Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
942

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]
Thats NOT what this is about. Carb Backloading relies on the fact that your body is a fat burner predominantly. Not a carb/protein burner. If you aren’t getting enough fat in your no carb portion of the day and off days then you are not likely to be producing enough of the enzymes that you need to burn fat. If you feel “dodgy” in the No Carb parts of the diet this is an indicator that your body is not efficient at using its own bodyfat reserves as fuel. This would make the diet pretty terrible.

The idea is that in the no carb parts of the diet you should be getting a large majority of your calories from fat. Thats where Kiefers 1:1 ratio of Fat/Protein in grams recommendation comes from. This gives you a rough spread of 70:30 Fat/Protein calories. [/quote]

Do you have the book man? I understand where you are coming from, and I agree off days you need to keep fat intake quite high. I think on training days though, you don’t need all that much, looking at the meal plans he presents in the book.

943

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Thats NOT what this is about. Carb Backloading relies on the fact that your body is a fat burner predominantly. Not a carb/protein burner. If you aren’t getting enough fat in your no carb portion of the day and off days then you are not likely to be producing enough of the enzymes that you need to burn fat. If you feel “dodgy” in the No Carb parts of the diet this is an indicator that your body is not efficient at using its own bodyfat reserves as fuel. This would make the diet pretty terrible.

The idea is that in the no carb parts of the diet you should be getting a large majority of your calories from fat. Thats where Kiefers 1:1 ratio of Fat/Protein in grams recommendation comes from. This gives you a rough spread of 70:30 Fat/Protein calories. [/quote]

Do you have the book man? I understand where you are coming from, and I agree off days you need to keep fat intake quite high. I think on training days though, you don’t need all that much, looking at the meal plans he presents in the book. [/quote]
Nah I havent looked at the meal plans. Mostly because I want to eat what I want to eat! (;

Training days (depending on when you are training) you still have a large period of no carb eating. You may end up eating less fat since some of the protein youll eat will be in the carb backloading period

say 250g protein split in half. 125g in the no carb portion and 125g in the backload. So you should still get a minimum 125g of fat before training. No matter how clean you eat youll still get some fats PWO too. My 1/4 tub of ice cream has 50g of fat. You need calories as well not just Carbs so I dont see why youd need to reduce fat insanely.

944

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Thats NOT what this is about. Carb Backloading relies on the fact that your body is a fat burner predominantly. Not a carb/protein burner. If you aren’t getting enough fat in your no carb portion of the day and off days then you are not likely to be producing enough of the enzymes that you need to burn fat. If you feel “dodgy” in the No Carb parts of the diet this is an indicator that your body is not efficient at using its own bodyfat reserves as fuel. This would make the diet pretty terrible.

The idea is that in the no carb parts of the diet you should be getting a large majority of your calories from fat. Thats where Kiefers 1:1 ratio of Fat/Protein in grams recommendation comes from. This gives you a rough spread of 70:30 Fat/Protein calories. [/quote]

Do you have the book man? I understand where you are coming from, and I agree off days you need to keep fat intake quite high. I think on training days though, you don’t need all that much, looking at the meal plans he presents in the book. [/quote]
Nah I havent looked at the meal plans. Mostly because I want to eat what I want to eat! (;

Training days (depending on when you are training) you still have a large period of no carb eating. You may end up eating less fat since some of the protein youll eat will be in the carb backloading period

say 250g protein split in half. 125g in the no carb portion and 125g in the backload. So you should still get a minimum 125g of fat before training. No matter how clean you eat youll still get some fats PWO too. My 1/4 tub of ice cream has 50g of fat. You need calories as well not just Carbs so I dont see why youd need to reduce fat insanely. [/quote]

I never said reduce it insanely. I’m just saying I think he is getting enough fat now with his plan according to Keifer’s recommendations for training day. I’m going by what I understand as Keifer’s suggestions.

