Carb Back Loading 2.0

Nutrition
304

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:

I think a common misconception with Carb-Backloading is to back load on ‘crap’ (not literally). A lot of people seem to think it is OK to gorge in excess of 500 carbs from cookies, ice cram, cakes, doughnuts…

In my opinion this would be a sure way to do some damage. JK himself stated that this is not a long-term approach. To increase the shelf life of this program I suggest you keep your carbs to Maltodextrin, Potato, White Rice and a small portion of desert. My 2 cents.[/quote]

I call B.S. on this. See my above post with a quote from CBL. My understanding is the whole point of the diet is to keep insulin levels low until its time to jack the insulin, then you are supposed to jack it too the moon and then let the insulin clear before or around bed time.

305

JaKkacKKrash:

You are quoting Kiefer’s book, which btw is outdated and he is looking at releasing a new one, so I hear (read). My advice comes from not just the book but also his website dangerously Hardocre and their forum. Kiefer is always looking at improving his theory and so I urge you all to keep one eye on his site and any updates from it.

Sean Hyson is a strong follower of CBL and has been doing it for much longer than 4 months. Which you cannot call long term, if you do then your advise is flawed from the foundation you’re basing it from. I will find the EXACT source where Keifer himself states CBL is not a long term approach.

However below is an extract from Sean Hyson. He did an interview with JK where John once again re-iterated what I said (it will do for now):

"What To Consider

Like the Carb Nite plan, it may not be healthy long-term. I can picture the pundits at the American Dietetic Association looking aghast at Kiefer?s meal plans. As anyone familiar with bodybuilding diets knows, there?s a distinction that needs to be made between losing fat healthily and just losing it. There?s a difference between performance nutrition and health nutrition.

Eating sugar- and fat-rich foods can certainly aggravate blood pressure and cholesterol levels, but if your body fat is going down, one can make the argument that you?re still improving health. While I think Kiefer?s general tenet of consuming carbs at night is a great guideline to follow for the rest of one?s life, extreme feedings of junk foods shouldn?t be maintained for long periods. That?s just common sense, and Kiefer doesn?t argue it. If you?re concerned about eating too much junk food, stay instead with cleaner carbs like grains and potatoes." - SH

Let’s think about it… (you are allowed to use your own brain too - it’s called an opinion). If you eat crap, will you get an insulin spike, YES! Will you also get a ton of unnecessary crap…after all it is crap, YES! Well then does it not make sense to eat those foods that will create an insulin spike but not provide the crap that comes with processed foods…I don’t know!

Now lets look at what I said is better to consume; rice, potato, dessert, maltodextrin. For me at least that is enough to spike my insulin like crazy. Having gone Paleo for over 6 months I could feel the effects of carbs. What has that done for me…about 1 month of this and I have gained 5lbs with a slight improvement in definition - it works for me, so i’ll advise it. I did a dirtier backload for 2 weeks prior to tidying it up. I felt tired, weak and irritated, despite getting the same amount of carbs.

If eating junk works for you and or you need to justify consuming junk food with CBL then go ahead. Just don’t call B.S. on my comment.

306

Ok, so, I didn’t mean “calling B.S.” in a disrespectful way, other than I haven’t heard or read Keifer concede that his advice is “unhealthy” long term. I have listened to all the podcasts and read a lot on DH, although probably not everything, and the closest I have seen is him telling someone on QA, in an appeasing way, “if you are concerned that eating junk will hurt you long term, then you could modify the protocols and eat . . .”, but I’ve never heard him actually concede that his advice is unhealthy, or back track from the fact that he personally backloads with things like turnovers and white bread and ice cream. If you can find him conceding its “unhealthy” to do what he says in CBL, I would genuinely be interested in that.

I am not convinced that, long term, if you are training and staying lean and eating junk in a small window after training that it will make your bloodwork go bad following the backloading protocols. In other words, I’m not convinced that its “unhealthy” to use some junk as a tool to build muscle and stay lean. If I saw evidence to the contrary, I’d evaluate it for sure.

