Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
962

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./[/quote]
What you say about the book is true. This doesnt however change Kiefer’s current recommendations which I imagine will be updated in any newer versions of the book.

1:1 Protein/Fat is now whats recommended, anyone doing less than this should look to change it if they notice any performance deterioration, trouble gaining muscle or losing fat. [/quote]

Not saying you are wrong, but can you show me where you found this??

I know he suggests the 1:1 ratio for your meals in the low carb portion of the day, and off days. But I haven’t seen him write on ALL days a 1:1 overall ratio for protein and fat. AS in suggesting if I take in 200g of protein I should take in around 200g of fat as well, even on days I back load. [/quote]
Its mostly from podcasts that Ive heard him say this. Considering he see’s no reason to limit fat in the backloading period (sensible amounts obviously) Id imagine this 1:1 ratio is set for every day. You need to be getting your calories in as well.

963

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Not enough fat[/quote]

Ehh, as long as you hit about .45g/lb BW with fat, you have enough for essential hormone production and all that jazz. After that it’s really just a matter of preference. I’d say for a diet like this, I’d rather save my calories for carbs. I think it looks pretty good IMO as a eating plan. I wouldn’t want the eggs in my backload, just because I try to keep my fat sources more in the beginning of the day, but I doubt it’ll make all too much of a difference. [/quote]

I barely take in 20g of fat in the first part of my day and get about .45g/lb by the end of the day. I do just fine with energy levels. In fact i do a decent amount of manual labor through the day and eat probably only 800cals 180-200 from fat. Yet i am adding BW/strength and remaining the same leaness.

In the book keifer shows pretty low values for fats Not even semi close to the 100g or more that some are reccomending./[/quote]
What you say about the book is true. This doesnt however change Kiefer’s current recommendations which I imagine will be updated in any newer versions of the book.

1:1 Protein/Fat is now whats recommended, anyone doing less than this should look to change it if they notice any performance deterioration, trouble gaining muscle or losing fat. [/quote]

Not saying you are wrong, but can you show me where you found this??

I know he suggests the 1:1 ratio for your meals in the low carb portion of the day, and off days. But I haven’t seen him write on ALL days a 1:1 overall ratio for protein and fat. AS in suggesting if I take in 200g of protein I should take in around 200g of fat as well, even on days I back load. [/quote]
Its mostly from podcasts that Ive heard him say this. Considering he see’s no reason to limit fat in the backloading period (sensible amounts obviously) Id imagine this 1:1 ratio is set for every day. You need to be getting your calories in as well.[/quote]

Ok man, look. Going by what I understand as Keifer’s recommendations, my split of about 600g of Carbs (still lower then what Keifer suggests), 200g Protein and 80g Fat on training days puts me at about 3900 kcal, perrt close to the recommended ‘gaining’ equation of BW x 20 = rough estimate of kcals needed to grow.

So your recommendations for gaining at a BW 190, if I ate 600g of carbs a day (less then Keifer recommends for my BW) and then 200g of Protein, along with 200g of fat, I’d be getting in roughly 5000 kcal a day, or around my BW x 26!

He and Naomi on his forums had said you should push carbs as high as you can, as that seems to get the best results. If what you are doing, using lower carbs and higher fats is working for you, then keep it up man. But all I’m saying is that that isn’t how I’ve taken what Keifer’s suggestions are. I’ve listened to his podcasts and am still not sure what you are referring too.

I’m not trying to argue or anything, and I could very easily be wrong. I’d like just to see what you are referring to, because it’s not making sense in the context of what I’ve read from Keifer.

964

Spidey, I want to interject here.

I think Kiefer has mentioned that the tables in his book, in which he mentions how much/what you should eat in the 1st part of the day (on training days), is meant to be a MINIMUM as we all now know!

And he mentions here and there that one doesn’t NEED to worry about fat during the backload.

I think a good way to go about this whole business is to pick a protein amount, divide it roughly in half, and have 1/2 that amount during the low carb part of the day and the other half after training. So, for me, say I decide on roughly 185g protein. I might decide to get, say…75g protein in the first half of the day. Ideally I’d also want to get around 75g fat.