945

[quote]Aphamos wrote:
Hey guys,

Has anyone had success with early morning training and CBL in tandem? Kiefer’s protocol (from my understanding) includes drinking coffee/getting in some sort of caffeine with carbs post-workout, and then back-loading the regular way in the evening.

Is anyone seeing the same type of result with this form of CBL? Afternoon lifting is impossible with my work schedule, so my usage of the program is limited to its early morning form.

Thanks![/quote]

I’m probably one of the few guys which CBL really didn’t work for, at least to the extent of the large amount of carbs everyone else seems to be backloading. Had to cut down from almost 400 - 500 to about 250 - 300 (and cleaner), and currently seeing how that goes. Kind of disappointing for me because I really like the CBL style of eating.

Anyway to answer your question the one thing that I did notice is that it worked MUCH better when working out at the end of the day and then backloading. Unfortunately most of the time I have to get the workout in during an extended lunch hour as opposed to the end of the day.

To be honest I really don’t think the diet is really that special as opposed to other diet plans where you consume carbs around the workout. I’ve always done a reverse type of CBL where I’d workout early in the day, carb up right after (not with an enormous amount) then continue rest of the day with protein/fat and finish my last meal 4-5 hrs before bed.

I wake up following morning have coffee and dont eat for a couple of hrs cause I’m just not hungry then start off with high protein/fat meal and continue protein/fat meals till fifteen mins prior to workout (whenever that is) when I have gatorade and whey or Anaconda. Carb up after and then back to protein/fat. So in essence I would fast almost 16 hrs.

I’m going to continue CBL and strictly track calories to see if it’s any better than my old way.

And that’s my log and experience with CBL if anyone cares lol.

946

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
Tried backloading yesterday…

1100am 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
330pm 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
445-6pm Workout
600-11pm 3.5 cups cottage cheese, 2 cups oats, 2 granola bars, bowl or cereal, fruit and picked at other things

Today I had the worst brain fog I’ve had in a long time… Also the first time I’ve had that much dairy/wheat dairy in a long time So maybe I’ll try cutting dairy or wheat next time. [/quote]

MAF14 Im sorry to say this, but this is not a good way tobackload. Even if you dont have the book, you should do a little more research before starting this journey. 12 eggs 30 grams of fat and slow digesting carbs are all no nos

947

[quote]as wrote:

I’m probably one of the few guys which CBL really didn’t work for, at least to the extent of the large amount of carbs everyone else seems to be backloading. Had to cut down from almost 400 - 500 to about 250 - 300 (and cleaner), and currently seeing how that goes. Kind of disappointing for me because I really like the CBL style of eating.

Anyway to answer your question the one thing that I did notice is that it worked MUCH better when working out at the end of the day and then backloading. Unfortunately most of the time I have to get the workout in during an extended lunch hour as opposed to the end of the day.

To be honest I really don’t think the diet is really that special as opposed to other diet plans where you consume carbs around the workout. I’ve always done a reverse type of CBL where I’d workout early in the day, carb up right after (not with an enormous amount) then continue rest of the day with protein/fat and finish my last meal 4-5 hrs before bed.

I wake up following morning have coffee and dont eat for a couple of hrs cause I’m just not hungry then start off with high protein/fat meal and continue protein/fat meals till fifteen mins prior to workout (whenever that is) when I have gatorade and whey or Anaconda. Carb up after and then back to protein/fat. So in essence I would fast almost 16 hrs.

I’m going to continue CBL and strictly track calories to see if it’s any better than my old way.

And that’s my log and experience with CBL if anyone cares lol.

[/quote]
Its more than likely that you have already optimised your own version of CBL with your previous diet. A lot of what you did falls in line with the basic recommendations. Youve just refined it to yourself which is what everyone on this diet should be doing. Im not as lean as you in that avi and I cant get away with crazy amounts of carbs either but Im fine with that. 300-400grams of carbs pwo feels like a lot to me atm. Cant wait till I start bulking though. Thatll be interesting.

