[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Anyone using Anaconda w/ carb backloading? I freaking love Anaconda and doubt I’ll ever use anything else for peri-workout. It has 45g carbs in it per 2 scoops.[/quote]
One of his meal plans if you train 6pm or later has a prewo meal w/ carbs. I would think it would be ok if you trained late if you maybe did 1 scoop w/ some MCT oil 30 mins pre, and a scoop during.
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
really? no to bcaa? it is usually recommended during fasted training [/quote]
Yeah, it’s one of the key things to making CBL work. No insulin spikes. I have the article somewhere, but regular BCAAs will spike insulin, which you don’t want. Like I said get the book. It will help you understand the procedure better, and what stuff to look out for that you don’t get from just browsing the forums.
I tried going at it a while without getting the book, and it was a good start and I got the basic premise, but for the full outlook get the book and then you don’t have to waste so much time trying to piece together all the little tidbits that you can get from reading all the forum BS and stipulation, you can just focus on what you need to do for your body and then post questions about how to manipulate the procedure based on your own response.
[/quote]
Although BCAA’s spike insulin i would recommend sipping on BCAA’s towards the end of your training. This is how kabuki warrior incorporates them. You need leucine anyways, keifer says it at least.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
hmm, i may just.
To be honest, mate, I wouldn’t even have listened to you had you not a training log (with pics) on this site, as the ‘no bcaa’ is contrary to everything else i have read on fasted training for the past 2 years[/quote]
No worries. You always have to look the part. What works for me may not work for you, but Keifer doesn’t recommend BCAA.
The real issue that I saw is that you train in the morning. Hence you don’t want to spike insulin levels in the morning for it will break your fast by stimulating insulin.
I tried to go with some whey isolate (10g); creatine (5g); and coffee PWO IOT delay muscle catabolism, but I switched to MCT Oil (coconut oil) for my AM workout IOT increase fat loss efforts. I just don’t think it’s worth it to delay your results by stimulating insulin levels to the extreme at least in the morning. If you break your fast in the morning early through intake of amino acids and/or carbohydrate you’re not going to get into fat burning mode again until about 30-60 minutes after the insulin levels go down. I would just take advantage of the chance to burn through the bodyfat.
However, a caveat I will point out that once you get to lower levels of BF% (<10%) this may not be the right answer. It all depends on how much BF you have and how well your body is regulating the overall level of fat mass. If your body senses that you’re starving you will start losing muscle mass. However, I think the CBL is countering the muscle mass lost by replenishing the stores of glycogen at night time. The body may not have enough time to sense that you’re essentially tricking it into losing bodyfat, while holding onto the fat mass.
Resistance training will stimulate both MPB and MPS at the same time. It takes nutrients to get into the anabolic stage where MPS dominates–so at least you delay the MPB response with some amount of MPS through AM workouts. The topic is still up for discussion though as to when and where MPB will take into effect once you get into those lower levels of BF%. Keifer mentions a possible protein storage mechanism in the body in the splanic bed, but I haven’t seen any research to really confirm this aspect. At any rate…that’s the reason I didn’t recommend the BCAA in AM workouts.
If your workouts were in the PM though, BCAA would essentially work, since you would want an insulin spike; however, the recommended mixture is leucine, creatine, and whey isolate.
How effective would maltodextrin be for back loading?
My plan:
Wake 7am
Meal 1 @ 12pm Salad, Flax & Chicken, mixed nuts (150g)
Meal 2 @ 4pm Salad, Flax & Chicken, mixed nuts (150g)
Pre workout supplement (Superpump) for that boost during training.
WORKOUT @ 6pm - Heavy resistance training.
Post Workout (50g Whey, 50g Maltodextrin)
Meal 3 @ 7pm Salad, Chicken & Large Sweet Potato OR Rice
Between 8.30pm-9.30pm Deserts…all kinds of deserts. (I read dates are high on the GI)
Meal 4 @ 9.30pm 50g Whey, 50g Maltodextrin
Bed at 11 to get me some Growth Hormone spikes 
Aim is to minimise fat gain whilst putting on some lean muscle. Would I therefore need to go low carb of off days? I train 5 times a week.
Bromontana and Ryancxg, I sent you guys PMs, did you get them?
