I would suggest asking Kiefer today on his biojacked podcast
and NEW destination for Biojacked
Call in to speak with the host
(347) 945-5027
Episode #14: Q&A with Kiefer and Alex Navarro
wow, speak to the man himself, do it up boys. I’ll listen in.
NOTE: After dancing around between two other threads, finally decided to just jump in on this one. Below is an edited (for length) version of my original question(s):
[i]I had been basically been doing IF for some time now, though I was being very selective of my carb choices (after the age of 30, metabolism is no longer what it once was), but after stumbling upon CBL I became quite intrigued by the “eating trash but staying ripped” claims. I downloaded and read the whole book yesterday (well, except the testimonials) and I have to say the science behind it all makes a lot of sense, at least from a theoretical standpoint.
One concern I have, however, is the seemingly ridiculously high amount of post-workout carbs. I know the obvious answer here is “Try it and adjust,” but I’m just wondering - from real-world experience - if others have found these estimates to be high.
Is the preparation phase the real difference - the “secret key,” in a manner of speaking - between IF and CBL and is that what really allows your body to handle the ridiculous amounts of high GI carbs on CBL as compared to IF?[/i]
[quote]farmerson12 wrote:
Question guys. Out of the 2-3 low carb meals during the day, Ill have either a mega shake or a smaller one to push my protein up. Keifer suggests Whey Isolate but my powder is a carb free blend of WI34%/Micellar Casein 33%/Egg White Pro33%. Will that negatively affect me in any way?[/quote]
I just bought and read the book yesterday and unless a) I’m misreading your question, b) the book is outdated, or c) both, my thinking is that your question depends on whether you’re doing Strength Accumulation or Density Bulking.
If fat burning is your goal (a.k.a. SA), Kiefer specifically mentions that you don’t want to go over 10 grams or so (with regard to your “mega shake” comment) of whey isolate because the goal here is to not induce an insulin response, thus negating the fat-burning advantages of staying low-carb for most of the day. Whey isolate apparently is the best type of protein for avoiding (much) of an insulin response.
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
If you’re going the Density Bulking route, it may not matter as much. Though, admittedly, I didn’t pay as much attention to the details of that protocol since it’s not the one I’m following.
He is updating the book. he’s on live right now: Episode #14: Q&A with Kiefer and Alex Navarro 07/10 by BioJacked Radio | Fitness
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.
[quote]Meni69 wrote:
I would suggest asking Kiefer today on his biojacked podcast
and NEW destination for Biojacked
Call in to speak with the host
(347) 945-5027
Episode #14: Q&A with Kiefer and Alex Navarro
wow, speak to the man himself, do it up boys. I’ll listen in.
[/quote]
Jesus, he needs Naomi back.
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?[/quote]
I do recall he thinks you should cycle whey and eggs, and not have them on the same day.
as for pre-workout, I belive he mentioned 1 to 2 eggs okay, 4 ore more, too much spike?
then again I could be 100% wrong, sorry lol
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?[/quote]
Eggs and the spike talked about on Kiefer’s forum
[quote]Meni69 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?[/quote]
I do recall he thinks you should cycle whey and eggs, and not have them on the same day.
as for pre-workout, I belive he mentioned 1 to 2 eggs okay, 4 ore more, too much spike?
then again I could be 100% wrong, sorry lol[/quote]
The sample meal I saw from one of the mods was a half pound of bacon and 5 eggs. It was also mentioned somewhere else that it was fine to have eggs with cheese and ham.
They say not to have the whey shake on your off days because of the insulin spike.
Is Carb Nite discussed in this thread too or does that deserve it’s own thread?
Been on that for the last 3 weeks. Constantly eating ground beef and eggs.
Leaning out and enjoying it.
Biggest thing I have noticed is the increased sex drive as well funnily enough.
[quote]gkeeper24 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?[/quote]
The Reference in the book is: Holt SH, Miller JC, Petocz P. An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76.
When I googled that I got this study: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods - PubMed
Which shows eggs as having a low insulin index. So idk about this one.[/quote]
I was actually wondering how accurate these insulin indexes are.
But my biggest questions relating to Keiffers insistance on keeping insulin low are
Is there really that big of a difference in insulin response between no carb protien sources to actually screw up the diet?
How long will insulin stay elevated after a purely whole egg or beef meal to negatively affect the diet especially in comparison to a meal with carbs.
Lastly does the rise in insuling in a carb free protien meal really matter that much since you dont have any carbs anyway. I t seems to me that it would be a quick rise and fall with hardly any blood glucose needing to be cleared and therefore right back into fat burning.
Anyone have any opions or knowledge in the biology of the body regarding insulin etc.
