Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
922

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]cavemancop wrote:
I need some help trying to figure out an AM training carb backloading protcol.

I usualy wake up around 0700, drink coffee and then train fasted. Then I go to work for twelve hours and get home at about 1100 fuck around for maybe an hour then go to bed. Im 5’10 180lbs now and would like to loose some bodyfat and maintain/gain muscle. I need some help on how much and when I should carb backload.

Thanks for the help [/quote]

From what I’ve read, you should consume a carb and protein drink right after your workout, then avoid all carbs until evening.

[/quote]

^This

Though I know Ryan, and StormingTheBeach has had success with training in the morning and just waiting until after 6pm to ingest carbs. Ryan can tell you more, but some research supports that.

STB lifts heavy in the morning, then does lifter stuff in the PM I think though. [/quote]

From what i have read for a diff forum and the research they posted ( i posted some of the titles for ppl to search if they wished earlier in this thread) that you would want an insulin spike post workout with out the use of carbs then consume carbs in the evening like usual. There are many posts farther back that i wont repeat. Basically the thought from this reserach is the longer you deprive the body of carbs post workout the more insulin sensitive the muscles become BUt you will lose the Glut 4 insulin independent translocation that you get form heavy lifting.[/quote]

From what I’ve read of carb-backloading and podcasts I’ve listened to (haven’t tried CBL yet), is you do want a small amount of carbs post AM training. The carbload from the previous night enhances the effects of the post WO carbs the following morning, so you need much less than normal. I think about 20g. After that shake, you then would return to low carb eating and then carb load past 6pm (if training the next morning only).

923

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Scuba steve-o wrote:
Why so little protein in some of these backloads? Just as a couple examples:

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:17:30 Gym
19:15 PWO shake, 40g carbs from dextrose powder, 50g protein, 2 cups milk - 40g carbs
19:45 3 hawaiian sweet rolls with PB and 4 double stuff oreos - 90g carbs
20:30 Cuban bakery food on way to ladies house and pound cake- 120g carbs
22:00 Pasta - 50g carbs
04:00 AM, get home, still hungry 2 slices pizza and 1 more slice pound cake 80g carbs

TOTAL: 390[/quote]

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:8:00 gym
10:00 PWO shake, 60g carbs
17:00 3 eggs, Various veggies with sauerkraut - 5g carbs
18:30 PWO shake - 60g carbs
20:00 Lots of mac and cheese with ice cream - 200 carbs [/quote]

[quote]hlss09 wrote:

4:00pm: lift

5:30: 25g whey

6:00: 2 pop tarts

7:00: huge rice krispy treat (the big ones they sell at 7-11)

11:00: 2 pancakes smothered in maple syrup, 2 pieces chicken apple sausage, 2 eggs, small milkshake

1:00am: big fruit bowl (6 cups strawberries covered in 1 cup cottage cheese), bowl of ice cream [/quote]

In the book (note: I have not read it) does he not recommend a lot of protein during the backload?[/quote]

it looks like a lot of these have between 75-100g in each backload probably. He only recommends around 1g/lb BW. So if you get protein in meals pre-backload, the probably hit their protein requirements.

Also when you eat a lot of carbs, you inevitably get a good deal of protein a lot of times. Eating pizza usually has meat on it, some ice cream has a good deal of it, etc…
[/quote]

I have to disagree with your last statement, Spidey. At least in my case. All the carb foods I consume on my backload have none, or negligible protein.

In any event, I wonder if there’s still truth in the protein-sparing effects of carbs. Anyone know?

924

Protein fearers: I used to follow the example set by the DC boys and eat 2x BW in grams of protein. When I was, say, 205, I was eating around 400-450g protein…lol.

Now I range from 185-250. In fact, I take in 185, but I ONLY count protein when it’s a main macro. So, I count protein from whey, meats, etc. I don’t count protein from ice cream, oats, pizza, etc. Mainly for convenience. So, my 185 pro might be closer to 250.

