Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
441

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Lykos wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I have another question concerning CBL. I’ve been drinking a Gatorade/Whey mix shake starting midway through my workout (after first heavy exercise and then secondary lift), just out of habit. I know Keifer advocates POST-Workout Carbs, is there a chance the intra-workout carbs could be hurting my results?? [/quote]

When it comes to Keifer recommendations regarding peri-workout nutrition I would honestly take it with a grain of salt. It’s not his field of expertise nor does he have the experience to justify such claims. John Berardi on the other is defiantly the go to guy.

*EDIT not saying hes wrong lol just saying because hes had fairly good success with CBL doesn’t mean hes a recovery guru. [/quote]

Well I figured that the extra carbs mid-workout help me get through it all, and for whenever i concentrate on fat loss it would be easy to just drop it. I basically just drink it to improve performance, but didn’t know if it was detrimental to the diet all too much.[/quote]

In one of the interviews on his website he says that pre and peri workout nutrition are fine.[/quote]

Yeah, but from looking around now, it seems he doesn’t want Carbs in those protocols. He likes MCT’s, Caffeine, Creatine, and Whey peri-workout, but not carbs. Looks like I may just shift the Gatorade/Whey shake to after the workout.

442

If I understand correctly, carb backloading is purposefully done when you are NOT sensitive to insulin. I think you probably missed the whole point of back loading in your extensive reading.

443

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Lykos wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I have another question concerning CBL. I’ve been drinking a Gatorade/Whey mix shake starting midway through my workout (after first heavy exercise and then secondary lift), just out of habit. I know Keifer advocates POST-Workout Carbs, is there a chance the intra-workout carbs could be hurting my results?? [/quote]

When it comes to Keifer recommendations regarding peri-workout nutrition I would honestly take it with a grain of salt. It’s not his field of expertise nor does he have the experience to justify such claims. John Berardi on the other is defiantly the go to guy.

*EDIT not saying hes wrong lol just saying because hes had fairly good success with CBL doesn’t mean hes a recovery guru. [/quote]

Well I figured that the extra carbs mid-workout help me get through it all, and for whenever i concentrate on fat loss it would be easy to just drop it. I basically just drink it to improve performance, but didn’t know if it was detrimental to the diet all too much.[/quote]

In one of the interviews on his website he says that pre and peri workout nutrition are fine.[/quote]

Yeah, but from looking around now, it seems he doesn’t want Carbs in those protocols. He likes MCT’s, Caffeine, Creatine, and Whey peri-workout, but not carbs. Looks like I may just shift the Gatorade/Whey shake to after the workout. [/quote]

He says carbs are fine in the interview because the guy he is talking to has long workouts.

444

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]Lykos wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I have another question concerning CBL. I’ve been drinking a Gatorade/Whey mix shake starting midway through my workout (after first heavy exercise and then secondary lift), just out of habit. I know Keifer advocates POST-Workout Carbs, is there a chance the intra-workout carbs could be hurting my results?? [/quote]

When it comes to Keifer recommendations regarding peri-workout nutrition I would honestly take it with a grain of salt. It’s not his field of expertise nor does he have the experience to justify such claims. John Berardi on the other is defiantly the go to guy.

*EDIT not saying hes wrong lol just saying because hes had fairly good success with CBL doesn’t mean hes a recovery guru. [/quote]

Well I figured that the extra carbs mid-workout help me get through it all, and for whenever i concentrate on fat loss it would be easy to just drop it. I basically just drink it to improve performance, but didn’t know if it was detrimental to the diet all too much.[/quote]

In one of the interviews on his website he says that pre and peri workout nutrition are fine.[/quote]

Yeah, but from looking around now, it seems he doesn’t want Carbs in those protocols. He likes MCT’s, Caffeine, Creatine, and Whey peri-workout, but not carbs. Looks like I may just shift the Gatorade/Whey shake to after the workout. [/quote]

He says carbs are fine in the interview because the guy he is talking to has long workouts.[/quote]

Ohh alright I see what you are talking about now. He talks about Strongman training as well, needing carbs for long workouts. But the interviewer spends up to 2+ hours in the gym he says. I’m in and out by 45-60 mins. Probably not as applicable to me. Thanks for pointing me towards that interview though. It was helpful for a lot of other questions I had.

445

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Going to try something different, putting all those fats I was eating on training days on Off days, and bumping up my carbs drastically on training days, to see if I can REALLY get some effective results from CBL.