Also, in the “long run” we’re all dead. And I don’t mean that to be sarcastic, my point is, what is the long run? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? I am having good luck right now at age 45 staying lean, putting on a little muscle, and getting stronger eating in a way that I both enjoy and that works for performance for at least the last few months. If I get fat, or my bloodwork comes back bad at a checkup, I’ll reevaluate.

307

Anyone in here actually doing CBL I have a question that I feel is not adequately mentioned in the book. There is a meal plan in the back but it just confused me.

I train around 7:30 to 8:00 for a little over an hour. I know I need to stay ULC the first part of the day, I am confused on pre training carbs. I saw on the meal plan for 9PM training Keifer suggests pre training carbs with your dinner. I was under the impression I need to stay ULC until after training and then eat my carbs.

As a side note I only consumed 200 grams of Carbs last night and I found it kind of difficult. It was my first real backload. I’m sure as the habbit grows it will be easier but aside from gummy bears I don’t typically eat alot of high GI carbs.

308

Jack,

I’m sure I read it in a transcript of one of Kiefers podcasts/interviews. I was following both the transcript and the pod and I know i read it somewhere…just got to find it. In my mind there is not harm in having one or two pieces of desert if it helps jack insulin a little further…what I am trying to divert some people from are those who devour; a whole box of chocolates, 10 doubles choc cookies, pizza’s etc…all in one night in the name of CBL. IMO this one justifying eating/over dosing on junk. I will stick to white bread, white rice, potato, cereal. In fact my favourite is to add 2 big scoops of vanilla ice cream to my 2nd shake, mmmm. But what I don’t do is have all of the above in one go.

The main bulk of my backload stems from healthier options with the added dose of a portion or two of cheat meals. Personally this has worked for me, but it might not for the next guy. All I want to do is share my opinion/experiences on the forum and if i’m completely misguided then fellow Tnation’ers can advise me. I will keep digging to find that elusive document/source and i’ll be keeping a keen eye on DH to see what Kiefer has to say.

Caleb,

I don’t train that late, so I will suggest going on DH or facebook and posting that queston there. Using my common sense. I would have thought if you are going to bed within a couple hours of finishing your training then you may not be getting enough carbs to re-fuel the next days workout, hence the PWO carbs. But obviously that is at a cost of PWO GH release. My knowledge on this is light so don’t take that as gospel.

I did struggle to up my carbs to even 200grams the first time round. I woke up the next morning and my stomach was like FU!!! it does take a few days to get used to. Adding Maltodextrin or Dextrose as supplements in your PWO shake can go a long way to making whatever your carb goal is, much easier. Ice cream too.

309

I felt pretty damn good yesterday training keeping ULC until PWO. I felt strong and didn’t die out toward the end of my sets. I will say my strength did wane a little at the end though. I am using 531 and had bench yesterday. 5s day. I hit 7 reps on my last set which is pretty good, used 80 lb. DB 5x10 and the last couple sets failed at around 8 reps.

Some days I use 90s and have no problem hitting my reps other days I am wiped out and can’t hit my reps with 70s or 75s. I was tired and i’m sure that effected my workout.

200 grams of carbs was not easy in a two hour window. I ate a potato, 2 slices of white bread, 40 g Dextrose, and 12 oz. of Sprite. The Sprite was a last second decision. Saw it in the fridge and thought it would be an easy 40 grams.

310

Caleb, you want to actually avoid HFCS since it doesn’t so much for the insulin system.

311

Costco all natural mini cinnamon rolls, no HFCS, 30 grams a pop, and melt in your mouth.

312

Why are you only eating carbs for 2 hours…are you going to bed at 11?

+1, no fizzy drinks. Up the dextrose, it will be easier to get more in.

Keep going though.

313

Yeah…I knew I was doing the wrong thing. I havn’t been shopping and didn’t have much else to pick from.

I get home from the gym around 8:15 to 9:15 depending on when I get started and usually get to bed at 10 to 10:30. My window for PWO is small. I’m probably going to double the dextrose by taking it with PWO Protein and Bedtime Protein. That is roughly 80 grams.

I’ve decided to stick with 200 gram BL for this week and judge how I feel. Next week I might increase it to 300 grams and see if I can feel a difference.

