Carb Back Loading 2.0

Nutrition
264

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Has anyone got any recent progress pics? I know there are testimonials on the site and some before and after pics, but was just looking if someone had something more recent?

I have been doing this for a little over 12 days and have noticed my strength is the same, only recently I am in the zone with training and not sluggish like at the start, and most importantly some tightening of the skin around the stubborn fat zones.

Has someone got a 1 month CBL pre post pic or two months etc… When does one notice significant change?[/quote]

I got a pic of me about 3 weeks before starting the carb depletion stage, and I’ll do a comparison shot around November/December.
Question - When in the carb depletion stage, do we still take the post-workout shake? maybe with only 20g of dextrose?

265

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Has anyone got any recent progress pics? I know there are testimonials on the site and some before and after pics, but was just looking if someone had something more recent?

I have been doing this for a little over 12 days and have noticed my strength is the same, only recently I am in the zone with training and not sluggish like at the start, and most importantly some tightening of the skin around the stubborn fat zones.

Has someone got a 1 month CBL pre post pic or two months etc… When does one notice significant change?[/quote]

I think you’ll get plenty of people with fat loss results from CNS/SA.

However, I’ve yet to see decent results gaining… even from myself. I think a member posted on the DH forum that he gained 15lbs with 50/50 lbm/fat in 3mo. I’m sure in half that time he could lose the fat, and 1-2 lbs lbm (water, glycogen, whatever), which would net him about 6lbs lbm in 4.5 mo. Not really anything ground breaking, IMO.

266

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Has anyone got any recent progress pics? I know there are testimonials on the site and some before and after pics, but was just looking if someone had something more recent?

I have been doing this for a little over 12 days and have noticed my strength is the same, only recently I am in the zone with training and not sluggish like at the start, and most importantly some tightening of the skin around the stubborn fat zones.

Has someone got a 1 month CBL pre post pic or two months etc… When does one notice significant change?[/quote]

I got a pic of me about 3 weeks before starting the carb depletion stage, and I’ll do a comparison shot around November/December.
Question - When in the carb depletion stage, do we still take the post-workout shake? maybe with only 20g of dextrose?[/quote] No, you don’t take the dextrose after a workout. You need to remain in a completely ULC state for at least 4-5 days in order to decrease the response of FAS (fatty acid synthase) and that won’t happen if you stimulate it with CHOs.

I have some pictures up on my D/H page, but it’s only about two months into CBL.

You can’t really cookie cutter this approach, as it’s going to be different for everyone, and that being said, how you approach this nutritional protocol is going to make you or break you. A lot of my findings from CBL is that people are using it as an excuse to eat like crap, AlL the time, which is the wrong answer. Yes, you want to have some high glycemic carbs post workout and so on and so forth, but you can’t get rid of all the extra nutrient portions that you get from eating ‘real food’ or you’re going to gain fat.

I read and commented on the above log. And I thought his results were pretty good honestly. You don’t see a lot of weight gain in people that have been training for a long time, and then shoot up 15lbs, with a 1:1 ratio? Have you ever heard of bulking up where you get 10lbs of muscle mass, but pack on an additional 20lbs of fat. I have, definitely, and that was from not really focusing on every aspect of CBL (ie. he was drinking some nights, using low glycemic carbs, etc), but he still has some positive results.

CBL and CN are both great programs, but they’re only as good as the person implementing them. Some people are going to do well, because they track their progress, they keep good logs, they workout like beasts, and they back load properly, they know when they’ve had too much and take an ULC day, and follow the right protocols (ie. they aren’t drinking, eating refined sugars and such, etc). Some people are getting fat because they’re just eating too much, or not following along with the right protocols. Sorry that was long sentence. LOL.

Keep it simple and regulated and you’ll do fine. Go crazy every night, and yeah, you’re probably going to end up looking like everyone else–fat, bloated, and weak.

Use CBL and CN just like any other tool. They take time to develop and tailor to your particular needs, but they are not overnight solutions. So, when someone says, I’ve been on this program for 12 days and I haven’t noticed anything…well, what do you expect a 12 pack in 12 days…sorry, the body doesn’t work that way. I’d say about 4-6 weeks into any program is about the minimal amount of time where you’re going to notice solid results either way. No one has ever built a superhuman body over night, no matter what the next supplement company comes out and tells you on their labeling.

