Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
541

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
I am curious to try CBL but due to time constraints I lift from 5:30 - 7:00.

I have read he suggests you change you schedule. I cant.

The only suggestion i have found is to workout fasted (just coffee/heavy cream) and then spike insulin after the workout (without carbs) using casein hydrolosate/leucine/whey isolate.

Just curious if the book contains any infor on CBL for working out in the mornings.[/quote]

Use leucine and some kind of hydrolyzed casein to spike insulin post wokrout. THen do a solid protein only mean a bit after that. Make it good sized. Then alternated pro/fat and pro only meals until night time. Then do a carbload. I actually posted some research and thoughts on this earlier you will actually end up with heightened insulin sensitivty and responsiveness (hypothetically). So your resutls should be just fine and maybe better because of this.
[/quote]

I dont think Keifer has ever recommended a protein only meal. He generally suggests in the low carb part of the day to eat a 50:50 split of protein:fats in grams. Reason being at no point do you want the body to get used to running off protein as an enegry source.[/quote]

Fat takes a lot of time to digest and there is no reason to keep adding fat in every meal. You do want a time during the day where your body can use some body fat for energy. Why would your body start using Pro for energy? Post workout it will be concerned about protein synthesis which is elevated from the training. So the protien you take is will be used for that. The insulin spike without carbs will also help with that as insulin is a potent activator of protein synthesis. Because of no carbs coming in your body will remain with this heightened state of insulin sensitivty until it gets some carbs. You will also get a bonus of fat burning during the time that the body is deprived of the carbs post workout. So adding in fat when you body could be burning it own fat seems counter productive to adding only lean mass[/quote]
This is a Carb Backloading thread Ryan. Its not that you are totally wrong or your opinions dont matter. Just that for the sake of clarity we are talking about Carb Backloading here. Keifer is pretty smart I wouldnt think tweaking all his ideas is going to produce the same effect. Maybe your version does work better for you but then who’s to say that makes it best for everyone else too? I mean the more I follow Carb Backloading to the letter the better my results get!

Keifer’s mentioned many times in writting/podcasts/interviews that the body will burn fat regardless of high carbs or insulin for a short time PWO. The fact that you just mentioned fat taking hours to digest is relavant here because ingesting them straight after a workout isnt going to blunt fatloss. Protein takes a while to digest too depending on source so you want to make sure you have levels of both fats and protein hitting the blood together. Never protein alone. If you take in Coconut oil pre workout you will be covered here and stand less chance of burning muscle for fuel during/after training.

The insulin sensitivity thing you mention is not such an issue because Carb Backloading is using non-insulin mediated Glucose Transporters (Glut4) to clear blood glucose.

542

Well it actually is carb backloading as written in the book for a morning workout. Again you are peicing things together off of interviews wihtout viewing the book. I already told you earlier in the thread if you wanted to read it you should email you ignored that.

I never said everyone should switch. I am sharing my experineces and research. I suggest you stop taking everything one person says as gospel and start crtically thinking and analyzing. You should be constantly striving to learn more and understand more things. this is an area i am passionate about learning so I read a lot more than most. I already posted the studies that support some this. Why dont you take a bit of time and read them before you flame evertying i say. Also there are others like i said on JM’s website that like the carb backloading just with some tweaks according to research keifer seems to ignore. Kiefer is trying to sell somethign to the most people he can. I would imagine that is a large reason why he advocates such dirty carbs. Everyone wants be able to eat shit and not get fat. But I also saw in an interview shortly after he retraced quite of bit of the neccessity for dirty carbs. So not everyhting is set in stone.

And yes the body will burn some fat shortly after a workout but shortly is the key word. High insulin after that will just impede fat burning and same with glucose in the blood stream.

Why can the body not pull from its own fat stores for energy and use the protein for rebuilding? this would be the best. If you just keep giving it fat to burn for energy it has not reason to tap its own stores.

Glitch PM if you want to continue discussion unless Souix and others dont mind it. I feel bad cluttering up his thread.

543

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
I am curious to try CBL but due to time constraints I lift from 5:30 - 7:00.

I have read he suggests you change you schedule. I cant.

The only suggestion i have found is to workout fasted (just coffee/heavy cream) and then spike insulin after the workout (without carbs) using casein hydrolosate/leucine/whey isolate.

Just curious if the book contains any infor on CBL for working out in the mornings.[/quote]
You can do it but it wouldnt be quite as good. Keifer suggests large doses of caffiene to produce a insulin resistant state. Workout. A small amount of carbs with protein post workout. Eat low carb the rest of the day and then backload your carbs later that night. [/quote]

Thanks for the info.

