Carbs Cycling Experience

Nutrition
21

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Elusive-what does your fats look like on your low carb days. Do you keep them constant? I have been considering incorperating refeeeds after reading a lot from skip and shelby. I think they generally keep them constant and fairly low (around like 60-70 grams).

I think I have been a little overzealous in my diet so far and have cut cals too drastically and am looking to incorperate a refeed in a couple of days. My plan for the week is 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, 60-70 grams of fat, and then rotating carbs based on weight training never going over 100-150 a day. My fear is that going that low on carbs and fat during the week will make my body result in using protein for fuel but if I refeed well I am hoping to avoid it. Do you agree? [/quote]

That is EXACTLY what I’m doing. My fats usually land in around 60-70grams (usually 63 grams lately, for some reason. lol). My protein is set to 1.5 grams which makes it about 270 grams (im just under 190lbs). My carbs I listed above. You can’t go wrong with reading things from Shelby and Skip. All my planning has been pieced together from scattered info from these two plus Justin Harris and Lyle Mcdonald. After reading up on Skiploading, I was decided to incoroporate something similar to see how it worked for me. I have no complaints =)

Also, basically what I was trying to summarize from Justin Harris’ thoughts in one of my previous post. Don’t be afraid of dropping low on your low days. They are intentially low to burn the most fat. You will not lose muscle if your protein is at least set to 1 gram per pound. Also, don’t be afraid of your refeed, it has a purpose. Basically, don’t undermind what the days are originally set up to do.

22

[quote]elusive wrote:
ajweins wrote:
Elusive-what does your fats look like on your low carb days. Do you keep them constant? I have been considering incorperating refeeeds after reading a lot from skip and shelby. I think they generally keep them constant and fairly low (around like 60-70 grams).

I think I have been a little overzealous in my diet so far and have cut cals too drastically and am looking to incorperate a refeed in a couple of days. My plan for the week is 1.5 grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, 60-70 grams of fat, and then rotating carbs based on weight training never going over 100-150 a day. My fear is that going that low on carbs and fat during the week will make my body result in using protein for fuel but if I refeed well I am hoping to avoid it. Do you agree?

That is EXACTLY what I’m doing. My fats usually land in around 60-70grams (usually 63 grams lately, for some reason. lol). My protein is set to 1.5 grams which makes it about 270 grams (im just under 190lbs). My carbs I listed above. You can’t go wrong with reading things from Shelby and Skip. All my planning has been pieced together from scattered info from these two plus Justin Harris and Lyle Mcdonald. After reading up on Skiploading, I was decided to incoroporate something similar to see how it worked for me. I have no complaints =)

Also, basically what I was trying to summarize from Justin Harris’ thoughts in one of my previous post. Don’t be afraid of dropping low on your low days. They are intentially low to burn the most fat. You will not lose muscle if your protein is at least set to 1 gram per pound. Also, don’t be afraid of your refeed, it has a purpose. Basically, don’t undermind what the days are originally set up to do.[/quote]

I am no stranger to low carb diets. The scary thing for me is actually eating massive amounts of carbs on the refeed …I am not naturally lean so I have had lots of time with low carb diets. I have never done a the refeed with limiting fats though and am hoping to jumpstart some fat burning with this. I will plan my refeed for Sunday (off day). Now I have some motivation to crank up the volume these last two training days.

23

Wow… happy the thread has some activity…

I will post my daily log result when i have time.(thedailyplate.com)

Right now my macros are based on Shely article but nice to see others approach.

right now : 194lb
bf% : estimate 15% i guess

high day:
carbs: 388 to 582
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: as low as possible

low to moderate day:
carbs: 97 to 194
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: 48 to 97

Right now im wondering if i should start having zero carbs day or kind max around 30 to 50g.

But not today since i have a lunch with friends tonite…But i still try to get some quality food at the restaurant!

24

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
Wow… happy the thread has some activity…

I will post my daily log result when i have time.(thedailyplate.com)

Right now my macros are based on Shely article but nice to see others approach.

right now : 194lb
bf% : estimate 15% i guess

high day:
carbs: 388 to 582
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: as low as possible

low to moderate day:
carbs: 97 to 194
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: 48 to 97

Right now im wondering if i should start having zero carbs day or kind max around 30 to 50g.