267

Gremlin1267 - I hope you weren’t quoting me. Even if you were paraphrasing what I said; at no point did I say I haven’t noticed anything, in fact I said I’ve noticed some tightening of the skin around the lower abdominal area (which is good).

I was merely asking if anyone on this thread had been on it for a couple of months (only) i.e. in the early days still and had some progress pics.

If this sounds a bit ranty, well it’s supposed to. I don’t want to be put in the same category as the newbies who expect sudden gains. I’m In it for the very long run. Just seeing short term goals is a good sign one is on the right track.

I train 5 days (full body split) over 6 (Don’t like having to back to back off days). I like to think I train with a lot of intensity as I don’t ever go through the motions or give a half arsed effort, I just can’t do it.

My Diet - which is obviously the foundation and core of any training plan( CBL)

7am - Wake
9am - Black Coffee
11.30am - Coffee and Cream
12.30pm - 300g Chicken, tomatoes, green pepper, lettuce and cucumber. (chkn cooked in butter) Occasionally add cheese.
6pm - Train
7pm stop training
7.30pm - 100g maltodextrin, 50g whey
8.30pm - carb back load, but this includes predominantly clean foods; white rice, cereal, new potatoes, ice cream, maltodextrin, dates etc… I don’t really binge on crap like cookies, turnovers, pizzas, chocolate etc…
10pm - stop eating.

If what I do is not optimal then please feel free to point it out. But to say I don’t try hard or am deluded as to the effort and time that is required to achieve my goal, is simply not true.

268

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Gremlin1267 - I hope you weren’t quoting me. Even if you were paraphrasing what I said; at no point did I say I haven’t noticed anything, in fact I said I’ve noticed some tightening of the skin around the lower abdominal area (which is good).

I was merely asking if anyone on this thread had been on it for a couple of months (only) i.e. in the early days still and had some progress pics.

If this sounds a bit ranty, well it’s supposed to. I don’t want to be put in the same category as the newbies who expect sudden gains. I’m In it for the very long run. Just seeing short term goals is a good sign one is on the right track.

I train 5 days (full body split) over 6 (Don’t like having to back to back off days). I like to think I train with a lot of intensity as I don’t ever go through the motions or give a half arsed effort, I just can’t do it.

My Diet - which is obviously the foundation and core of any training plan( CBL)

7am - Wake
9am - Black Coffee
11.30am - Coffee and Cream
12.30pm - 300g Chicken, tomatoes, green pepper, lettuce and cucumber. (chkn cooked in butter) Occasionally add cheese.
6pm - Train
7pm stop training
7.30pm - 100g maltodextrin, 50g whey
8.30pm - carb back load, but this includes predominantly clean foods; white rice, cereal, new potatoes, ice cream, maltodextrin, dates etc… I don’t really binge on crap like cookies, turnovers, pizzas, chocolate etc…
10pm - stop eating.

If what I do is not optimal then please feel free to point it out. But to say I don’t try hard or am deluded as to the effort and time that is required to achieve my goal, is simply not true. [/quote]

No, sorry T-L-H, that wasn’t referencing you. I was just trying to point out to some people trying out CBL that it’s not an immdediate process. I guess I’ve been seeing so many comments on the boards here and there that I just wanted to go off on a rant about progression and getting to the right level of individualism in everyone’s own protocol. It wasn’t about you’re program personally.

I’m a little edgy these days. I’ve been deployed for far too long and even the gym is starting to piss me off. The Crossfitters that can’t Oly lift to save their arse. The 'tards that are playing grab arse next to me while I’m overhead pressing. I’m losing man…so going to go postal if I don’t make my leave dates.

Anyway, I would say your dietary scheme looks really good actually. Matches the protocol to a T!

269

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Gremlin1267 - I hope you weren’t quoting me. Even if you were paraphrasing what I said; at no point did I say I haven’t noticed anything, in fact I said I’ve noticed some tightening of the skin around the lower abdominal area (which is good).