544

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Well it actually is carb backloading as written in the book for a morning workout. Again you are peicing things together off of interviews wihtout viewing the book. I already told you earlier in the thread if you wanted to read it you should email you ignored that.[/quote]

You mean like this excerpt (from the CBL book) that states you should keep your PWO shake exactly the same as you would working out at a normal time?

“The second effect of training fasted in the morning results from
increased activation of muscular growth factors. By including a
small amount of carbs after early-morning-fasted training, we
double the anabolic response of a regular, pre-fed training session2.
Immediately after the morning training, therefore, things remain
exactly as if training at the ideal time including the carbs: the post
training-formula is identical to normal. Some people prefer solid
food in the early morning and my best suggestion for something
that goes with the morning shake and seems breakfast-like is a very
ripe, large banana with those characteristic brown polkadots.”(pg158)

545

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[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
Even natural pb has sugars in it. But I really do prefer the skippy/jiff stuff. I’ve tried both and I don’t think it’s something I can give up lol[/quote]

This stuff is my favorite and I have tried them all.

546

Oh, yesterday, kept everything below 30g. Did some morning fasted cardio. Woke up another pound lighter to bring me below 240 now.

547

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.

548

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.[/quote]

I’ve noticed this with pizza. I can eat some pastries/lemon bars (which I believe are low fat) and wake up lighter. But something like pizza, even 4 slices and i’ll bloat to 4+ pounds.

549

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.[/quote]

I’ve noticed this with pizza. I can eat some pastries/lemon bars (which I believe are low fat) and wake up lighter. But something like pizza, even 4 slices and i’ll bloat to 4+ pounds. [/quote]

My staples right now are carb powders, french toast, jasmine/sticky white rice, and cereal. Been pretty easy to get in 550g a night with those choices, and not feeling ‘stuffed’. Feels like I’m getting leaner by the day

550

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.[/quote]

I’ve noticed this with pizza. I can eat some pastries/lemon bars (which I believe are low fat) and wake up lighter. But something like pizza, even 4 slices and i’ll bloat to 4+ pounds. [/quote]

My staples right now are carb powders, french toast, jasmine/sticky white rice, and cereal. Been pretty easy to get in 550g a night with those choices, and not feeling ‘stuffed’. Feels like I’m getting leaner by the day[/quote]

Yeah I’m sticking with rice and the dextrose shakes for tonight also. Seemed to help when I put salsa instead of BBQ sauce on the rice also. Must be the HFCS…and I’m putting some PB in my last shake of the day. Seemed to work out ok last time.

551

8:45 wake up
9:00 coffee with cream + stevia - 2g carbs
11:00 4 mile walk
13:00 Fiber shake + joint pills
14:00 3eggs, bacon (too much lol), veggies (which I weighed, turns out it’s 13oz lol, almost 2 pounds of these a day on off days) cheese (2.5oz)- 6g carbs

15:30 GYM

Seated Calf raise: 3pltx10, 3pltx10, 3pltx10, 3pltx10, 3pltx10
ss
Seated toe press: 2pltx10, 2.25pltx10, 2.25pltx10, 2.25pltx10, 2.25pltx10 (each side)

ALL bicep movements used Grip4orce

Seated DB curl: 40x6, 40x6, 40x6

Ez preacher curls: 30x12, 30x12, 40x9/3

EZ reverse curls: 20x10/10, 20x10/10, 20x10/10

BB curls (20sec rest between sets) 65x10, 65x8, 65x6

Rope pushdowns: #6pltx25, #6pltx25, #6pltx25, #6pltx25

Dips between benches: 45x20, 45x20, 45x20, 45x20

Close grip bench/JM press: 75x8, 95x8, 115x8, 125x8

PWO shake: 3 scoops powder, 50g dextrose - 60g carbs
19:20 16oz rice, 7oz chicken, bacon, salsa - 100g carbs
20:00 Shake with 12oz milk, 4tbs pb, 3 scoops powder, 25g dextrose - 75g carbs

TOTAL: 243

552

To those following the backload protocol, what time of the day do you usually train?

553

[quote]gkeeper24 wrote:
To those following the backload protocol, what time of the day do you usually train?[/quote]

You can train anytime, but the ideal window is to start the workout between 3-5pm

554

7:00 wake up
10:30 2 eggs, 4 sausage, small bit of cottage cheese, couple coffees - 5g carbs
14:00 Protein shake - 6g carbs
19:00 3 eggs, veggies, 3oz cheese - 6g carbs
20:30 protein shake w 2tbs pb - 11g carbs

TOTAL: 28g carbs

555

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
7:00 wake up
10:30 2 eggs, 4 sausage, small bit of cottage cheese, couple coffees - 5g carbs
14:00 Protein shake - 6g carbs
19:00 3 eggs, veggies, 3oz cheese - 6g carbs
20:30 protein shake w 2tbs pb - 11g carbs

TOTAL: 28g carbs[/quote]

Do you feel like you are getting enough protein on your off days?