Kiefer recommends around .8-1.2g pro/lb BW on training days b/c of the protein sparing effect of carbs

925

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
^ Got ya, appreciate the extra input![/quote]

Marq,

Check your PMs. I’m sending 3 great articles that would probably get deleted here.

Mark

[/quote]

Got the link :slight_smile:

Thanks.

926

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]cavemancop wrote:
I need some help trying to figure out an AM training carb backloading protcol.

I usualy wake up around 0700, drink coffee and then train fasted. Then I go to work for twelve hours and get home at about 1100 fuck around for maybe an hour then go to bed. Im 5’10 180lbs now and would like to loose some bodyfat and maintain/gain muscle. I need some help on how much and when I should carb backload.

Thanks for the help [/quote]

From what I’ve read, you should consume a carb and protein drink right after your workout, then avoid all carbs until evening.

[/quote]

^This

Though I know Ryan, and StormingTheBeach has had success with training in the morning and just waiting until after 6pm to ingest carbs. Ryan can tell you more, but some research supports that.

STB lifts heavy in the morning, then does lifter stuff in the PM I think though. [/quote]

From what i have read for a diff forum and the research they posted ( i posted some of the titles for ppl to search if they wished earlier in this thread) that you would want an insulin spike post workout with out the use of carbs then consume carbs in the evening like usual. There are many posts farther back that i wont repeat. Basically the thought from this reserach is the longer you deprive the body of carbs post workout the more insulin sensitive the muscles become BUt you will lose the Glut 4 insulin independent translocation that you get form heavy lifting.[/quote]

From what I’ve read of carb-backloading and podcasts I’ve listened to (haven’t tried CBL yet), is you do want a small amount of carbs post AM training. The carbload from the previous night enhances the effects of the post WO carbs the following morning, so you need much less than normal. I think about 20g. After that shake, you then would return to low carb eating and then carb load past 6pm (if training the next morning only).[/quote]

This is what keifer says i was just stating there is another forum that shows research that contradicts that. If people want to read about regiester for dat b true’s site and read on carbless post workout.

927

Hey guys I was wondering if it’s cool with you all, and Siouxfan, if I post a weekly update photo in this log, to track progress. It seems that I SUCK at objectively assessing my physique, and I’d like to get feedback.

PS my goals are to get lean as fuck and big as a bull :slight_smile:

928

How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat

929

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent!

930

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat

931

Tried backloading yesterday…

1100am 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
330pm 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
445-6pm Workout
600-11pm 3.5 cups cottage cheese, 2 cups oats, 2 granola bars, bowl or cereal, fruit and picked at other things

Today I had the worst brain fog I’ve had in a long time… Also the first time I’ve had that much dairy/wheat dairy in a long time So maybe I’ll try cutting dairy or wheat next time.

932

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

lol

Actually, I’m guilty of not adding enough fat in my own meal plan.

933

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
Tried backloading yesterday…

1100am 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
330pm 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
445-6pm Workout
600-11pm 3.5 cups cottage cheese, 2 cups oats, 2 granola bars, bowl or cereal, fruit and picked at other things

Today I had the worst brain fog I’ve had in a long time… Also the first time I’ve had that much dairy/wheat dairy in a long time So maybe I’ll try cutting dairy or wheat next time. [/quote]

Maf

Do you know Keifer suggests not eating a lot of eggs early in the day.

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”

He later suggests eating bacon or sausage with the eggs so the fat slows the insulin response… or just be sure to up the EVO or VCO consumption.

EDIT: By the way, did you get my PM regarding the info for Dr Pileggi?

934

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

That’s 12 organic eggs, which is 60 grams of fat.
Cream, coconut oil and fish caps should be another 60.
Then the meat, milk and cookies and I should be well over the 125 grams of fat.

How much do you recommend and where would you like me to add it? And what kind, if that matters?

@ID; thanks but it seems more fat is in order. No problem, only makes the food taste better!