I was merely asking if anyone on this thread had been on it for a couple of months (only) i.e. in the early days still and had some progress pics.

If this sounds a bit ranty, well it’s supposed to. I don’t want to be put in the same category as the newbies who expect sudden gains. I’m In it for the very long run. Just seeing short term goals is a good sign one is on the right track.

I train 5 days (full body split) over 6 (Don’t like having to back to back off days). I like to think I train with a lot of intensity as I don’t ever go through the motions or give a half arsed effort, I just can’t do it.

My Diet - which is obviously the foundation and core of any training plan( CBL)

7am - Wake
9am - Black Coffee
11.30am - Coffee and Cream
12.30pm - 300g Chicken, tomatoes, green pepper, lettuce and cucumber. (chkn cooked in butter) Occasionally add cheese.
6pm - Train
7pm stop training
7.30pm - 100g maltodextrin, 50g whey
8.30pm - carb back load, but this includes predominantly clean foods; white rice, cereal, new potatoes, ice cream, maltodextrin, dates etc… I don’t really binge on crap like cookies, turnovers, pizzas, chocolate etc…
10pm - stop eating.

If what I do is not optimal then please feel free to point it out. But to say I don’t try hard or am deluded as to the effort and time that is required to achieve my goal, is simply not true. [/quote]

No, sorry T-L-H, that wasn’t referencing you. I was just trying to point out to some people trying out CBL that it’s not an immdediate process. I guess I’ve been seeing so many comments on the boards here and there that I just wanted to go off on a rant about progression and getting to the right level of individualism in everyone’s own protocol. It wasn’t about you’re program personally.

I’m a little edgy these days. I’ve been deployed for far too long and even the gym is starting to piss me off. The Crossfitters that can’t Oly lift to save their arse. The 'tards that are playing grab arse next to me while I’m overhead pressing. I’m losing man…so going to go postal if I don’t make my leave dates.

Anyway, I would say your dietary scheme looks really good actually. Matches the protocol to a T!

[/quote]

Haha yeah, seeing people do exercises with incorrect/bad form doesn’t bug me - it used to, I mean c’mon there is a ton of info on the web as to how to do them. Nowadays, especially with the Olympics gone there are a lot of new people at the gym pissing about. On the phone whilst laying on a bench, leaning on the weights having an extended convo, no one seems to put their weights back…its a f*****g joke. Then after a weeks long training, checking themselves out in the changing room mirror complaining they ain’t Arnold!

Thanks, it’s taken 12 days to perfect it (I used the term perfection loosely) and at no point in this new diet am I hungry which is awesome.

270

[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
Has anyone got any recent progress pics? I know there are testimonials on the site and some before and after pics, but was just looking if someone had something more recent?

I have been doing this for a little over 12 days and have noticed my strength is the same, only recently I am in the zone with training and not sluggish like at the start, and most importantly some tightening of the skin around the stubborn fat zones.

Has someone got a 1 month CBL pre post pic or two months etc… When does one notice significant change?[/quote]

I got a pic of me about 3 weeks before starting the carb depletion stage, and I’ll do a comparison shot around November/December.
Question - When in the carb depletion stage, do we still take the post-workout shake? maybe with only 20g of dextrose?[/quote] No, you don’t take the dextrose after a workout. You need to remain in a completely ULC state for at least 4-5 days in order to decrease the response of FAS (fatty acid synthase) and that won’t happen if you stimulate it with CHOs.

I have some pictures up on my D/H page, but it’s only about two months into CBL.

You can’t really cookie cutter this approach, as it’s going to be different for everyone, and that being said, how you approach this nutritional protocol is going to make you or break you. A lot of my findings from CBL is that people are using it as an excuse to eat like crap, AlL the time, which is the wrong answer. Yes, you want to have some high glycemic carbs post workout and so on and so forth, but you can’t get rid of all the extra nutrient portions that you get from eating ‘real food’ or you’re going to gain fat.