556

[quote]krzycase wrote:

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
7:00 wake up
10:30 2 eggs, 4 sausage, small bit of cottage cheese, couple coffees - 5g carbs
14:00 Protein shake - 6g carbs
19:00 3 eggs, veggies, 3oz cheese - 6g carbs
20:30 protein shake w 2tbs pb - 11g carbs

TOTAL: 28g carbs[/quote]

Do you feel like you are getting enough protein on your off days?[/quote]

I have no idea lol. I don’t count my protein. I was out of chicken though, so I’d usually have the eggs in the morning and 8-10oz chicken in the afternoon.

557

[quote]gkeeper24 wrote:
To those following the backload protocol, what time of the day do you usually train?[/quote]
I train straight after work at 5:15pm. Usually finished about 6:30 or so. Except Sundays where I will train from about 3-4.

558

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Well it actually is carb backloading as written in the book for a morning workout. Again you are peicing things together off of interviews wihtout viewing the book. I already told you earlier in the thread if you wanted to read it you should email you ignored that.[/quote]

Ryan. Sorry if I made you feel like I was flaming you. I have the book now and have read through it a few times.

I appreciate that you are very interested in the science behind this stuff. I guess Im coming from a place of a bit more experience. My experience has taught me thus far that learning every little thing amounts to little more in physique/health than wasted time. I have learned enough at this point to know that if you half ass someones program you get half the results. I read a lot as well and like you am still interested in the science. But I also know that there are much, much smarter people out there who have done all this before and stay current. Id rather read what they have to say and make my deductions from there.

Agreed entirely. I still think “Dirty” has to be clarified. If your definition of dirty is any high carb source with ample fats then I dont think thats worth worrying about. If by dirty you mean that HFCS ladden Soft Drinks and Transfat bedeviled Burgers then I agree these should be avoided as much as possible. A baked potatoe with butter could be considered dirty in the former context. But any health detriment would be negligable.

I only mentioned this in regards to the poster who asked if you could backload when training in the mornings. The fat burning from the workout would not be impeded by a short sharp insulin spike from his PWO shake at this time. Yet the benefits of anabolism and halting catabolic processed would be high. After that shake he would be returning to low carb for the rest of the day until backloading at night. So fat loss would still be high. Just not as high as backloading at an optimal time.

[quote]
Why can the body not pull from its own fat stores for energy and use the protein for rebuilding? this would be the best. If you just keep giving it fat to burn for energy it has not reason to tap its own stores.[/quote]

I think we are both speculating on this point so not sure how much worth my reply will be. My hypothesis is that muscle growth is spurred largely by hormonal processes that are both stimulated and supported by exogenic energy sources. Food in other words. After a workout the body is primarily concerned with returning to homeostasis, not building new muscle. Without the Dietary influence Id surmise that fat would be burned for fuel and muscle protein breakdown would be partially reincorporated into the maintenance (not net growth obviously) of damaged muscles. With protein as a source Id imagine refueling muscles is a greater priority than building muscles without the energy to support them. Im pretty sure that Gluconeogenesis is much easier for the body to accomplish with protein (stored or exogenic) than with bodyfat.

559

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.[/quote]

I’ve noticed this with pizza. I can eat some pastries/lemon bars (which I believe are low fat) and wake up lighter. But something like pizza, even 4 slices and i’ll bloat to 4+ pounds. [/quote]
Curious as to whether you think this bloat is water or fat? Does it come off after a low carb day? Bloating could be from things other than the levels of fat in the pizza. bread/sodium etc.

560

[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

[quote]ds1973 wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

Soiux i know you like dem dirty carbs and this is from my own observations and research on other sites and what not. But high fat during my carb loads makes me gain fat. No fat or low fat during my carb loads allows me to eat even more carbs and not gain any fat.
[/quote] (edited for length & to fix curing to during)

This also corresponds to the science Lyle McDonalds cites indicating that dietary fat is stored as fat. So, on CBL days post WO, you’ll be in a calorie surplus and dietary fat will be stored as fat. The next day, a deficit rest day, you can only burn so much fat, so it pays to keep the fat low - close to what you’ll be burning the next day.[/quote]

I’ve noticed this with pizza. I can eat some pastries/lemon bars (which I believe are low fat) and wake up lighter. But something like pizza, even 4 slices and i’ll bloat to 4+ pounds. [/quote]
Curious as to whether you think this bloat is water or fat? Does it come off after a low carb day? Bloating could be from things other than the levels of fat in the pizza. bread/sodium etc.[/quote]

It usually takes quite a few days to go away. I’m having spaghetti tonight since it’s a leg day. I’ll keep ya posted about these carbs.