But not today since i have a lunch with friends tonite…But i still try to get some quality food at the restaurant!
[/quote]

What are your goals? I’m seeing two methodologies here…one for bulking and one for fat loss (the zero carb day). You should pick an end result you have in mind and structure your diet around it.

The bottom line is, your fat loss will be accelerated with lower carbs.

25

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Sunday will be my refeed and also my heavy lifting day so I’ll “earn the carbs” so to speak. I’m going to keep the calories @ 2200 but try a macro breakdown of 60% C/ 30% F/ 10% P (kinda like an AD refeed).

Just putting together my shopping list now…[/quote]

Are you sure you want your fats that high and your protein that low? I know that this is what the AD recommends but are you following the AD during the week (with 60% of your calories coming from fats)? My general understanding from guys who seem to do the whole carb cycling/refeed deal the best (skip, justin, shelby, other guys at IM) mainly keep the fat as low as possible on their refeed day. Is there a specific reason why you want to keep you fats that high?

26

[quote]ajweins wrote:

Are you sure you want your fats that high and your protein that low? I know that this is what the AD recommends but are you following the AD during the week (with 60% of your calories coming from fats)? My general understanding from guys who seem to do the whole carb cycling/refeed deal the best (skip, justin, shelby, other guys at IM) mainly keep the fat as low as possible on their refeed day. Is there a specific reason why you want to keep you fats that high?[/quote]

Sheer experimentation AJ. I like to plan my meals before I eat them so breaking down the macros was my starting point. Would you recommend switching the fat/pro %s? Or should I focus on the carbs and keep the fats and proteins as low as possible?

27

I think it depends on the size of your refeed. IMO, fat should not be held to a ratio, but kept as low as possible. It doesn’t really help upregulate your metabolism (besides the calories it lends) and it’ll fill you up, possibly preventing you from eating the amount of carbs you need.

If you do end up eating a HUGE refeed the protein will most likely add up. I would just keep an eye on your protein and assure you at least get a 1 gram per pound. The first refeed is alot of guess work, but each following week you’ll be much better at it.

28

Ok that sounds a little more clear cut…well it explains your fat free pudding/ice cream, etc. Should I be aiming for a certain calorie number? Keep in mind I’ve been WAY below maintenance for almost 6 weeks (1400-2500 kcal/day) with a BMR around 3100.

Also, elusive I saw you mentioned you avoid a high amount of fiber. Is that purely to avoid a gut bomb that day and next or does it prevent you from eating as many CHO due to fullness?

29

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Ok that sounds a little more clear cut…well it explains your fat free pudding/ice cream, etc. Should I be aiming for a certain calorie number? Keep in mind I’ve been WAY below maintenance for almost 6 weeks (1400-2500 kcal/day) with a BMR around 3100.

Also, elusive I saw you mentioned you avoid a high amount of fiber. Is that purely to avoid a gut bomb that day and next or does it prevent you from eating as many CHO due to fullness?[/quote]

Yeah, I aim to really minimize fat as much as a possibly can. I buy mostly fat free stuff and have some low fat stuff as well. I didn’t really have a calorie goal in mind my first go round. As long as its above your BMR. My 1st time I was aiming for at least 600 carbs, which I got easily. My following refeed was to hit 800 and it grew from there. Do something like this (trial and error) and monitor your progress. If you get back to baseline quickly, you know its cool to increase your refeed. In a few days I should know what I need to adjust for my next one.

As for the fiber. You basically have the right idea. It’ll fill you up and make you feel like shit (at such high amounts). It’s best to keep it as low as you can.

30

I’ve had huge success with UD2 which is a carb cycling protocol (a very exact and very technical one)

The only downside is you have to be incredibly strict as if you fuck it up even slightly it barely works at all.

worth every cent of the e-book though.

31

Link stevo_?

Could you describe why you went with UD2 and what changes you went through?

32

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Link stevo_?