948

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here’s a pic of me flexed. I’ll get another one next week in hopefully the same setting. Looking to add strength, whatever happens with body comp, happens :). Obvi I wouldn’t be upset if I also got leaner/bigger hahaha

949

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
here’s a pic of me flexed. I’ll get another one next week in hopefully the same setting. Looking to add strength, whatever happens with body comp, happens :). Obvi I wouldn’t be upset if I also got leaner/bigger hahaha[/quote]
Go for gold man! If I was you I would stick with Strength Accumulation but try to push calories up for weight gain. I think youll still be able to recomp slightly while gaining mass this way. Density Bulking would be too much for you atm since you want to stay as lean or get leaner still.

Whats your history like? How much lighter/heavier have you been? How much muscle/fat etc? What about strength?

950

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./

951

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]
Thats NOT what this is about. Carb Backloading relies on the fact that your body is a fat burner predominantly. Not a carb/protein burner. If you aren’t getting enough fat in your no carb portion of the day and off days then you are not likely to be producing enough of the enzymes that you need to burn fat. If you feel “dodgy” in the No Carb parts of the diet this is an indicator that your body is not efficient at using its own bodyfat reserves as fuel. This would make the diet pretty terrible.

The idea is that in the no carb parts of the diet you should be getting a large majority of your calories from fat. Thats where Kiefers 1:1 ratio of Fat/Protein in grams recommendation comes from. This gives you a rough spread of 70:30 Fat/Protein calories. [/quote]

Do you have the book man? I understand where you are coming from, and I agree off days you need to keep fat intake quite high. I think on training days though, you don’t need all that much, looking at the meal plans he presents in the book. [/quote]

Also he gives amounts in the charts in the appendix and they are low in the 30s-50s depending on size

952

Glitch - training history is kinda lol. I’ve done everything wrong, one might say, up until semi-recently.

A few months back I did 5/3/1 for a bit of time, then hopped onto 5/3/1 for Powerlifting.
Recently I’ve made the best decision possible, and hired Detazathoth from this site to do my programming. PM him if you want details. But my goals are Powerlifting oriented, and physique is secondary.

I’m curious what you mean by push the calories to gain weight while getting leaner? How does one achieve such a feat?

I will say, however, that for the past 3 or so months I was doing Leangains IF, and it WAS going great, until the past few weeks when I felt weak and began losing strength. With CBL, I feel the hulk effect kiefer writes about, lol. I can already see more vasculatiry, especially in my upper body, and I feel like my muscle ‘look’ bigger and my workouts are more powerful. All in all, I’m pretty happy already :slight_smile:

I’m still trying to figure out how many carbs to roll with, however. This will take some experimentation. So, here’s today’s menu:

9:30 wake up
11:00 kiefer coffee
12:00 Kiefer coffee + 1/2 cup almonds
4:00 8 oz chicken, 1 tbsp coconut oil, veges, a small handful of almonds
5:00 lift my booty off
6:30: 25g whey, 2 skinny cow vanilla caramel ice cream cones (lol) - 60g carb
8:30: 3 crispy chicken tacos from mexican restaurant w/ buddies - not sure
9:00: medium sized frozen yogurt filled to the brim - not sure
10:00: 2 more skinny cows, frozen strawberries mixed w/ cottage cheese - 160g carb

953

Damnit, now I really want to read the book :slight_smile:

Gotta start saving up

954

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
here’s a pic of me flexed. I’ll get another one next week in hopefully the same setting. Looking to add strength, whatever happens with body comp, happens :). Obvi I wouldn’t be upset if I also got leaner/bigger hahaha[/quote]

Great… more Hlss n00ds…

955

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./[/quote]

I backload only on training days (M-F), where I train twice a day and I still get under 50 g of fat on a high carb/backload day. Doesn’t affect my energy levels at all, and I know that’s considered low for most on this forum (keep in mind, I do not wish to gain any weight, my sport is weight dependent so I’m usually looking to maintain or cut)

I’ve never tried higher fat when backloading, but I feel great doing what I’ve been doing. I do much higher fat on my off days, and no starch/carbs other than green veggies.