I read and commented on the above log. And I thought his results were pretty good honestly. You don’t see a lot of weight gain in people that have been training for a long time, and then shoot up 15lbs, with a 1:1 ratio? Have you ever heard of bulking up where you get 10lbs of muscle mass, but pack on an additional 20lbs of fat. I have, definitely, and that was from not really focusing on every aspect of CBL (ie. he was drinking some nights, using low glycemic carbs, etc), but he still has some positive results.

CBL and CN are both great programs, but they’re only as good as the person implementing them. Some people are going to do well, because they track their progress, they keep good logs, they workout like beasts, and they back load properly, they know when they’ve had too much and take an ULC day, and follow the right protocols (ie. they aren’t drinking, eating refined sugars and such, etc). Some people are getting fat because they’re just eating too much, or not following along with the right protocols. Sorry that was long sentence. LOL.

Keep it simple and regulated and you’ll do fine. Go crazy every night, and yeah, you’re probably going to end up looking like everyone else–fat, bloated, and weak.

Use CBL and CN just like any other tool. They take time to develop and tailor to your particular needs, but they are not overnight solutions. So, when someone says, I’ve been on this program for 12 days and I haven’t noticed anything…well, what do you expect a 12 pack in 12 days…sorry, the body doesn’t work that way. I’d say about 4-6 weeks into any program is about the minimal amount of time where you’re going to notice solid results either way. No one has ever built a superhuman body over night, no matter what the next supplement company comes out and tells you on their labeling.[/quote]

He was actually a noob to lifting and was doing Starting Strength according to his log. His Squat went from like 95 to 200.

Never the less, any bulk I’ve ever attempted has netted 50/50 gains and I was never satisfied with the results. I guess that’s why I was frustrated by achieving pretty much the same results when I attempted gaining on it. I never even hit my delta weight carb limit.

I’m sure CBL can be modified by throwing in an ULC day here and there and limiting backloads on certain days to achieve more optimal results. However, I guess I feel like there are less restrictive diets that can net the same gains.

Back to my original comment. I do think it’s a good template for losing fat. I even mention it in the results section of the book.

271

[quote]animus wrote:
To my understanding, Kiefer recommends plain black coffee at the start of your day (maintain the fast). Late morning/a bit before lunch is when you take the Kiefer coffee with the coconut oil. yes, technically, this is when you break the fast.

Question: what do you guys eat/take for your pre-workout P/F? I’ve been experimenting and haven’t made a whole lot of success on something that works for providing me quite as much energy as I need before the workout.[/quote]

Animus, I think I may have accidentally reported you to the MODS…sorry if I did. They should really separate the buttons for quote and report. In my overcaffeinated state right now, I’m a bit shaky on the trigger.

As per your question: accelerator shake all the way. If I’m feeling low before a workout, 10g whey isolate + coffee + 5g creatine + 1T MCT oil…BAM!

Most anything else will give you an insulin response that you won’t want if you’re trying to lose BF. However, if you’re density bulking the odds are it won’t matter too much what you start.

Some people like the intra WO shake, IOT get their enzymes going naturally, and then start supplementing with whey isolate and leucine in the middle. If you add CHO to it, you may get hypoglycemic in your workout though…not recommended unless you’re towards the very end of your workout.

272

Finally spent the 60 bucks and bought the book. Glad I did… lots of details to the program that I didn’t catch researching online. These details probably make the difference between success and failure. I’m actually starting the prep phase over tomorrow so I can do this thing by the book.

273

1414×2121 747 KB

When you are in prep phase do I still stay at 30grms of carbs a day even after I do a heavy metabolic lifting session? should I try and stack my 30grams towards post workout?

ps I am a bikini competior in the off season trying to put muscle on in all the right places while keeping my BF low

Thanks!!

274

[quote]fitcoachmichele wrote:
When you are in prep phase do I still stay at 30grms of carbs a day even after I do a heavy metabolic lifting session? should I try and stack my 30grams towards post workout?

ps I am a bikini competior in the off season trying to put muscle on in all the right places while keeping my BF low

Thanks!![/quote]

30g carbs total, lift, cardio, rest, doesn’t matter
and with 30g, doesn’t really matter when you have them, but more likely throughout the day from fibrous veggies and incidentals

275

I’ve been running CBL based on what i have read on here and listened to in the podcasts, but I just picked up the book, so I’ll see how far off I have been. So far so good, however.

