept changing/increasing calories so it’s hard to be sure. Also, I made comments in my log I have that I looked a lot softer/worse but that could have just been from the increased carbs and calories.[/quote]
Hate to point out the obvious here, but properly timed carbs don’t make you fat. Excess carbs (read calories) during periods of inactivity will.
I used to be fat too and I’ve continuously dropped body fat and weight using big refeeds and still keeping my peri-WO carbs. Seriously, try it! Calories matter more IMO.
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
elusive wrote:
pumped340 wrote:
Man a lot of you seem to be able to handle carbs pretty well. 400g 2-3 days of the week and 200g 2-3 days a week seems like a lot more than i could handle while staying lean.
try it out. you’d be surprised.
Maybe, I used to be fat so I doubt it. According to caliper results I actually had really good results when following CT’s Carb Cycling Codex with a fairly high volume routine (NROL) and that has carbs between 140 and 320g of carbs but that was only for 6 weeks and I kept changing/increasing calories so it’s hard to be sure. Also, I made comments in my log I have that I looked a lot softer/worse but that could have just been from the increased carbs and calories.
Hate to point out the obvious here, but properly timed carbs don’t make you fat. Excess carbs (read calories) during periods of inactivity will.
I used to be fat too and I’ve continuously dropped body fat and weight using big refeeds and still keeping my peri-WO carbs. Seriously, try it! Calories matter more IMO.[/quote]
try it…lol I’ve tried almost every diet that I can think of. I agree with timed carb diet thing being really helpful but if you have 1000g of carbs after every workout your probably going to get fat even if it is at the right time. I’ve also gained a lot of fat from carbs only PWO and on a CKD so it’s not just about carb timing.
I’m also not saying I can’t have any carbs because as I said the CCC by thibs seemed to work well for the time I did it.
So, I seem to be becoming very carb-phobic. I am carb-intolerant and have been utilizing a 2 high/5 low day carb cycling approach and have done pretty well. I currently have submission grappling match coming up and need to drop about 4 pounds quick so I adapted a 6 day low/ 1 day high (after my match) approach. I am still taking in under 80-90 CHO/day and the only main “carb source” I have is an orange early in the morning. The rest of my CHOs come from veggies such as peppers, broccoli, spinach, mushrooms, and those in protein powder and cottage cheese. Would you guys consider all these carbs incidentals? I am also contemplating switching full time to 6 low/ 1 high refeed day considering the success of people on this board who have similar body types and past problems losing fat. What do you guys think?
One hell of a week - and one I never hope I have to go through again!
On Monday afternoon I had a bad reaction to the amount of stimulants in my system from too much coffee, working late at the weekend, taking HRX and Thermobol. Four days earlier I received some relationship news I didn’t want to hear but it didn’t really bother me - until Monday when, after the aforementioned cocktail of fat burners, coffee and sleep deprevation through work, I suddenly hit an incredible low. This resulted in grief for my lost love (I can just about joke about it now!), depression, anxiety, palpitations, diarrhea, frequent urination, dry mouth, zero appetite or desire to train.
Fortunately I still managed to eat two good P+F meals a day and supplememnt with 2xBCAAs meal replacements. I have been unable to train this week as a result, so walking has been my only activity. The upshot is that I’ve lost 6lbs in 6 days. This includes 1.25ins off my waist; my biceps have not altered so I’m confident I haven’t lost any lean mass. I’m now eating a bit more but I cannot train just yet.
My fortnightly carb-up is due tomorrow (Sunday). I was thinking of delaying the carb-up until I’m training again (6 days since last session).
I’m wondering if anyone has experienced such a lay-off mid-diet before for illness, injury, etc, and whether they would advocate the carb-up regardless or whether I should hold off until I resume training - hopefully Monday/Tuesday?
Any feedback appreciated.