Training Days: 135g F, 520g C, 230g P

Off Days: 160g F, 150g C, 230g P

Kind of hesitant, as I’ve never been crazy carb-tolerant, but so fat CBL as been wonderful for me, and so I have faith taking it one step further will simply amplify the results. I’ll try this out for th month of April, and evaluate results from there. [/quote]

If I recall Kiefer recommends 1:1 Protein/Fat grams - or at least Naomi said something about it on the forums. So if you’re getting 230g protein you’d have 230 fat too.[/quote]

230g of fats? I thought it was at least a 1:1 in calories, not grams. Well I guess I’m going to up my VCO and EVOO consumption. Curious LM, how many grams of fat do you get on off days, and what foods do you use to get it??
[/quote]

Whole eggs, red meat, peanut butter, avocado, would be my main sources of fat. My fat intake isn’t quite where it needs to be but I was running more of a carb nite the last 2 weeks as I was prepping for my meet and needed to make weight. I have 8 weeks until nationals so I’ll probably be running a carb nite/CBL combo where instead of one weekly carb up I’ll go with 2 nightly back loads after my squat and deadlift sessions. Trying to bring my hard weight slightly down a bit as this last drop sucked big time (21 lbs in 16 hours).

446

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
From reading on a fairly knowledgable board it seems keifer really messed up when he says that the carbs need to be eaten right after a workout. Its actually been shown in studies that with holding the carbs for up to 36hrs will increase the isulin sensitivity and responsiveness quite a bit compared to if carbs are eaten shorty after exercise. If carbs are withheld the body will actually supercompensate the glycogen stores much better.

Just thought i would share.[/quote]

What’s this about? No update yesterday, but you guys probably don’t wanna know. It was easter. Woof. My weight was creeping up, so I’m doing to start a small prep phase tomorrow and run it till the end of the week.

447

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If I understand correctly, carb backloading is purposefully done when you are NOT sensitive to insulin. I think you probably missed the whole point of back loading in your extensive reading.[/quote]

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.

448

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:

What’s this about? No update yesterday, but you guys probably don’t wanna know. It was easter. Woof. My weight was creeping up, so I’m doing to start a small prep phase tomorrow and run it till the end of the week. [/quote]

I thought you wanted to gain weight so isnt that good? Maybe i have been misunderstanding your goals. At least you enjoyed eater. No sense depriving your self of the tasteys that come along with the holidays. You only live once

449

Can anyone tell me if carb powders (malto/dextrose) are admissable as main carb sources?

450

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If I understand correctly, carb backloading is purposefully done when you are NOT sensitive to insulin. I think you probably missed the whole point of back loading in your extensive reading.[/quote]

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.[/quote]

Carbs are to replenish glycogyn quickly after workout, not to peak insulin? I don’t think the insulin spike with the carbs is the point.

451

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If I understand correctly, carb backloading is purposefully done when you are NOT sensitive to insulin. I think you probably missed the whole point of back loading in your extensive reading.[/quote]

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.[/quote]

Carbs are to replenish glycogyn quickly after workout, not to peak insulin? I don’t think the insulin spike with the carbs is the point. [/quote]

So then why does he talk about trying use leucine and fast acting carbs and hydrolzyed whey or casein to increase the insulin spike?

Also why do you need to replenish glycogen fast if you are not doing another workout right away? All you need to do is refill glycogen sometime before the next workout.

452

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If I understand correctly, carb backloading is purposefully done when you are NOT sensitive to insulin. I think you probably missed the whole point of back loading in your extensive reading.[/quote]

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.[/quote]

Carbs are to replenish glycogyn quickly after workout, not to peak insulin? I don’t think the insulin spike with the carbs is the point. [/quote]

So then why does he talk about trying use leucine and fast acting carbs and hydrolzyed whey or casein to increase the insulin spike?

Also why do you need to replenish glycogen fast if you are not doing another workout right away? All you need to do is refill glycogen sometime before the next workout.

[/quote]

Someone who’s actually read the book should probably chime in. But you are doing it right after because that’s the time muscle will suck up the glycogen (and fat won’t), which is kinda the whole point.

453

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.[/quote]

Carbs are to replenish glycogyn quickly after workout, not to peak insulin? I don’t think the insulin spike with the carbs is the point. [/quote]

So then why does he talk about trying use leucine and fast acting carbs and hydrolzyed whey or casein to increase the insulin spike?

Also why do you need to replenish glycogen fast if you are not doing another workout right away? All you need to do is refill glycogen sometime before the next workout.