956

[quote]ugaMMA411 wrote:

Doesn’t affect my energy levels at all, and I know that’s considered low for most on this forum (keep in mind, I do not wish to gain any weight, my sport is weight dependent so I’m usually looking to maintain or cut)

I’ve never tried higher fat when backloading, but I feel great doing what I’ve been doing. [/quote]

I think the key is that you’ve found what works for you. I know if I get in around 80-100g of fat with my lunch salad meal, and then a small fat/pro snack in the afternoon, I have kick ass gym sessions. But then, I’m trying to gain weight and am gaining roughly .5-1 lb a week. You’ve done the same thing here, e.g. finding what you need to excel in your sport. Well done.

957

[quote]wiggles wrote:
I think the key is that you’ve found what works for you. I know if I get in around 80-100g of fat with my lunch salad meal, and then a small fat/pro snack in the afternoon, I have kick ass gym sessions. But then, I’m trying to gain weight and am gaining roughly .5-1 lb a week. You’ve done the same thing here, e.g. finding what you need to excel in your sport. Well done.[/quote]

Exactly you find a diet template that mostly fits your goals and how you like to eat. Then you tweak things to work better for you and your goals at the time.

I am having no problems gaining weight with CBL/warrior diet. Underfead during the day 600-800cals 30g of fat the rest pro. A big ass salad. Then workout with whey and bcaas. and then load in carbs and some carb and more pro and little fat. Strength going up BW going up body fat staying the same. Also i do a lot of moving around during the day and a small to medium amount of manual labor. My gym sessions are 2-2.5hrs and no time during the day to i feel rundown/brain fog ect. I never lose energy through my session either. I cannot complain.

Experiment thats how you find out what works for you in the weightlifting/physique enhancement game. Nothing will work the same for 2 different ppl

958

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

Keifer’s own words regarding eggs:

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”
[/quote]

Based on eggs low score on the insulin index (240 kcals is about 2-3 eggs) on wikipedia, I’m not sure where Keifers coming from. Does he tell people to avoid eating too much beef (higher than egg on the table)? I’d also imagine whey would score higher, is that also a no-no on low carb days?

959

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

Keifer’s own words regarding eggs:

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”
[/quote]

Based on eggs low score on the insulin index (240 kcals is about 2-3 eggs) on wikipedia, I’m not sure where Keifers coming from. Does he tell people to avoid eating too much beef (higher than egg on the table)? I’d also imagine whey would score higher, is that also a no-no on low carb days?

[/quote]

He does say if you eat eggs with cheese, lots of butter, sour cream ect, that it lowers the insulin response greatly. So it’s not like eggs are off-limits always, just they need not be eaten alone.

960

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./[/quote]
What you say about the book is true. This doesnt however change Kiefer’s current recommendations which I imagine will be updated in any newer versions of the book.

1:1 Protein/Fat is now whats recommended, anyone doing less than this should look to change it if they notice any performance deterioration, trouble gaining muscle or losing fat.

961

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./[/quote]
What you say about the book is true. This doesnt however change Kiefer’s current recommendations which I imagine will be updated in any newer versions of the book.

1:1 Protein/Fat is now whats recommended, anyone doing less than this should look to change it if they notice any performance deterioration, trouble gaining muscle or losing fat. [/quote]

Not saying you are wrong, but can you show me where you found this??

I know he suggests the 1:1 ratio for your meals in the low carb portion of the day, and off days. But I haven’t seen him write on ALL days a 1:1 overall ratio for protein and fat. AS in suggesting if I take in 200g of protein I should take in around 200g of fat as well, even on days I back load.