I wish i could quoate some of the graphs and such that i am reading but the moderator of the site forbids it. But basically he has a graph that shows the response to Hi GI carbs vs Low GI. THe high Gi carbs do what you say spike insulin hi and reduce BS very fast but you can then drop BS too far so that glucagon becomes active and will release BS which then will cause isulin to become active again quite a bit after the carbs were eaten this can actually end up hindering fat loss as the insulin rebound will hinder fat loss. Not saying that happens with a backload because with the large size of the meal and the high amount of other nutrients fats from some of the foods (ie the junkier carbs normally bring along a lot of fat or at least some) and also most of us are consuming protien as well, the gastric emptying and absorption of glucose will be slow enough not actually spike insulin high enough to cause this rebound. Also there will be a very long release of glucose into the blood as the body continues to absorb and digest the food.
Also the problem with keifer saying he wants insulin low to not affect GH release is wrong according to every source i have seen. Fatty acids in the blood inhibit it the most. Then blood glucose will inhibit it also but to a much lesser extent. So again the carbs that he advocates (cherry turnovers stick in my mind as one of his favorites) kinda go against his own logic lol.
To reiterate i love this form of eating and many are seeing great results with how he wrote the book but I am just presenting info i have come across that may help make things even better if one wanted to play with certain variables. Also many people may be getting good fat loss resutls but i would love to see someone who actually packed on some muscle using this. I think many are just not able to put down the amount of carbs needed that is why fat loss is so good with this. 300g of carbs for many will have them stuffed. 300g really isnt that many IMO
Souix: I understand. Looking for more recomp. Sorry i misunterstood for so long i was under the impression you wanted to gain.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I wish i could quoate some of the graphs and such that i am reading but the moderator of the site forbids it. But basically he has a graph that shows the response to Hi GI carbs vs Low GI. THe high Gi carbs do what you say spike insulin hi and reduce BS very fast but you can then drop BS too far so that glucagon becomes active and will release BS which then will cause isulin to become active again quite a bit after the carbs were eaten this can actually end up hindering fat loss as the insulin rebound will hinder fat loss. Not saying that happens with a backload because with the large size of the meal and the high amount of other nutrients fats from some of the foods (ie the junkier carbs normally bring along a lot of fat or at least some) and also most of us are consuming protien as well, the gastric emptying and absorption of glucose will be slow enough not actually spike insulin high enough to cause this rebound. Also there will be a very long release of glucose into the blood as the body continues to absorb and digest the food.
Also the problem with keifer saying he wants insulin low to not affect GH release is wrong according to every source i have seen. Fatty acids in the blood inhibit it the most. Then blood glucose will inhibit it also but to a much lesser extent. So again the carbs that he advocates (cherry turnovers stick in my mind as one of his favorites) kinda go against his own logic lol.
To reiterate i love this form of eating and many are seeing great results with how he wrote the book but I am just presenting info i have come across that may help make things even better if one wanted to play with certain variables. Also many people may be getting good fat loss resutls but i would love to see someone who actually packed on some muscle using this. I think many are just not able to put down the amount of carbs needed that is why fat loss is so good with this. 300g of carbs for many will have them stuffed. 300g really isnt that many IMO
Souix: I understand. Looking for more recomp. Sorry i misunterstood for so long i was under the impression you wanted to gain.[/quote]
I have lost a bit of weight and I think it is due to the lack of carbs. 3-400g is easy, I have a hard time getting around 800g. Mainly because I become physically full, but the stomach can stretch and I keep pushing the limits. Hopefully I can get up to eating close to 800g a night with no problem. I realize 800 in sugar may be easy, but with rice it is a different story.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Keep us posted on how that goes for you? How big are you? And your looking to gain correct?[/quote]
The summer will be a true test, that is when long days of hard labor work start. I am currently 6ft at around 225 and gaining is the primary goal. I have noticed a definite difference in the gym thus far, I can use more weight for more reps now. My roommate and I recorded all of our measurements to see where we can get this summer so that will be a progress marker. I use to record food and then stopped for some stupid reason, I’ll start that up again. I find writing things down really forces the execution of reaching the numbers, 7-800g of carbs in this case.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Keep us posted on how that goes for you? How big are you? And your looking to gain correct?[/quote]
The summer will be a true test, that is when long days of hard labor work start. I am currently 6ft at around 225 and gaining is the primary goal. I have noticed a definite difference in the gym thus far, I can use more weight for more reps now. My roommate and I recorded all of our measurements to see where we can get this summer so that will be a progress marker. I use to record food and then stopped for some stupid reason, I’ll start that up again. I find writing things down really forces the execution of reaching the numbers, 7-800g of carbs in this case. [/quote]
Why not increase fat intake in your pre-workout meals for the calories?