[quote]as wrote:
[quote]gkeeper24 wrote:
[quote]MAF14 wrote:
[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
[quote]CC wrote:
Further, he specifically points out that eggs are a poor CBL choice of protein pre-WO, because they induce quite a large insulin response (though, to be fair, he was referring to whole eggs). Personally, I’ll stay away from both whole eggs and egg protein powder pre-WO until I hear Kiefer say otherwise.
[/quote]
One of the mods on the forum mentioned that you can have eggs with other fat sources.[/quote]
aslong as it real fatty. atleast they say.[/quote]
Does any one (or Kiefer) have a source for this?[/quote]
The Reference in the book is: Holt SH, Miller JC, Petocz P. An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Nov;66(5):1264-76.
When I googled that I got this study: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods - PubMed
Which shows eggs as having a low insulin index. So idk about this one.[/quote]
I was actually wondering how accurate these insulin indexes are.
But my biggest questions relating to Keiffers insistance on keeping insulin low are
Is there really that big of a difference in insulin response between no carb protien sources to actually screw up the diet?
How long will insulin stay elevated after a purely whole egg or beef meal to negatively affect the diet especially in comparison to a meal with carbs.
Lastly does the rise in insuling in a carb free protien meal really matter that much since you dont have any carbs anyway. I t seems to me that it would be a quick rise and fall with hardly any blood glucose needing to be cleared and therefore right back into fat burning.
Anyone have any opions or knowledge in the biology of the body regarding insulin etc.[/quote]
I would recommend you join the Dangerously Hardcore group on Facebook, and peruse his actual site. If you have questions for Kiefer, best person to ask, is Kiefer.
I think I remember hearing its was the high Lucien in the yolks that was the main component responsible to the insulin rise…so whites ok maybe…i wish it wasn’t so, I love my eggs 
[quote]throws56 wrote:
I think I remember hearing its was the high Lucien in the yolks that was the main component responsible to the insulin rise…so whites ok maybe…i wish it wasn’t so, I love my eggs :([/quote]
This is the reason i use eggs and white rice in coconut oil post workout.
I asked Dr Poteet/MODOK about this. Here was his resopnse:
Raz- yes, proteins do illicit an insulin response, but it also illicits a glucagon response. It is bi-phasic and really. Auses no adverse effects on health or body composition. Regarding eggs, they already come with fat? Simply eat the yolk.
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
I asked Dr Poteet/MODOK about this. Here was his resopnse:
Raz- yes, proteins do illicit an insulin response, but it also illicits a glucagon response. It is bi-phasic and really. Auses no adverse effects on health or body composition. Regarding eggs, they already come with fat? Simply eat the yolk.
[/quote]
The “problem” is, I believe, it is the yolk, specifically, the Lucien they contain.
But yea, I thought it was weird, Figured the fat would equal things out. I remember him saying 3 eggs with some additional fats you’d be fine, no worry of spikes.
I have a Q regarding the topic of eccentric less training while on CBL. I’m about to start HP Mass again and my arm size is lagging a lot so I was planning on doing eccentric less bicep and tricep work after each workout. CT has seemed to express the importance of having nutrient already in your system though and this is where I’m unsure about the best way to incorporate the eccentric less into my program.
Right now, I’m lifting, immediately having a shake with 30-35 grams of whey, a really ripe banana and then 30-40 grams of dextrose. An hour after that I carb load for about 4-4 1/2 hours.
My thought was to consume my initial shake and then when I start carb loading (an hour later) do my eccentric less work then?
I start out with a shake with rice flour so I could just be drinking my carbs and pulling my sled. Idk if that would be the right way to go about it though?
Also should I down my dextrose shake if I’m losing energy in my workout… let’s say I get 75-90 minutes into the workout, what does keifer say about that? I thought I saw something on being able to get some nutrient in if your workout is extra long or taxing. Which toward the end of the HP Mass program, it gets that way.
Thanks for any help!
[quote]throws56 wrote:
[quote]Razamataz wrote:
I asked Dr Poteet/MODOK about this. Here was his resopnse:
Raz- yes, proteins do illicit an insulin response, but it also illicits a glucagon response. It is bi-phasic and really. Auses no adverse effects on health or body composition. Regarding eggs, they already come with fat? Simply eat the yolk.
[/quote]
The “problem” is, I believe, it is the yolk, specifically, the Lucien they contain.
But yea, I thought it was weird, Figured the fat would equal things out. I remember him saying 3 eggs with some additional fats you’d be fine, no worry of spikes. [/quote]
There’s about .5g leucine in one egg (.3 in yolk and .2 in white). So you’d need 6 eggs to hit 3g leucine… 5g leucine is usually the minimum I’ve seen for the protein synthesis benefits. So you’d need 10 eggs to hit 5g leucine.
But the insulin response and protein synthesis benefits come from 5g FREE FORM leucine, usually on an empty stomach. All that leucine is bound up in chains of protein and also digestion is slowed by the fat.