Carb Back Loading 2.0

Nutrition
144

[quote]IC3MAN wrote:
I have a Q regarding the topic of eccentric less training while on CBL. I’m about to start HP Mass again and my arm size is lagging a lot so I was planning on doing eccentric less bicep and tricep work after each workout. CT has seemed to express the importance of having nutrient already in your system though and this is where I’m unsure about the best way to incorporate the eccentric less into my program.

Right now, I’m lifting, immediately having a shake with 30-35 grams of whey, a really ripe banana and then 30-40 grams of dextrose. An hour after that I carb load for about 4-4 1/2 hours.

My thought was to consume my initial shake and then when I start carb loading (an hour later) do my eccentric less work then?

I start out with a shake with rice flour so I could just be drinking my carbs and pulling my sled. Idk if that would be the right way to go about it though?

Also should I down my dextrose shake if I’m losing energy in my workout… let’s say I get 75-90 minutes into the workout, what does keifer say about that? I thought I saw something on being able to get some nutrient in if your workout is extra long or taxing. Which toward the end of the HP Mass program, it gets that way.

Thanks for any help! [/quote]

Try what you thought and see if it works. If not, try the opposite. Only way to learn is to experiment on yourself. As for the losing energy, are you physically wiped or just mentally? There’s a distinct difference. Being mentally tired and not “in the zone” feels different than being carb depleted. I’d say you need to figure that out before adding in carbs during the workout.

That said, my strongman events days can last from 8-12 some weekends, and I can make PR’s all the way through with just powerade zero to drink. However, if my explosion/strength suddenly dives on an event, I’ll start drinking my PWO shake and I’ll be good to go by the next event. You have to learn to go by feel, and determine whether you “need” the carbs to perform or if you “want” the carbs just so you don’t feel like shit, but can still perform fine.

145

I have been density bulking now for a week. I love it like really love it however I was thinking what if long term all the carbs and simple sugars could result in diabetes?. Does Kiefer say anything about this in the book. I did not buy it due to the vast quantity of online info. I have pretty much read every post since siouxfan started the orig post and don’t remember seeing anything about it. Thoughts everyone?

146

[quote]MEATATERIAN wrote:
I have been density bulking now for a week. I love it like really love it however I was thinking what if long term all the carbs and simple sugars could result in diabetes?. Does Kiefer say anything about this in the book. I did not buy it due to the vast quantity of online info. I have pretty much read every post since siouxfan started the orig post and don’t remember seeing anything about it. Thoughts everyone?[/quote]

I read that Kiefer claims his clients see no difference in their blood-work after a year of CBL. Having said that, it’s hard to believe this diet is sustainable for the long term.

I’m also a week into CBL, but I’m doing strength accumulation to see how I respond before I start a density bulk. I’m playing around with carb sources to see what works best for me.

I’d like to hear other responses as well.

147

Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.

148

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.[/quote]

Kiefer suggests using junk food, but let’s pretend for a moment that junk food isn’t used for the backload. Would consuming 500gms of high GI carbs several times a week over the long term lead to insulin resistance? If it doesn’t, what would make a pastry or bowl of high quality ice cream any more junk than a bowl of rice?

149

[quote]Mac85 wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.[/quote]

Kiefer suggests using junk food, but let’s pretend for a moment that junk food isn’t used for the backload. Would consuming 500gms of high GI carbs several times a week over the long term lead to insulin resistance? If it doesn’t, what would make a pastry or bowl of high quality ice cream any more junk than a bowl of rice?

[/quote]

I’ve been following this dietary protocol for about a month now, and I know for a fact that it’s not designed to be a healthy way to eat (or at least it’s not touted as a health diet). It’s designed to burn fat and add/keep muscle mass…period. However, you can make it healthy by just not eating the junk foods that stimulate a high insulin release.

There are quite a few people in the forums on DH that are pursuing the paleo-style dieting in this manner, and as I’ve been only following for a short while, they seem to be performing alright.