EDIT: after seeing ID’s post I guess it is better to not have the eggs in the after noon and stick to meat, large portion, only.

935

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference.

936

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

Keifer’s own words regarding eggs:

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”

937

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

Keifer’s own words regarding eggs:

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”
[/quote]

Sorry I should have written that better. I PERSONALLY wouldn’t eat a lot of eggs in general during my backload or any other really large source of fat, as I’m focused on getting carbs in at that time. So ID you’re right, I guess eggs wouldn’t go great in the first half of the day as they would in the second half then.

938

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
Tried backloading yesterday…

1100am 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
330pm 6 Eggs 1 tbsp VCO
445-6pm Workout
600-11pm 3.5 cups cottage cheese, 2 cups oats, 2 granola bars, bowl or cereal, fruit and picked at other things

Today I had the worst brain fog I’ve had in a long time… Also the first time I’ve had that much dairy/wheat dairy in a long time So maybe I’ll try cutting dairy or wheat next time. [/quote]

Maf

Do you know Keifer suggests not eating a lot of eggs early in the day.

“Eggs contain primarily fat and protein and at most one gram of carbohydrate. Despite the overwhelming predominance of those two non insulin-stimulating macronutrients, eggs can spike insulin levels. Don’t, therefore, eat eggs in great abundance during the low-carb portion of the day. One egg, not a problem. Six or more all at once, problem.”

He later suggests eating bacon or sausage with the eggs so the fat slows the insulin response… or just be sure to up the EVO or VCO consumption.

EDIT: By the way, did you get my PM regarding the info for Dr Pileggi?

[/quote]

Ah, thanks for that. And yes I did, thank you very much, I just can’t respond.

939

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
How is this as an example on training days (I am 240lbs, 15% body fat)?:

5:30 AM: wake up and walk dog for 45 minutes
6:30 AM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
9:30 AM: Kiefer coffee (same as 6:30 but add 10 grams protein)
12:00 noon: organic, free range eggs, grass fed beef and spinach
2:30 PM: coffee with cream and coconut oil, 5 fish oil caps
4:00-6:00 PM: train with weights
5:30 PM: start sipping on shake: 30-60 grams protein and 120-240 grams dextrose or rilose powder
7:00-10:30 PM: rice pudding (4 cups rice with milk and 2-4 scoops protein), 6 more organic free range eggs and a bit of meat, 4 cups organic milk with 12 homemade cookies (oats and raisins). 4 yams with marshmellows.

Goal:
750-1000 gram carbs
250 gram protein
75-125 gram fat
[/quote]

That looks excellent! [/quote]
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]
Thats NOT what this is about. Carb Backloading relies on the fact that your body is a fat burner predominantly. Not a carb/protein burner. If you aren’t getting enough fat in your no carb portion of the day and off days then you are not likely to be producing enough of the enzymes that you need to burn fat. If you feel “dodgy” in the No Carb parts of the diet this is an indicator that your body is not efficient at using its own bodyfat reserves as fuel. This would make the diet pretty terrible.

The idea is that in the no carb parts of the diet you should be getting a large majority of your calories from fat. Thats where Kiefers 1:1 ratio of Fat/Protein in grams recommendation comes from. This gives you a rough spread of 70:30 Fat/Protein calories.

940

Ya Glitch, I was getting like 100g pro/30g fat in the 1st half of my training days,
Now i’m getting around 75 pro/75g fat. Much better.

I’m going for around 185pro/185 fat on off days.

Any verdict on the pics btw, lol

941

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
Ya Glitch, I was getting like 100g pro/30g fat in the 1st half of my training days,
Now i’m getting around 75 pro/75g fat. Much better.

I’m going for around 185pro/185 fat on off days.

Any verdict on the pics btw, lol [/quote]
Havent seen any pics yet sorry mate. If you posted them in here I cant see them atm because Im at work and a lot of it is blocked.