my update if Sioux doesnt mind! (: Still getting continued fatloss after switching Low GI muesli out for High GI Icecream. Levels of fat probably higher in icecream even, but extra calories dont seem to be affecting fatloss.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Keep us posted on how that goes for you? How big are you? And your looking to gain correct?[/quote]
The summer will be a true test, that is when long days of hard labor work start. I am currently 6ft at around 225 and gaining is the primary goal. I have noticed a definite difference in the gym thus far, I can use more weight for more reps now. My roommate and I recorded all of our measurements to see where we can get this summer so that will be a progress marker. I use to record food and then stopped for some stupid reason, I’ll start that up again. I find writing things down really forces the execution of reaching the numbers, 7-800g of carbs in this case. [/quote]
Why not increase fat intake in your pre-workout meals for the calories?[/quote]
SOP: when you get that diet journal going I would be interested in hearing your macros and the schedule that you take them in at.
Glitch: isnt the whole point of backloading to be able to insane amounts of carbs and gain lean weight. Using the tables someone at 225 should be hitting around those (thats just a guess not knowing what SOP lost on his prep phase). But fats could be added during the day but it was my understanding from what the book broke the macros down for the day that this was a high carb/medium pro/low fat diet. On off days the carb and fat switch.
Also glitch do you follow what macros and cals you hit eat day?
Sorry for all the hijacks Souix. You have the only thread on CBL though might as well keep all the info in one spot?
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Keep us posted on how that goes for you? How big are you? And your looking to gain correct?[/quote]
The summer will be a true test, that is when long days of hard labor work start. I am currently 6ft at around 225 and gaining is the primary goal. I have noticed a definite difference in the gym thus far, I can use more weight for more reps now. My roommate and I recorded all of our measurements to see where we can get this summer so that will be a progress marker. I use to record food and then stopped for some stupid reason, I’ll start that up again. I find writing things down really forces the execution of reaching the numbers, 7-800g of carbs in this case. [/quote]
Why not increase fat intake in your pre-workout meals for the calories?[/quote]
SOP: when you get that diet journal going I would be interested in hearing your macros and the schedule that you take them in at.
Glitch: isnt the whole point of backloading to be able to insane amounts of carbs and gain lean weight. Using the tables someone at 225 should be hitting around those (thats just a guess not knowing what SOP lost on his prep phase). But fats could be added during the day but it was my understanding from what the book broke the macros down for the day that this was a high carb/medium pro/low fat diet. On off days the carb and fat switch.
Also glitch do you follow what macros and cals you hit eat day?[/quote]
I dont think the high carb/medium pro/low fat diet is an appropriate way of looking at it as all those variables are not fixed. I dont see why someone who has trouble putting away 800grams of carbs after workouts shouldnt add fats preworkout and on off days (plus more carbs on off days when gaining)
Yes I do keep track of my macro’s. Not super anally but if you asked me what I ate on any given day I could tell you because my diet is pretty structured. I just vary amounts of certain foods to add or substract calories. At the momment Im sitting around maintainence levels of calories and not looking to drop any lower. I will add more soon as Im not far off my desired leanness and wish to get back to gaining.
A typical workout day looks to be around 350g carb, 230g protein and about 120g fat, plus incidentals. So 3400cals roughly 4x a week. Off days 50-100g carbs, 170g protein and about 110g fat, plus incidentals including BCAAs. 2070 calories roughly 3x a week. 2830 calories a day average, which when I check something like the IF calculator (just did as was curious) is about normal maintainence for my stats.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Keep us posted on how that goes for you? How big are you? And your looking to gain correct?[/quote]
The summer will be a true test, that is when long days of hard labor work start. I am currently 6ft at around 225 and gaining is the primary goal. I have noticed a definite difference in the gym thus far, I can use more weight for more reps now. My roommate and I recorded all of our measurements to see where we can get this summer so that will be a progress marker. I use to record food and then stopped for some stupid reason, I’ll start that up again. I find writing things down really forces the execution of reaching the numbers, 7-800g of carbs in this case. [/quote]
Why not increase fat intake in your pre-workout meals for the calories?[/quote]
SOP: when you get that diet journal going I would be interested in hearing your macros and the schedule that you take them in at.
Glitch: isnt the whole point of backloading to be able to insane amounts of carbs and gain lean weight. Using the tables someone at 225 should be hitting around those (thats just a guess not knowing what SOP lost on his prep phase). But fats could be added during the day but it was my understanding from what the book broke the macros down for the day that this was a high carb/medium pro/low fat diet. On off days the carb and fat switch.
Also glitch do you follow what macros and cals you hit eat day?