Now, during the backload, you don’t need to go 1:1 pro:fat. But don’t be afraid of fat either, is the point. You don’t have to add fat, but rather don’t run from it. I think if you’re out, and you’re faced with a bacon cheeseburger or a turkey burger, the turkey would be a better option b/c it’s lower in fat. But aside from that, I don’t think Kiefer had any ideas of keeping the backload ultra low fat.

I wanted to ask though…what kinda results have yall had? It seems that backloading is a great way to maintain and recomp. But has anyone actively sought/gotten leaner/bigger using CBL? If so, what has your diet been like, and what kinds of results have you experienced?

Also, is Carb Nite just doing the off days 6 days a week then 1 backload on a hard training day?

965

I thought another point of the low carb day was it to be low calories as well. Its not really low cals if you are pounding down 150g of fat and 150g of pro. Or even 100g of fat and 100g of pro.

A break down of 1:1 fat pro and then high carb on top of that makes no sense unless you need an ass ton of calories. like spidey said that makes an ansine breakdown to be. even 400g carb 200g pro and 200g fat seems like a stpuid breakdown to me. But hey thats me. Its what ever works best for you.

I treat backload time just like a skipload. Low fat high carb and medium pro. I see no reason to have fat high during a backload. I would love to see some scientific proof to back up that higher fat intake during a backload is good. In my mind it makes no sense. Fat slows digestion and will lessen an insulin response. Completely going against what he wants. ALso the fat that you ingest during a backload will hinder GH release much much more than carbs. Read that statment again. Kiefer ssems to miss this. Free fatty acids in the blood hinder GH release much more than glucose (no insulin) and pro has no real affect.

966

[quote]hlss09 wrote:

I wanted to ask though…what kinda results have yall had? It seems that backloading is a great way to maintain and recomp. But has anyone actively sought/gotten leaner/bigger using CBL? If so, what has your diet been like, and what kinds of results have you experienced?

[/quote]

Well i do a lot of things keifer claims to say dont work. Ie low fat/cals relative to what he writes in the book. Low fat and very high carb at night (i do keep my fat low on purpose) and i eat “slow” digesting carbs. Oats, brown rice (i dont really see how slow this is it barely has any fiber in it realtive to the amount of carbs it packs) ect. But i have went from 195 to almost 205 morning dry weight with very little change in waist and large increases in strength in the last 3 months before that i was doing CBL for 1.5months with no real changes in physique. Nothign started happneing until i really pushed carbs up. 400 was my avg before now its 700+. Fat and pro have stayed the same

967

Does anyone know if CBL is beneficial to do for a short period of time and then jump off of the carbloading?
I definitely think the low carbs in the morning idea is good but this many carbs at night is tough for me to pull off.

968

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
Spidey, I want to interject here.

I think Kiefer has mentioned that the tables in his book, in which he mentions how much/what you should eat in the 1st part of the day (on training days), is meant to be a MINIMUM as we all now know!

And he mentions here and there that one doesn’t NEED to worry about fat during the backload.

I think a good way to go about this whole business is to pick a protein amount, divide it roughly in half, and have 1/2 that amount during the low carb part of the day and the other half after training. So, for me, say I decide on roughly 185g protein. I might decide to get, say…75g protein in the first half of the day. Ideally I’d also want to get around 75g fat.

Now, during the backload, you don’t need to go 1:1 pro:fat. But don’t be afraid of fat either, is the point. You don’t have to add fat, but rather don’t run from it. I think if you’re out, and you’re faced with a bacon cheeseburger or a turkey burger, the turkey would be a better option b/c it’s lower in fat. But aside from that, I don’t think Kiefer had any ideas of keeping the backload ultra low fat.

I wanted to ask though…what kinda results have yall had? It seems that backloading is a great way to maintain and recomp. But has anyone actively sought/gotten leaner/bigger using CBL? If so, what has your diet been like, and what kinds of results have you experienced?

Also, is Carb Nite just doing the off days 6 days a week then 1 backload on a hard training day? [/quote]

Yeah I agree here. I don’t avoid fat like the plague or anything. lol This all goes back to IAmMarquos (sp?) post, where Glitch said he needed more fat. All I was saying was that, I think his plan was adequate for Keifer’s guidelines. I don’t really care what people do, I just know CBL is Keifers’ creation, and he’s kind of spread info out randomly so it’s difficult to pull i all together. I just think maybe Glitche misread something, or maybe I missed an important podcast. My only intention is too establish what Keifer suggests, so that we can all then use that as a blueprint to customize this awesome eating plan to our own personal genetics, goals, tastes, ect.