Hey guys do you guys eat all your carbs in one meal or spread it out over two?
And lately I’ve been pushing the amount of food I can eat. I’m at the point where I can’t move for the next half hour after eating, but still no change in weight. Think I should dial it back?
[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Anyone using Anaconda w/ carb backloading? I freaking love Anaconda and doubt I’ll ever use anything else for peri-workout. It has 45g carbs in it per 2 scoops.[/quote]
I just start sipping it until midway through your lifting session, Like today I did
Strength Work
Flat Bench - 2 tops sets
CGBP - 2 top sets
Incline Bench - 2 top sets
(Start sipping carb/protein shake)
Pump work
Tricep Circuit
Shoulder Circuit
So for an hour workout, I start drinking it 20-30 mins in after my ‘heavier’ lifts. Keifer seems to be fine with that.
[quote]TrapsLatsnHat wrote:
How effective would maltodextrin be for back loading?
My plan:
Wake 7am
Meal 1 @ 12pm Salad, Flax & Chicken, mixed nuts (150g) *Get rid of the chicken and mixed nuts. You need fattier cuts of meat. Try beef or chicken with the skin on, chicken wings, and bacon. Ratio of protein to fats should be close to 1:1. Same for the next meal. All you have to run on here is the protein. And the nuts just get rid of them. They have too many carbs! 150g of mixed nuts = 38g of CHO, which is way more than you want this early.
Meal 2 @ 4pm Salad, Flax & Chicken, mixed nuts (150g)
Pre workout supplement (Superpump) for that boost during training. *Superpump has too many CHOs, I wouldn’t use it. Drink some coffee, caffeine pills, or some other stimulant w/o carbs.
WORKOUT @ 6pm - Heavy resistance training.
Post Workout (50g Whey, 50g Maltodextrin) *This is fine. Actually it is recommended. Whey isolate is the chosen whey, but I think regular old whey will work fine in this context. You might want to include creatine and a small dose of caffeine here too.
Meal 3 @ 7pm Salad, Chicken & Large Sweet Potato OR Rice
Between 8.30pm-9.30pm Deserts…all kinds of deserts. (I read dates are high on the GI)
Meal 4 @ 9.30pm 50g Whey, 50g Maltodextrin
Bed at 11 to get me some Growth Hormone spikes
Aim is to minimise fat gain whilst putting on some lean muscle. Would I therefore need to go low carb of off days? I train 5 times a week.
[/quote]
Your plan has a couple flaws in it. Take those out and input fattier meats for morning meals, remember fat:protein ONLY.
Maltodextrin is fine. I would add the additional supplementation at the PWO period. And skip the Superpump, it’s garbage.
[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
Hey guys do you guys eat all your carbs in one meal or spread it out over two?
And lately I’ve been pushing the amount of food I can eat. I’m at the point where I can’t move for the next half hour after eating, but still no change in weight. Think I should dial it back? [/quote]
I would spread out your carb load meals into two meals, but this depends on your goals too. If you’re trying to lose BF (which I take is the case), I would only have a small backload in one meal. Within about 2-4hours post workout.
If you’re trying to gain, I would push it to two meals from 2-6hours. Your body can assimilate some carbs easier than others too, so play with that. I generally stay away from certain foods, even though I know they’ll spike insulin like crazy, I just can’t digest them fast. Like potatoes, I can eat half a potato and be so full that it’ll just sit in my stomach for hours. Great if you want to lose weight but not if you’re trying to load. So, I eat some bread, croissants, pastries. Last night I had a 6" loaf of pane de chocolat with 2scoops of ice cream, after dinner. I was full, but I could keep that down. Experiment with what is useful. I wouldn’t go so far with this if trying to cut though, at least not all the time.
v/r
Gremlin
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
Hey guys do you guys eat all your carbs in one meal or spread it out over two?
And lately I’ve been pushing the amount of food I can eat. I’m at the point where I can’t move for the next half hour after eating, but still no change in weight. Think I should dial it back? [/quote]
I would spread out your carb load meals into two meals, but this depends on your goals too. If you’re trying to lose BF (which I take is the case), I would only have a small backload in one meal. Within about 2-4hours post workout.