314

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Why are you only eating carbs for 2 hours…are you going to bed at 11?

+1, no fizzy drinks. Up the dextrose, it will be easier to get more in.

Keep going though.[/quote]

I go to bed at 10:30/11PM and train at 7PM. :frowning: Veeeery small window to get the backload in. Still seeing great reuslts though.

[quote]calebsmitty wrote:
Yeah…I knew I was doing the wrong thing. I havn’t been shopping and didn’t have much else to pick from.

I get home from the gym around 8:15 to 9:15 depending on when I get started and usually get to bed at 10 to 10:30. My window for PWO is small. I’m probably going to double the dextrose by taking it with PWO Protein and Bedtime Protein. That is roughly 80 grams.

I’ve decided to stick with 200 gram BL for this week and judge how I feel. Next week I might increase it to 300 grams and see if I can feel a difference. [/quote]

Do you drink any PWO protein shakes? I do Surge Recovery (previously whey+Gatorade/dextrose) immediately PWO. I wait about 40-45mins before dinner, do my backload with actual food (lots of it), and normally eat a bunch of Greek yoghurt before bed, plus some casein and more dextrose. I’m a smaller guy (160ish pounds), but am still hitting 180-200g of carbs no problem.

I should note I eat a Finibar during my workout as well, and that does help too.

315

So far my typical pre and post WO is:

a small protein meal that my wife cooks. Ground beef, chicken, etc. with some vegetable

quick caffeine and creatine drink. Coffee + creatine or just creatine Pre Workout

PWO Shake is roughly 30 grams of Protein, Leucine, Creatine, and 40 g Dextrose

I wait about 30 minutes before I eat my carbs. I am trying to get at least 200 g. Next week I’m going to bump it up to 300 grams and compare the results.

316

Hey, so how much do people weigh, and how much protein approximately is everyone eating?

317

Well I weight 230 lbs. at 6 ft. 12-15% BF. I can only tell you I don’t directly monitor my protein intake. I just know that I eat protein with every meal except for some of my backload meals. For example.

Lunch: 2 hamburger patties, bacon, cheese, veggies - should be roughly 50 grams of Prot.
Snack: Almonds and Pop some pepperoni slices - around 15 - 20 grams of protein
3:30PM: Protein Shake - 50 grams, with creatine
7:00PM: Eat with Family. Usually some protein and vegetable + Fat - should be between 25 - 50 grams or Prot.
PWO: Shake 30 g protein, 5 g Leucine, 10 G Creatine, 40 G Dextrose
BL meal: no protein
Bedtime: 30 g Protein, Creatine, 40 G Dextrose

So if I do all that I get 200+ Grams of Protein. Which is roughly 1 G per lb. of LBW.

318

I have decided that moving forward, at least until I am done with football season, I am going to just stick to one CarbNite on Saturday night. My schedule makes CBL difficult with such a small window in which to BL. And my days to train mean I am backloading for three days and going ULC for the remainder until Saturday.

If I go ape shit on Saturday and shoot for 800-1000 grams of Carbs I should be loaded up to train hard Sunday and Monday. I’m planning on sticking with 531 and Sunday hitting Squat and DL and work accessories during the week when I am more depleted. Monday will be Bench and Press with accessories later in the week.

This way I can enjoy my Saturday with my family and not worry about diet.

319

I just got done using CBL SA to lean down to what’s been measured at roughly 9% BF. I’m only 6’2", and about 180 lbs now though, so obviously it’s time for some Density Bulking. Here’s what I’m thinking.

Wake-up: Sip some water, coffee, tea, go to class, bleh bleh bleh
2pm: 6 Tequila Lime Chicken wings with ranch, 2tbsp of VCO, 4 fish oil pills
4pm: Train
5pm: 2 scoops whey + 80g carbs from Gatorade
6pm-8 pm:
2 pop-Tarts
2 cups of Jasmine Rice, 8oz chicken, soy sauce
6 chocolate chip pancakes + syrup
11pm: 2 scoops whey

While cutting, I ended up eating around 2500kcal, with 250g Carbs. The new meal plan will be about 3100kcal with 400g Carbs (I’m going to ramp up to this in hte coming weeks). I lift 6x a week, so my one off day, I’ll probably only eat <200g Carbs. Thoughts? Critiques?