[/quote]

Someone who’s actually read the book should probably chime in. But you are doing it right after because that’s the time muscle will suck up the glycogen (and fat won’t), which is kinda the whole point.[/quote]

I did read the book. I have it on my computer. Did you read the large paragraph i wrote above? The muscle will still suck up the glucose (not glycogen) and create glycogen even if you do not take it in right away. The muscle will actually do better using glucose if you with hold it and take it in upwards of 36hrs post training. The longer the better. You just need the carbs before your next bout of weight training. Re read what i wrote in the first reply. I am not being mean i just dont think you understood what i wrote.

Also you forgot or did not want to respond the reason he advocates so strongly for the highly exaggerated attempt to raise insulin even though i believe we are both in agreement according to his plan both fat and muscle are in a fairly insulin resistant state. But the muscle has GLUT 4 on the surface because of insulin independent actions.

454

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

I assume this was directed at me.

So here is my understanding correct me if you feel your understanding was different. My understanding was to create an environment where fat cells are not sensitive and even the muscles are not sensitive to insulin by waiting until the evening and using caffeine to create and insulin resistant environment. Then you workout to create GLUT 4 insulin INDEPENDENT translocation. This means the muscles will suck up the glucose from the carbs while starving the fat cells of glucose.

Now my problem or question that goes with this if the above is indeed true why are the hi gi carbs reccomended for this as no tissue is going to respond to the elevated insulin. To me that looks like elevating insulin just to elevate insulin. I am not saying that insulin does not have other anabolic activities besides transporting glucose/aminios into cells.

So that is my understanding and one of the problems that i have in what has been in the book.

Now the part that i wrote if you understand the physiology behind (or maybe my understanding is off, feel free to chime in with opinions) it would actually create a much better backload. You would still be getting the fat cells in an insulin resistant state because you are eating carbs at night. But in this case your muscles will be sensitive and responsive (those terms have two separate meanings) to insulin which, in my mind would allow your muscles to actually suck up and store the carbs better. This happens because the longer you hold off carb intake after heavy resistance training the more and more sensitive and responsive the muscles become to insulin.[/quote]

Carbs are to replenish glycogyn quickly after workout, not to peak insulin? I don’t think the insulin spike with the carbs is the point. [/quote]

So then why does he talk about trying use leucine and fast acting carbs and hydrolzyed whey or casein to increase the insulin spike?

Also why do you need to replenish glycogen fast if you are not doing another workout right away? All you need to do is refill glycogen sometime before the next workout.

[/quote]

Someone who’s actually read the book should probably chime in. But you are doing it right after because that’s the time muscle will suck up the glycogen (and fat won’t), which is kinda the whole point.[/quote]

I did read the book. I have it on my computer. Did you read the large paragraph i wrote above? The muscle will still suck up the glucose (not glycogen) and create glycogen even if you do not take it in right away. The muscle will actually do better using glucose if you with hold it and take it in upwards of 36hrs post training. The longer the better. You just need the carbs before your next bout of weight training. Re read what i wrote in the first reply. I am not being mean i just dont think you understood what i wrote.

Also you forgot or did not want to respond the reason he advocates so strongly for the highly exaggerated attempt to raise insulin even though i believe we are both in agreement according to his plan both fat and muscle are in a fairly insulin resistant state. But the muscle has GLUT 4 on the surface because of insulin independent actions.[/quote]

I think what you are referring to is increased insulin sensitivity of muscle.

Supposedly that lasts up to 48 hours. But again the idea is to do all this when fat isn’t sensitive. So in the evening, after training, (1) you have increased insulin sensitivity in muscle, (2) plus the ability for muscle to use glucose even without insulin, (3) while fat is going to have a hard time storing energy. Right after training in the evening is the only time you have all that. If you wait till the next morning or day, you lose 2 and 3.

The way I understand the lucine stuff was more a recommendation to avoid it until after training because you donâ??t want to trigger insulin release before then. Pretty much that it’s a good thing to take and anabolic, but screws things up earlier in the day.

But again, most of what I’m going off of is what I’ve read in powerlifting USA and what I’ve heard in interviews with him.

455

I hope others are not having as much difficulty understanding what i wrote. I thought it was much more coherent. But we are obviously not on the same page here.

I basically wrote your number 1 2 and 3 in my first paragraph in my first reply. So we agree. Although the one thing i might have to go look at the book again is the muscles being sensitive to insulin. I thought after the caffeine and being at night they were still not sensitive to insulin. But that didnt matter as the training provides the GLUT 4 transporters from the muscle contractions.