Could you describe why you went with UD2 and what changes you went through?[/quote]

Google UD2 and Lyle McDonald. For whatever reason he’s not wildly popular with here so I’d rather not post links to what could be considered “competitive”

Thibs has referenced him a few times and has based some of his diets on similar things (UD = Ultimate Diet and was actually originally designed by Dan Duchaine). This is an updated version that is easier to stick to and designed for more regular people (although its still very strict and very technical)

The reason i did it was because quite honestly…It was well recommended (may have even been from thibs but PLEASE don’t quote me on that) and totally idiot proof. The training, nutrition, supplementation is all given down to the most minor detail. I just wanted something where i didn’t have to think. someone smarter and more knowledgeable had done it for me.

As for results…i realize this is incredibly unscientific but I got much leaner, a little bigger, rapidly.

Sorry to be vague but it was some years ago when i had the freedom to eat and train as I pleased. I would do it again in a second but its to hard with the way i travel now and the random equipment i have access to some weeks.

Before anyone asks, no im not affiliated or associated in anyway to this, i dont profit from it, i’m just a random dude on the internet who had great success with the product.

33

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
ajweins wrote:

Are you sure you want your fats that high and your protein that low? I know that this is what the AD recommends but are you following the AD during the week (with 60% of your calories coming from fats)? My general understanding from guys who seem to do the whole carb cycling/refeed deal the best (skip, justin, shelby, other guys at IM) mainly keep the fat as low as possible on their refeed day. Is there a specific reason why you want to keep you fats that high?

Sheer experimentation AJ. I like to plan my meals before I eat them so breaking down the macros was my starting point. Would you recommend switching the fat/pro %s? Or should I focus on the carbs and keep the fats and proteins as low as possible?[/quote]

Experiment away if you want, just be sure measure the effects…and as for your caloric intake, if you are going for a true refeed, you would try to get as many calories as possible to ignite your metabolism. So your calories would be well above maintenance. This is the approach I am taking (I do not know if its the right one, we shall see). This has obviously worked for elusive and his enormous sweet tooth :slight_smile:

I am probably going to go for 600-800 grams of carbs this first go around with at least 250 grams of protein and see what the measurement tape and scale say the following week and judge from there. I like you have been in a pretty strong caloric deficit as well. I would only do the extreme refeed if you are doing extreme deficits during the week, which is what I am doing. If you are only doing roughly 500 cals a day deficits then I would think a more moderate carb-up meal or two would be better.

34

That’s good stuff AJ I’m definitely gonna shoot for around 3,500 kcal on my refeed as my body needs the glycogen and my metabolism could use a kick in the ass.

I’ve been running on fumes but my energy level has been way higher on solid food, as opposed to the Velocity diet, talk about torture.

Pancakes in a can is on my shopping list lol!

35

To Stevo_ and phatkins187:

I have done the UD 2.0 and have posted my progress using it here on the forums. Search for “Lyle McDonald UD 2.0” or something like that. It was the diet I used at the end of my cut last year.

Lyle McDonald’s work was the first to really introduce me to giant refeeds. His books (all of them, I really recommend The Ketogenic Diet and Guide to Flexible Dieting) are very informative and helpful. Since last year, I’ve been doing lots of reading on the refeeding subject and have wandered across Team Troponin’s work (Shelby Stanes and Justin Harris) and Ken “Skip” Hill’s work. My own refeeds now are based off info I’ve gathered from all of them. With a little experimenting I think I’ve found what works for me and its actually pretty simple.

For what its worth, I wasn’t too happy with the UD 2.0 when I did it last year. I found it VERY tough throughout the week, with a big refeed at the end of the week that I felt “wasn’t worth it”. With all the grinding I did on that diet I only lost 1 pound. To be fair though, I started that diet after 10-11 weeks or so of tough keto dieting. I could be possible that my metabolism was soo shot down that the results I got from the UD 2.0 were sub par.

Another intresting aside. My diet throughout the week now is much “easier” than the UD 2.0 and my refeed is much larger. lol.

36

Shit, I figure I have nothing to lose by reading the UD 2.0 material…I’m gonna pick it up tonight since I have a 7AM tee time tomorrow. Either read or go see FAST and FURIOUS!!! Tough choice there…

I figure after Velocity any refeed (like UD 2.0) is better than 1 Healthy solid meal a week. Does Lyle prescribe cardio as well? I’d be interested in leaning up a bit for summer.