This dietary protocol isn’t a matter of being healthy living, I mean comeon, let’s face it. Bodybuilding isn’t exactly the healthiest sport out there, nor is powerlifting. The dieting, the excessive working out, the diuretics, the excessive vitamins and powders, the drugs in some cases…and I’m not going to chastise anyone for that, because I’m the same way. You do what you do to get ahead in the game. We put our bodies through complete hell day in and day out because we want to get bigger, leaner, stronger, perform better. If you’re goal is to just be healthy, yeah, it could probably do that too, but it’s not designed for that purpose.

Keifer has come up with a unique way of manipulating the bodies hormones through food and workout timing that seems to work really well. But in the end it is what you make out of it.

v/r

Gremlin

150

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

[quote]Mac85 wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.[/quote]

Kiefer suggests using junk food, but let’s pretend for a moment that junk food isn’t used for the backload. Would consuming 500gms of high GI carbs several times a week over the long term lead to insulin resistance? If it doesn’t, what would make a pastry or bowl of high quality ice cream any more junk than a bowl of rice?

[/quote]

I’ve been following this dietary protocol for about a month now, and I know for a fact that it’s not designed to be a healthy way to eat (or at least it’s not touted as a health diet). It’s designed to burn fat and add/keep muscle mass…period. However, you can make it healthy by just not eating the junk foods that stimulate a high insulin release.

There are quite a few people in the forums on DH that are pursuing the paleo-style dieting in this manner, and as I’ve been only following for a short while, they seem to be performing alright.

This dietary protocol isn’t a matter of being healthy living, I mean comeon, let’s face it. Bodybuilding isn’t exactly the healthiest sport out there, nor is powerlifting. The dieting, the excessive working out, the diuretics, the excessive vitamins and powders, the drugs in some cases…and I’m not going to chastise anyone for that, because I’m the same way. You do what you do to get ahead in the game. We put our bodies through complete hell day in and day out because we want to get bigger, leaner, stronger, perform better. If you’re goal is to just be healthy, yeah, it could probably do that too, but it’s not designed for that purpose.

Keifer has come up with a unique way of manipulating the bodies hormones through food and workout timing that seems to work really well. But in the end it is what you make out of it.

v/r

Gremlin[/quote]

I’m not talking about being the healthiest person out there, nor am I a longevity nut. I’m talking about general health concerns. Insulin resistance is a serious health concern for anyone, and that is what my question is about.

151

This diet is perfect for making you more insulin sensitve which is the opposite of insulin resistance

152

[quote]Mac85 wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.[/quote]

Kiefer suggests using junk food, but let’s pretend for a moment that junk food isn’t used for the backload. Would consuming 500gms of high GI carbs several times a week over the long term lead to insulin resistance? If it doesn’t, what would make a pastry or bowl of high quality ice cream any more junk than a bowl of rice?

[/quote]

It is suggested but he also states not to use CBL as an excuse to eat only junk. Why do you think withholding carbs until after the workout at the end of the day will result in insulin resistance? Spiking blood sugar levels multiple times per day is what I would be more concerned with.

153

K I wanna try this diet out but first I have a couple of questions:

  1. How do I approach this if I’m training earlier in the day? I only ask because I’ve read a couple different things.

  2. How do I approach this if I train later in the day?

  3. Do you back load on the days before the workouts or the days of the workouts?

I know that the answers have probably stated many times before but my Internet is really shitty at this point, so flipping through all the pages takes forever. Thank you.

154

[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
K I wanna try this diet out but first I have a couple of questions:

  1. How do I approach this if I’m training earlier in the day? I only ask because I’ve read a couple different things. [/quote] Currently a couple of people are trying this on the Dangerously Hardcore forums. For the most part it is the same protocol. Try to fast as much as possible. Have some MCT oil (or coconut oil after your workout to prevent muscle catabolism…still researching this one) and or coffee with cream. Have protein/fat meals up until the PM.