I also take 4 fishoil a day, a multi, and am getting creatine tomorrow, which i have no idea how to use effectively lol (Will probably just do what Kiefer recommends in the book)

320

^^^ Can’t go wrong with chocolate chip pancakes dripping in syrup, especially for dinner. Mmmm.

321

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I just got done using CBL SA to lean down to what’s been measured at roughly 9% BF. I’m only 6’2", and about 180 lbs now though, so obviously it’s time for some Density Bulking. Here’s what I’m thinking.

Wake-up: Sip some water, coffee, tea, go to class, bleh bleh bleh
2pm: 6 Tequila Lime Chicken wings with ranch, 2tbsp of VCO, 4 fish oil pills
4pm: Train
5pm: 2 scoops whey + 80g carbs from Gatorade
6pm-8 pm:
2 pop-Tarts
2 cups of Jasmine Rice, 8oz chicken, soy sauce
6 chocolate chip pancakes + syrup
11pm: 2 scoops whey

While cutting, I ended up eating around 2500kcal, with 250g Carbs. The new meal plan will be about 3100kcal with 400g Carbs (I’m going to ramp up to this in hte coming weeks). I lift 6x a week, so my one off day, I’ll probably only eat <200g Carbs. Thoughts? Critiques?

I also take 4 fishoil a day, a multi, and am getting creatine tomorrow, which i have no idea how to use effectively lol (Will probably just do what Kiefer recommends in the book)
[/quote]

I think since you are coming from SA, you are probably less likely to ‘over do it’ Density Bulking (aka do it as the book is written, IMO). That said, I’d be interested in seeing how it works out for you for lean mass gains.

Do you have any set goals? X lbs by Y time with Z changes in bf% or anything like that?

322

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I just got done using CBL SA to lean down to what’s been measured at roughly 9% BF. I’m only 6’2", and about 180 lbs now though, so obviously it’s time for some Density Bulking. Here’s what I’m thinking.

Wake-up: Sip some water, coffee, tea, go to class, bleh bleh bleh
2pm: 6 Tequila Lime Chicken wings with ranch, 2tbsp of VCO, 4 fish oil pills
4pm: Train
5pm: 2 scoops whey + 80g carbs from Gatorade
6pm-8 pm:
2 pop-Tarts
2 cups of Jasmine Rice, 8oz chicken, soy sauce
6 chocolate chip pancakes + syrup
11pm: 2 scoops whey

While cutting, I ended up eating around 2500kcal, with 250g Carbs. The new meal plan will be about 3100kcal with 400g Carbs (I’m going to ramp up to this in hte coming weeks). I lift 6x a week, so my one off day, I’ll probably only eat <200g Carbs. Thoughts? Critiques?

I also take 4 fishoil a day, a multi, and am getting creatine tomorrow, which i have no idea how to use effectively lol (Will probably just do what Kiefer recommends in the book)
[/quote]

I think since you are coming from SA, you are probably less likely to ‘over do it’ Density Bulking (aka do it as the book is written, IMO). That said, I’d be interested in seeing how it works out for you for lean mass gains.

Do you have any set goals? X lbs by Y time with Z changes in bf% or anything like that?[/quote]

Not any real set goals that are specific. Before the cut, I used CBL to recomp (lose a good deal of BF while staying in the 190-195 range). So I’ll just steadily add a few lbs every month, try to stay in this BF%, and continue to get stronger on my main lifts. I have a lot of faith in this diet, as it’s worked great for me, so I believe Kiefer when he says you can add a good deal of BW and stay the same BF% with it.

323

[quote]kurtis1984 wrote:
Hey, so how much do people weigh, and how much protein approximately is everyone eating?[/quote]

160lbs at about ~10% body fat (I’m really short).

On CBL days, it normally ends up at about 180-200g of protein.

On rest days, right around 160-180g.