As far as results, I know you already know Hlss, but on CBL I initially lost weight but got a good deal leaner. Recently, I’ve started the SA strategy of CBL, trying to focus on just getting stronger and leaner. The last few weeks I somehow gained about 5lbs, and seemed to have gotten leaner. I notice that my ‘trouble area’ of fat love handles for me has leaned out considerably compared to other diets. I think that has to due with me not spiking my insulin 7 times a day now. lol

969

To Spidey and Ryan. Kiefer does not talk about calories much in the book. Though something I have seen numerous times is him saying that its the Metabolic and Hormonal state this style of eating that makes it effective. Not the amount calories per-say. He’s also mentioned many times that he does best and notices most people are the same when they do not try to remove or reduce fat from the backload.

970

Just wanna say that I love this thread for being a great source of info on CBL.

I do have some questions regarding peri-workout nutrition, however.

  1. As of now, I’m taking in around 50g of whey isolate 15 mins before workout, would this insulin spike before the workout ruins the effects of CBL? I remember Keifer saying something about pre and intra-workout protein is fine.

  2. I know he recommends waiting 30 minutes after workouts before beginning the carbload, but is a protein shake right after the workout fine? I’m taking 25g of whey isolate right after workouts, then backload an hr later (I remember Ryan saying something about withholding carbs for a bit after workouts heightens insulin sensitivity). Have any of you guys try either backloading before 30 minutes or after 30 mins and see any better results from either?

Again, this thread is GREAT.

971

[quote]pndpmt wrote:
Just wanna say that I love this thread for being a great source of info on CBL.

I do have some questions regarding peri-workout nutrition, however.

  1. As of now, I’m taking in around 50g of whey isolate 15 mins before workout, would this insulin spike before the workout ruins the effects of CBL? I remember Keifer saying something about pre and intra-workout protein is fine.

  2. I know he recommends waiting 30 minutes after workouts before beginning the carbload, but is a protein shake right after the workout fine? I’m taking 25g of whey isolate right after workouts, then backload an hr later (I remember Ryan saying something about withholding carbs for a bit after workouts heightens insulin sensitivity). Have any of you guys try either backloading before 30 minutes or after 30 mins and see any better results from either?

Again, this thread is GREAT.[/quote]

He mentions an hour for pwo. At least for the strength accumulation. it’s really not that bad to wait. Just drive home, shower, and that should be pretty close to 45 min to an hour. then eat the PWO stuff. And an hour after that (2 hour pwo) start the backload. At least that’s the formal way he describes it in the book.

972

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
ALso the fat that you ingest during a backload will hinder GH release much much more than carbs. Read that statment again. Kiefer ssems to miss this. Free fatty acids in the blood hinder GH release much more than glucose (no insulin) and pro has no real affect. [/quote]

Ryan,

I’m not trying to call you out here, but do you have any reading on this? I’m interested, and don’t have any textbooks/studies covering this. Thanks bud.

973

[quote]wiggles wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
ALso the fat that you ingest during a backload will hinder GH release much much more than carbs. Read that statment again. Kiefer ssems to miss this. Free fatty acids in the blood hinder GH release much more than glucose (no insulin) and pro has no real affect. [/quote]

Ryan,

I’m not trying to call you out here, but do you have any reading on this? I’m interested, and don’t have any textbooks/studies covering this. Thanks bud.[/quote]

I have read this before in a few scientific journals that were gathered into Nate Miyaki’s book, “The Samurai Diet.” It has similar suggestions to CBL, one of them being to keep fat low at night when eating carbs because of fats inhibition of GH. However, even though carbs do the same, they digest quicker, so I’ve read that your last high carb meal should be around 2-3 hours prior to sleeping - this period of time can actually trigger rebound hypoglycemia which should trigger maximum GH release.

This is all taken from Nate Miyaki’s book “The Samurai Diet”, he back up all of the points he makes in his book with quotes/references from many different peer reviewed scientific journals.
This is based of what I’ve read, so I’m not trying to say I’m right, but it’s definitely in some journals and other books.

974

Jesus!!