What I’ve been doing is splitting my workouts into double splits with 5-3-1 in the morning and some interval training or HITT cardio. Then I’ll hit some hypertrophy sets in the PM right before the backload. The most important thing in this scenario to get your body to respond is the GLUT 4 non-insulin mediated response from the muscles. I think it will still work if you don’t split your workouts, but the effect may be blunted due to the time delay.

Some people are having leucine and creatine after their AM workouts, but my goals are for fat loss; whereas leucine causes an insulin spike and will halt fat loss. The idea is to keep the fasting to increase the fat loss as long as possible and them stimulate MPS after your workout with a high level of insulin spiking and amino acid intake to repair the tissues.

[quote]
2) How do I approach this if I train later in the day? [/quote] Fast for at least 3-4 hours upon waking. Eat protein/fat meals prior to workout. After workout, spike insulin with carbs and protein shake. From what I can tell you have about a four hour window of effectiveness for overall carbohydrate loading, but it could be more. I’m just going off of my own research here.

[quote]
3) Do you back load on the days before the workouts or the days of the workouts?

I know that the answers have probably stated many times before but my Internet is really shitty at this point, so flipping through all the pages takes forever. Thank you. [/quote]

You backload only on the days of the workout. Non-workout days are predominately low carb (<30grams). Although some people have tried back loading on days prior to a heavy leg or deadlift session. Seems to be a little play depending upon your goals.

v/r

Gremlin

155

Much Appreciated! I can’t thank you enough!

156

[quote]throws56 wrote:
do you guys really think its required for backloading to be effective? Does anyone know what the book says about carb intake requirements for a backload?[/quote]

I haven’t bought the book yet either, but I’m so curious now that I want to get it, despite the reviews that it’s really lacking in some topics. I’ve been listening to his podcasts on BioJacked Radio though and he says that you can overdo it on carbohydrate, but I’m sure that it’s going to be individualistic. As well as for females, he says that CBL tends to cause a bit of a problem with the back loads. I mean, I can’t say how much carbohydrate your body is going to hold in relationship to mine. You could try and calculate it with an equation on glycogen loading for the liver and muscle mass based on body mass kg/g of carbs, but I can’t remember the equation off hand and I’m lazy today so I don’t feel like looking it up.

I’ve started off just trying to up my carbohydrates by a 100-200g or so a night just to see how I feel. I really haven’t felt bad since starting CBL two weeks ago. My muscles are full and popping out like never before. Serratus is coming in nicely. I was kind of shocked after being on the Anabolic Diet for so long and carb cycling how rapid I got some results. My main goal right now is to lose bodyfat, while maintaining muscle mass, but I may actually be gaining some muscle mass from this protocol as well. Lifts are going up and I feel more recovered upon waking.

I have been researching this topic pretty extensively, and most of the research Keifer has done is backed up, but there’s a lot of material.

It must be working somehow if people are utilizing it for lifting. I still think I’m going to wait until he publishes his next book with all the updates.

v/r

Gremlin

157

Has anyone else here who bought the book know anything on updates being released or how to get them, because I have a lot of unanswered questions?

If not how can I get my questions answered on his site like someone here recommended? And I mean answered by him. I see a lot of threads and replies back and forth between users but their knowledge base isn’t the greatest and I want to get specific answers fom the guy who wrote the book.

From the forums and threads I went through he doesn’t seem to respond to anything really.

158

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

I’ve been listening to his podcasts on BioJacked Radio though and he says that you can overdo it on carbohydrate, but I’m sure that it’s going to be individualistic.

[/quote]

I’ve been reading alot and listening to his podcasts, and I’m intrigued as well. One of the things he said is get to know your body weight and how it fluctuates with water weight and how your body looks in the mirror, and when you can tell you are retaining water from the scale or the mirror, this is usually a sign you are packed full of carbs and don’t need any more. So back down on the back loading if you are puffy and bloated. It makes sense to me.

159

JJackkrash,

Yeah, I’m really intrigued. I think the biggest thing that hooked me is the fact that I’ve been on the Paleo diet for a while now, but I would always have a glass or two of wine after a bike ride and some air popped popcorn (a really big bowl). The next day I was just ripped up and veiny and I was like, hmmmm, strange I look better than I did yesterday despite alcohol and Hi GL CHOs.