Sorry for all the hijacks Souix. You have the only thread on CBL though might as well keep all the info in one spot?[/quote]
I deflated something awful during the prep phase, somewhere around 10lbs, so 800 is where I am going to get and see how that feels. Fat is ridiculously low, looking at the book 40g for 225. I might bump that up a bit. I find protein to be easy enough to get by the book’s standards, but lets say 250g. That will put me at 4500cals/day. Do these numbers sound ok?
[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I deflated something awful during the prep phase, somewhere around 10lbs, so 800 is where I am going to get and see how that feels. Fat is ridiculously low, looking at the book 40g for 225. I might bump that up a bit. I find protein to be easy enough to get by the book’s standards, but lets say 250g. That will put me at 4500cals/day. Do these numbers sound ok?
[/quote]
40grams of fat! man I feel sorry for your endocrine system. You need to at least double or triple that! Where is this Paltry 40grams coming from?
Add a TBsp Coconut Oil to your morning coffee and pre workout. Full fat Cream to your morning coffee too if you wish to gain. If you are not doing so already.
[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I deflated something awful during the prep phase, somewhere around 10lbs, so 800 is where I am going to get and see how that feels. Fat is ridiculously low, looking at the book 40g for 225. I might bump that up a bit. I find protein to be easy enough to get by the book’s standards, but lets say 250g. That will put me at 4500cals/day. Do these numbers sound ok?
[/quote]
40grams of fat! man I feel sorry for your endocrine system. You need to at least double or triple that! Where is this Paltry 40grams coming from?
Add a TBsp Coconut Oil to your morning coffee and pre workout. Full fat Cream to your morning coffee too if you wish to gain. If you are not doing so already. [/quote]
That’s what the book says. I get the coconut oil, nut butter, olive oil, and fish oil. I will take in more considering 100g of fat would be low in comparison to 800g of carbs, isn’t it?
Edit: Wait a second. I get more than 40g of fat now. Probably closer to 80g considering 1 Tbsp is 14g and I eat a few of those in the hours pre workout. Plus nut butters, fish oil and olive oil with food.
40grams of fat! man I feel sorry for your endocrine system. You need to at least double or triple that! Where is this Paltry 40grams coming from?
Add a TBsp Coconut Oil to your morning coffee and pre workout. Full fat Cream to your morning coffee too if you wish to gain. If you are not doing so already. [/quote]
That’s what the book says. I get the coconut oil, nut butter, olive oil, and fish oil. I will take in more considering 100g of fat would be low in comparison to 800g of carbs, isn’t it?[/quote]
I havent read the book but I assume/hope this is just for the induction phase? Keifers a smart cookie I cant see him recommending anyone to be that low especially when gaining.
40grams of fat! man I feel sorry for your endocrine system. You need to at least double or triple that! Where is this Paltry 40grams coming from?
Add a TBsp Coconut Oil to your morning coffee and pre workout. Full fat Cream to your morning coffee too if you wish to gain. If you are not doing so already. [/quote]
That’s what the book says. I get the coconut oil, nut butter, olive oil, and fish oil. I will take in more considering 100g of fat would be low in comparison to 800g of carbs, isn’t it?[/quote]
I havent read the book but I assume/hope this is just for the induction phase? Keifers a smart cookie I cant see him recommending anyone to be that low especially when gaining.[/quote]
I edited my post above. And yea, he has a chart with approximate macros. They are “starting points” though.
Holy shit this is gettin lots of action lol. Ryan I like the science behind your posts, good stuff. And I do eventually want to be all big and swole, just not covered in fat too lol.
[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I deflated something awful during the prep phase, somewhere around 10lbs, so 800 is where I am going to get and see how that feels. Fat is ridiculously low, looking at the book 40g for 225. I might bump that up a bit. I find protein to be easy enough to get by the book’s standards, but lets say 250g. That will put me at 4500cals/day. Do these numbers sound ok?
[/quote]
40grams of fat! man I feel sorry for your endocrine system. You need to at least double or triple that! Where is this Paltry 40grams coming from?
Add a TBsp Coconut Oil to your morning coffee and pre workout. Full fat Cream to your morning coffee too if you wish to gain. If you are not doing so already. [/quote]
Please state why you need double or triple?
I undertand fat is used for cell membrane and hormones ect. but when you get good fats. EFAs. and cover those bases you only need to cover enough for energy needs unless you are getting carb which are also an energy source. NO need for high fat and high carbs. IMO. Get your EFAs and you are good to go. If you run better with more carbs do that or if you if you do better with more fat do that. Will reply more later Busy now
[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I edited my post above. And yea, he has a chart with approximate macros. They are “starting points” though.[/quote]
Alright. That looks better. However I would still up calories on both Fats and Carbs evenly. I know your after mass gain but your body is only going to be adding a small amount of muscle and that new muscle can only store a small amount of those extra carbs. Doesnt make much sense if for example you need 400grams at 200lbs but 800grams at 220lbs. Yeah yeah, I know you need calories to grow, but I think too many carbs is going to be detrimental. I would add fats for calories to my first half of the day and on off days. Bump carbs up a little at the end of off days and add more to post workout.