276

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]fitcoachmichele wrote:
When you are in prep phase do I still stay at 30grms of carbs a day even after I do a heavy metabolic lifting session? should I try and stack my 30grams towards post workout?

ps I am a bikini competior in the off season trying to put muscle on in all the right places while keeping my BF low

Thanks!![/quote]

30g carbs total, lift, cardio, rest, doesn’t matter
and with 30g, doesn’t really matter when you have them, but more likely throughout the day from fibrous veggies and incidentals[/quote]

There was a question in that post? Dont know how i missed it!

277

right not now im backloading with a 700g carb daily trying to gain some weight. i generally dont have a big appetite so i get a lot of my carbs from maltodextrin 230-250g to be exact.

my question is how much is too much maltodextrin and also my friend keeps going on about hows unhealthy all that suagr is for me is there any truth to this long term.

278

[quote]dudsman wrote:

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]fitcoachmichele wrote:
When you are in prep phase do I still stay at 30grms of carbs a day even after I do a heavy metabolic lifting session? should I try and stack my 30grams towards post workout?

ps I am a bikini competior in the off season trying to put muscle on in all the right places while keeping my BF low

Thanks!![/quote]

30g carbs total, lift, cardio, rest, doesn’t matter
and with 30g, doesn’t really matter when you have them, but more likely throughout the day from fibrous veggies and incidentals[/quote]

There was a question in that post? Dont know how i missed it!
[/quote]

after 5 mins of staring at her pic, I figured she deserved a reply :wink:

279

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
well, bought and read the book this morning (very reasonable price, too), going to go back over it and take notes. But now I’m not surprised I haven’t made the progress I thought I would have done by now. All the timings and foods i thought were supposed to help me I had got mixed up or just plain wrong.

I seriously recommend the purchase of this book. [/quote]

also check out dangerouslyhardcore facebook page, Ron Fuller helps out everyone and will change your results (improve) with small tweaks.

280

[quote]Meni69 wrote:

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
well, bought and read the book this morning (very reasonable price, too), going to go back over it and take notes. But now I’m not surprised I haven’t made the progress I thought I would have done by now. All the timings and foods i thought were supposed to help me I had got mixed up or just plain wrong.

I seriously recommend the purchase of this book. [/quote]

also check out dangerouslyhardcore facebook page, Ron Fuller helps out everyone and will change your results (improve) with small tweaks.[/quote]

I know this is going to sound stupid but how do I get to their facebook page. I typed in dangerously hardcore and csn’t come up with it. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

281

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]Meni69 wrote:

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
well, bought and read the book this morning (very reasonable price, too), going to go back over it and take notes. But now I’m not surprised I haven’t made the progress I thought I would have done by now. All the timings and foods i thought were supposed to help me I had got mixed up or just plain wrong.

I seriously recommend the purchase of this book. [/quote]

also check out dangerouslyhardcore facebook page, Ron Fuller helps out everyone and will change your results (improve) with small tweaks.[/quote]

I know this is going to sound stupid but how do I get to their facebook page. I typed in dangerously hardcore and csn’t come up with it. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.[/quote]

I sent you the link thru PM. You can try adding DH Kiefer too.

282

Hey guys here isnanlittle pickle for me, i basically eat already how the prep phase is, shit load of veggies and fats protein etc, all im not doing is fasting in the morning, now before i start this prep phase do you think inshould smash some more carbs a few days earlier that way i get more out of the prep? Also i have gone through thos whole thread and not one person has spoke. A out booze!

I tend to have a binge on every second saturday night with vodka soda waters 60kcals per drink, now, is this going to fuck things up!? What is the effects, i know martin berkhan wrote a really interesting article on lean gains about ti ans says its fine if you dont have much carbs and fats for the day and protein as much as you like, any help would be ace!!!

Cainooo

283

Alcohol has deleterious effects on your hormones/T-levels, so it interferes with muscle production/fat loss. While I’m not a fan of going nun-like, I think if you’re going to be serious about something, then spend a month or two being really serious about it. That means no alcohol. Afterward, you can start reintroducing it in moderation.