Trying to get these backloads in is harder than it looks - trying to hit 500g carbs - a whole pack of noodles and 5 large cookies only hits 300g!! and I cant even finish that yet! haha

decent day overall though, set-up today:

6.30am - HIIT
9am - coffee/cream
10.30am - CBL coffee
1pm - chicken, broccoli, peppers etc
3pm - coffee, caffeine
6.30pm - PWO shake
7.30pm - beef, noodles, veg, 3 large cookies
9.30pm - more carbs

Good thread btw - great resource.

975

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

[quote]pndpmt wrote:
Just wanna say that I love this thread for being a great source of info on CBL.

I do have some questions regarding peri-workout nutrition, however.

  1. As of now, I’m taking in around 50g of whey isolate 15 mins before workout, would this insulin spike before the workout ruins the effects of CBL? I remember Keifer saying something about pre and intra-workout protein is fine.

  2. I know he recommends waiting 30 minutes after workouts before beginning the carbload, but is a protein shake right after the workout fine? I’m taking 25g of whey isolate right after workouts, then backload an hr later (I remember Ryan saying something about withholding carbs for a bit after workouts heightens insulin sensitivity). Have any of you guys try either backloading before 30 minutes or after 30 mins and see any better results from either?

Again, this thread is GREAT.[/quote]

He mentions an hour for pwo. At least for the strength accumulation. it’s really not that bad to wait. Just drive home, shower, and that should be pretty close to 45 min to an hour. then eat the PWO stuff. And an hour after that (2 hour pwo) start the backload. At least that’s the formal way he describes it in the book. [/quote]

I see. What about preWO though? Is the 50g of isolates too much, and should coconut oil be added to this?

976

[quote]pndpmt wrote:
What about preWO though? Is the 50g of isolates too much, and should coconut oil be added to this?[/quote]

What meals are before this? And how far out? I dont bother with any pre-workout supplementation, but I do have a half chicken about 60-90minutes and Coffee with Coconut oil about 30minutes prior to training.

I would add coconut oil preworkout regardless of the rest of your diet/supps just because it gives an awesome kick to your workouts.

977

Kiefer specifically states in the book and multiple podcasts to not eat anything 2 hours before you lift. MCT oil is good as well as 10g of protein to continue the ketosis.

978

[quote]Adam-F wrote:
Jesus!!

Trying to get these backloads in is harder than it looks - trying to hit 500g carbs - a whole pack of noodles and 5 large cookies only hits 300g!! and I cant even finish that yet! haha

decent day overall though, set-up today:

6.30am - HIIT
9am - coffee/cream
10.30am - CBL coffee
1pm - chicken, broccoli, peppers etc
3pm - coffee, caffeine
6.30pm - PWO shake
7.30pm - beef, noodles, veg, 3 large cookies
9.30pm - more carbs

Good thread btw - great resource. [/quote]

Where is the fat in the diet?

979

[quote]pshannon wrote:
Kiefer specifically states in the book and multiple podcasts to not eat anything 2 hours before you lift. MCT oil is good as well as 10g of protein to continue the ketosis. [/quote]
LOL guess I havent been backloading all this time then! I dont remember this bit, will need to re-read. Im only out by 30 minutes or so. I might try changing the time around and see if I notice any difference.

Thanks for that.

980

I have to work from 4-8 in the afternoon. I was researching and found this article seanhyson.com/blog/carb-backloading-book-review

It states to “Wake up, drink coffee, then train. After training, have a small serving of carbs (a scoop of carb powder or two bananas) with protein, and then eat protein and fat foods until the evening. If you trained at seven a.m., begin eating carbs around six p.m. Because your feast is so far removed from the workout, your muscles can?t soak up carbs as effectively, so, unfortunately, you?ll have to be more conservative with your food choices. You can still have a few slices of pizza or a burger with fries, but beyond that, you should stick with sweet potatoes and brown rice. Eat carbs liberally until you go to bed”

Is that true? I plan on lifting around 11 am then eating the carbs at 9 pm/

981

Is the not-eating-for-2-hrs-before-lifting thing geared towards fat loss? I can understand that he wants to not elevate insulin to not blunt fat burning, but what if one solely wants to put on mass though? Won’t the insulin and whey be desirable to drive aminos and proteins to the muscles around workout time?

In the end, I think this is nitpicking and won’t change the main points of CBL much. It’s just that the message that have been sent around here lately is that peri-workout nutrition is important to maximize growth