37

[quote]elusive wrote:
To Stevo_ and phatkins187:

I have done the UD 2.0 and have posted my progress using it here on the forums. Search for “Lyle McDonald UD 2.0” or something like that. It was the diet I used at the end of my cut last year.

Lyle McDonald’s work was the first to really introduce me to giant refeeds. His books (all of them, I really recommend The Ketogenic Diet and Guide to Flexible Dieting) are very informative and helpful. Since last year, I’ve been doing lots of reading on the refeeding subject and have wandered across Team Troponin’s work (Shelby Stanes and Justin Harris) and Ken “Skip” Hill’s work. My own refeeds now are based off info I’ve gathered from all of them. With a little experimenting I think I’ve found what works for me and its actually pretty simple.

For what its worth, I wasn’t too happy with the UD 2.0 when I did it last year. I found it VERY tough throughout the week, with a big refeed at the end of the week that I felt “wasn’t worth it”. With all the grinding I did on that diet I only lost 1 pound. To be fair though, I started that diet after 10-11 weeks or so of tough keto dieting. I could be possible that my metabolism was soo shot down that the results I got from the UD 2.0 were sub par.

Another intresting aside. My diet throughout the week now is much “easier” than the UD 2.0 and my refeed is much larger. lol.[/quote]

I think he recommends some weeks of normal eating before you do UD2 so that could be why,

To be fair, i’ve always okwell on low cals for some reason. i just don’t find it as strength or energy sapping as a lot of people do (not sure if that’s good or bad)

The depletion workouts are painful, no way around that, but all in all i just found it perfect for me. Bust ass during the week, refeed on fri. good workout sat. i dunno, just all seemed to fit for me.

bottom line, carb cycling rules. I hope this turns out to be the “Carb cycling” version of the AD thread.

38

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
Shit, I figure I have nothing to lose by reading the UD 2.0 material…I’m gonna pick it up tonight since I have a 7AM tee time tomorrow. Either read or go see FAST and FURIOUS!!! Tough choice there…

I figure after Velocity any refeed (like UD 2.0) is better than 1 Healthy solid meal a week. Does Lyle prescribe cardio as well? I’d be interested in leaning up a bit for summer.[/quote]

On the UD 2.0 he does prescribe cardio. Moderate intensity cardio a handful of times in the beginning of the week. Nothing too bad cardio wise.

39

[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
crankMAN wrote:
Wow… happy the thread has some activity…

I will post my daily log result when i have time.(thedailyplate.com)

Right now my macros are based on Shely article but nice to see others approach.

right now : 194lb
bf% : estimate 15% i guess

high day:
carbs: 388 to 582
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: as low as possible

low to moderate day:
carbs: 97 to 194
proteins: 194 to 291
fat: 48 to 97

Right now im wondering if i should start having zero carbs day or kind max around 30 to 50g.

But not today since i have a lunch with friends tonite…But i still try to get some quality food at the restaurant!

What are your goals? I’m seeing two methodologies here…one for bulking and one for fat loss (the zero carb day). You should pick an end result you have in mind and structure your diet around it.

The bottom line is, your fat loss will be accelerated with lower carbs.[/quote]

Well my goal, being really lean for mid june…8-10%. Wakeboard and summer season, last year i did the anabolic diet but went crazy after a few weeks, 5 days of zero carbs in a row…i have to say that im 34 year old, at 20 i didnt have to worry much about the diet to see abs…now of course im bigger but still, i like to be big and ripped…

As per Shelby article i can take from 97 to 194g of carbs/day…to me it look kind of high…but who am i to say this!!

What im thinking is dieting as per Shelby macros until the end of may and then for the last 3 to 4 weeks doing the regressive keto cycle…

Anyone else with suggestion is welcome.

by the way here the macro for this shitty friday…cheat day and worst for the last two weeks!

Cals Fat Cholest Sodium Carbs Sugars Fiber prote 3,042 62g 193mg 2,210mg 147g 57g 6g 99g

there you go!

Nice to see how you guys approach carbs etc…

40

Elusive is one slick, carb-eating bastard.

That is all.