My 2 cents. This is what Ill be doing shortly. Would be great if you could guinea pig it for me! (-;
[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
I edited my post above. And yea, he has a chart with approximate macros. They are “starting points” though.[/quote]
Alright. That looks better. However I would still up calories on both Fats and Carbs evenly. I know your after mass gain but your body is only going to be adding a small amount of muscle and that new muscle can only store a small amount of those extra carbs. Doesnt make much sense if for example you need 400grams at 200lbs but 800grams at 220lbs. Yeah yeah, I know you need calories to grow, but I think too many carbs is going to be detrimental. I would add fats for calories to my first half of the day and on off days. Bump carbs up a little at the end of off days and add more to post workout.
My 2 cents. This is what Ill be doing shortly. Would be great if you could guinea pig it for me! (-; [/quote]
The chart for desired weight for a 200lb male is 810g of carbs. There is also a chart to gauge carb needs based on weight lost during the prep phase, around 10lbs loss is 900g of carbs.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Please state why you need double or triple?
I undertand fat is used for cell membrane and hormones ect. but when you get good fats. EFAs. and cover those bases you only need to cover enough for energy needs unless you are getting carb which are also an energy source. NO need for high fat and high carbs. IMO. Get your EFAs and you are good to go. If you run better with more carbs do that or if you if you do better with more fat do that. Will reply more later Busy now[/quote]
Well you do want to optimise your hormones dont you? So at no point would you want your endocrine system to be running without enough fat to work optimally. There is also the issue of the health effects of too many carbs. Despite the timing of carbs with CBL you will still be producing a metric shit ton of insulin at those higher limits and your muscle mass would not have increased to the level where it requires that high level of carbs.
You also would prefer to stay “fat adapted” even when gaining so as to keep enzymes ticking along and readily able to assist in body fat burning. This means fat should be a major fuel source not just a “bases covered” after thought. I think someone like MODOK could better explain the science of these things.
A lot of this is hersay, personal opinion/experience and input from the Interwebz. I would be happy to read something from Keifer about this if he has any Theories on it. Maybe it really does make no difference. Personally I would just find it more possible to bulk with the necessary calories if I made more use of Fats.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Please state why you need double or triple?
I undertand fat is used for cell membrane and hormones ect. but when you get good fats. EFAs. and cover those bases you only need to cover enough for energy needs unless you are getting carb which are also an energy source. NO need for high fat and high carbs. IMO. Get your EFAs and you are good to go. If you run better with more carbs do that or if you if you do better with more fat do that. Will reply more later Busy now[/quote]
Well you do want to optimise your hormones dont you? So at no point would you want your endocrine system to be running without enough fat to work optimally. There is also the issue of the health effects of too many carbs. Despite the timing of carbs with CBL you will still be producing a metric shit ton of insulin at those higher limits and your muscle mass would not have increased to the level where it requires that high level of carbs.
You also would prefer to stay “fat adapted” even when gaining so as to keep enzymes ticking along and readily able to assist in body fat burning. This means fat should be a major fuel source not just a “bases covered” after thought. I think someone like MODOK could better explain the science of these things.
A lot of this is hersay, personal opinion/experience and input from the Interwebz. I would be happy to read something from Keifer about this if he has any Theories on it. Maybe it really does make no difference. Personally I would just find it more possible to bulk with the necessary calories if I made more use of Fats.[/quote]
I’m certainly not very muscular in terms of bodyweight…but, I’ve been able to tolerate 500g of carbs approx. 4 days a week. With fat just at the threshold that Ryan is talking about…i.e. like 0.45g/lb of bw.
I was reluctant to take carbs that high until I realized…you are actually less likely to store bodyfat in a surplus made up of mainly carbs/protein…than a surplus made up of mainly fat/protein. Just looking at it from a basic, logical perspective…carbs need to be converted (DNL) to become and be stored as fatty acids. Fat…is already there and ready to be stored…so in surplus, dietary fat intake will be stored as such after the fact of your EFA needs for hormonal functioning/physiological needs etc. Sure…carbs raise insulin and may BLUNT the usage of fatty acids for energy…hence the need to keep my dietary fat on the lower end of the spectrum on the days that my carbs are that high…
I don’t know where this “I don’t tolerate carbs well…so I eat tons of fat in surplus” comes from…it doesn’t make physiological sense. Think about the above statement and deduce it logically.