Then I come across this nutrition protocol on Elite Fitness and I start digging. Pretty interesting hormone manipulation. Naturally I start experimenting with this new protocol, since where I’m at all there is to do is get up train, eat, train more, eat more and sleep. The food quality isn’t the best, but I’ve gotta give it a shot. It’s working pretty well so far. I’ll be glad when I can get back on a true paleo style diet though and really see some gains.

v/r

Gremlin

160

I’ve been doing this for about a month and a half now and haven’t really had a day where i woke up the next morning feeling full and energized. I do also bloat very easily though and def was usually a little bloated before going to bed because i tried to fit in as many carbs as i could. Do you guys think that going to bed bloated would affect how i feel the next morning?

161

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

I’ve been listening to his podcasts on BioJacked Radio though and he says that you can overdo it on carbohydrate, but I’m sure that it’s going to be individualistic.

[/quote]

I’ve been reading alot and listening to his podcasts, and I’m intrigued as well. One of the things he said is get to know your body weight and how it fluctuates with water weight and how your body looks in the mirror, and when you can tell you are retaining water from the scale or the mirror, this is usually a sign you are packed full of carbs and don’t need any more. So back down on the back loading if you are puffy and bloated. It makes sense to me.
[/quote]

Not sure if that’s totally accurate. It might not apply to my situation becuae I do an AD type diet, but my first day or so of carbing up I not only retain water but look and feel flat and small. By the end of the carb up on sunday night I’m usually crisp, vascular and full, kind of strange.
Also like Bellitto, when doing CBL I would always get smooth the night of the carb up and following morning. I actually got tighter and fuller as the following day went on closer to the evening.

162

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

I’ve been listening to his podcasts on BioJacked Radio though and he says that you can overdo it on carbohydrate, but I’m sure that it’s going to be individualistic.

[/quote]

I’ve been reading alot and listening to his podcasts, and I’m intrigued as well. One of the things he said is get to know your body weight and how it fluctuates with water weight and how your body looks in the mirror, and when you can tell you are retaining water from the scale or the mirror, this is usually a sign you are packed full of carbs and don’t need any more. So back down on the back loading if you are puffy and bloated. It makes sense to me.
[/quote]

Not sure if that’s totally accurate. It might not apply to my situation becuae I do an AD type diet, but my first day or so of carbing up I not only retain water but look and feel flat and small. By the end of the carb up on sunday night I’m usually crisp, vascular and full, kind of strange.
Also like Bellitto, when doing CBL I would always get smooth the night of the carb up and following morning. I actually got tighter and fuller as the following day went on closer to the evening.[/quote]

I am just getting into this and I haven’t read the book yet, and I didn’t mean to spread any misinformation. But it is my understanding that Kiefer advocates using the mirror and the scale to monitor water retention. This issue warrants further investigation on my part, thanks for the heads up.

163

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:

[quote]Mac85 wrote:

[quote]StateOfPsychosis wrote:
Don’t eat junk food for you carb sources. This diet is as healthy as you make it.[/quote]

Kiefer suggests using junk food, but let’s pretend for a moment that junk food isn’t used for the backload. Would consuming 500gms of high GI carbs several times a week over the long term lead to insulin resistance? If it doesn’t, what would make a pastry or bowl of high quality ice cream any more junk than a bowl of rice?

[/quote]

It is suggested but he also states not to use CBL as an excuse to eat only junk. Why do you think withholding carbs until after the workout at the end of the day will result in insulin resistance? Spiking blood sugar levels multiple times per day is what I would be more concerned with.[/quote]

I’m not saying it will, I was asking if it’s a possibility that spiking insulin to that degree would have a negative impact on insulin sensitivity over the long term. I’ve never really dialed in my nutrition, just ate the typical body-building fare over 5 meals throughout the day. I’m enjoying CBL for the most part right now and I would like to continue with it as long as I’m not screwing up my health.