But my point was that morning and afternoon training will actually still work and actually might work better because the muscles will still be sensitive to insulin and actually might have a heightened (as in more than if you backload right away) sensitivity and responsiveness if you have enough time between training and taking in carbs. IE you workout in the morning 9-11 and then back load as normal at night at 6pm or 7 or what ever. The muscles then from your points all still exist and may #1 and 2 may be better. So to reiterate training in the evening is actually not necessary and it could be beneficial to workout in the morning. It most likely is actually better and you will see better results.

I was not talking about taking leucine at other times in the day only at night. But studies have also shown that the rise in insulin due to lecuine intake will not inhibit fat loss so actually you could take it at other times.

456

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I hope others are not having as much difficulty understanding what i wrote. I thought it was much more coherent. But we are obviously not on the same page here.

I basically wrote your number 1 2 and 3 in my first paragraph in my first reply. So we agree. Although the one thing i might have to go look at the book again is the muscles being sensitive to insulin. I thought after the caffeine and being at night they were still not sensitive to insulin. But that didnt matter as the training provides the GLUT 4 transporters from the muscle contractions.

But my point was that morning and afternoon training will actually still work and actually might work better because the muscles will still be sensitive to insulin and actually might have a heightened (as in more than if you backload right away) sensitivity and responsiveness if you have enough time between training and taking in carbs. IE you workout in the morning 9-11 and then back load as normal at night at 6pm or 7 or what ever. The muscles then from your points all still exist and may #1 and 2 may be better. So to reiterate training in the evening is actually not necessary and it could be beneficial to workout in the morning. It most likely is actually better and you will see better results.

I was not talking about taking leucine at other times in the day only at night. But studies have also shown that the rise in insulin due to lecuine intake will not inhibit fat loss so actually you could take it at other times.[/quote]

I think I understand you, but I think you are missing a critical point. An increase in insulin sensitivity in muscle tissue is supposed to last a day or 2. The increase in the transporters in muscle tissue is a SEPARATE mechanism for increased glucose transport and only happens for a couple hours after training. Which is why you need fast carbs immediately after training. If you wait longer, you lose the increased GLUT 4 transporters on the surface of muscle tissue. That doesn’t last 36-48 hours.

457

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I hope others are not having as much difficulty understanding what i wrote. I thought it was much more coherent. But we are obviously not on the same page here.

I basically wrote your number 1 2 and 3 in my first paragraph in my first reply. So we agree. Although the one thing i might have to go look at the book again is the muscles being sensitive to insulin. I thought after the caffeine and being at night they were still not sensitive to insulin. But that didnt matter as the training provides the GLUT 4 transporters from the muscle contractions.

But my point was that morning and afternoon training will actually still work and actually might work better because the muscles will still be sensitive to insulin and actually might have a heightened (as in more than if you backload right away) sensitivity and responsiveness if you have enough time between training and taking in carbs. IE you workout in the morning 9-11 and then back load as normal at night at 6pm or 7 or what ever. The muscles then from your points all still exist and may #1 and 2 may be better. So to reiterate training in the evening is actually not necessary and it could be beneficial to workout in the morning. It most likely is actually better and you will see better results.

I was not talking about taking leucine at other times in the day only at night. But studies have also shown that the rise in insulin due to lecuine intake will not inhibit fat loss so actually you could take it at other times.[/quote]

I understand what you’re saying. I still try to train around 4-6 anyway, but yea what you wrote makes sense.

458

I havent seen what the mechanism behind why going carbless for a stretch of time after your workout actually increases the muscles ability to handle glucose. I will try to get back to you on that. The enhanced sensitivty to insulin will actually disappear as fast as 16hrs or faster when you consume carbs right after a workout.

The only reasoans i shared were 1) In case people were avoiding Carb backloading because they couldnt workout at that optimal time. It actually may work better if you dont.
2)In case people want to experiment or tinker.
3) Because this is the only thread on this here and i thought i would share what i have found in these studies

459

Ryan, not trying to necessarily gain weight, just trying to be less fat lol. From what I remember Kiefer suggests high GI carbs because the spike in insulin from the carbs will subside in enough time for you to go to sleep and not impede night time growth hormone production.

460

[quote]Siouxfan wrote:
Ryan, not trying to necessarily gain weight, just trying to be less fat lol. From what I remember Kiefer suggests high GI carbs because the spike in insulin from the carbs will subside in enough time for you to go to sleep and not impede night time growth hormone production. [/quote]
+1

This is the sole reason. He wants the quick and large insulin spike NOT because of insulin mediated glucose storage, but for the reason that the insulin spike is shorter in overall duration.