If you’re trying to gain, I would push it to two meals from 2-6hours. Your body can assimilate some carbs easier than others too, so play with that. I generally stay away from certain foods, even though I know they’ll spike insulin like crazy, I just can’t digest them fast. Like potatoes, I can eat half a potato and be so full that it’ll just sit in my stomach for hours. Great if you want to lose weight but not if you’re trying to load. So, I eat some bread, croissants, pastries. Last night I had a 6" loaf of pane de chocolat with 2scoops of ice cream, after dinner. I was full, but I could keep that down. Experiment with what is useful. I wouldn’t go so far with this if trying to cut though, at least not all the time.
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
Thank you
I only ask because I’m at the point where I feel ridiculously bloated and am taking massive dumps (sorry for the detail). Honestly at this point, other than from 12pm to 5pm, I’m like perpetually bloated.
Oh well, I think this is a good experience in fiuring out what works for my body and stuff.
well, bought and read the book this morning (very reasonable price, too), going to go back over it and take notes. But now I’m not surprised I haven’t made the progress I thought I would have done by now. All the timings and foods i thought were supposed to help me I had got mixed up or just plain wrong.
I seriously recommend the purchase of this book.
gremlin1267 - Thanks for your response.
150g nuts was a typo. it’s more a handful of mixed nuts and 150g of Chicken. I
I have a desk job therefore would not having a 1:1 fat:protein ration be detrimental?
[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
I only ask because I’m at the point where I feel ridiculously bloated and am taking massive dumps (sorry for the detail). Honestly at this point, other than from 12pm to 5pm, I’m like perpetually bloated.
Oh well, I think this is a good experience in fiuring out what works for my body and stuff. [/quote]
Have you tried taking pro-biotics just before your backload? Cant remember where i read it but some people are finding it easier to digest all the carbs if they do this. Im trying it atm.
[quote]dudsman wrote:
[quote]IFlashBack wrote:
I only ask because I’m at the point where I feel ridiculously bloated and am taking massive dumps (sorry for the detail). Honestly at this point, other than from 12pm to 5pm, I’m like perpetually bloated.
Oh well, I think this is a good experience in fiuring out what works for my body and stuff. [/quote]
Have you tried taking pro-biotics just before your backload? Cant remember where i read it but some people are finding it easier to digest all the carbs if they do this. Im trying it atm.[/quote]
You mean this one?
I have been playing around with CBL but have some doubts about a few things. The recommendation to avoid BCAA/luecine being one. I have seen a few studies that show no insulin response when taken during training.
^Big insulin spikes from leucine only come in combo with carbs… Kiefer is not god and isnt always right. Anyone remember the soy article?
Maf14, thanks. This is why I posted here, I knew there were some independent thinkers. And yes, it seems even when fasted and sedentary leucine barely registers an insulin response. My personal opinion is the cost benefit ratio strongly favors leucine/bcaa pre/intra-workout, even if training in the morning.
I have also wondered about the recommendation to wait until night to backload if training in the morning. I understand that insulin sensitivity in general, including for fat cells is lower at night, but is seems the real goal is to take advantage of the increased ratio of muscle to fat cell glucose sensitivity post-workout. While training, and back loading, at night may be optimal, glut4 stays active for many hours but rapidly declines after a couple.
[quote]Waylon wrote:
I have been playing around with CBL but have some doubts about a few things. The recommendation to avoid BCAA/luecine being one. I have seen a few studies that show no insulin response when taken during training.
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/281/2/E365.full[/quote]
This recommendation comes across to the general public as faulty. In a lot of situation Keifer says what is best by following his ‘perfected protocols’. The lack of BCAA is correct, as they will stimulate insulin. Leucine also stimulates an insulin response. See the responses in this article: http://www.ajcn.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf+html for overall food insulin responses. I was surprised by some of the responses to certain foods in stimulating insulin responses, like cheese and beef. Although high protein foods have an increased glucagon response as well…
Here’s another few for strictly leucine responses, there were more, but I’m not going to go through them all:
The effect of leucine enhancing MPS is well known and well researched; however, the amount of leucine to stimulate a spike in insulin is fairly small, 5-7g I believe from the research that I’ve looked at. Keifer doesn’t say not to supplement with BCAA and Leucine, in fact he recommends it. It just depends upon your goals and the time frame at which you’re trying to use it to your advantage. Leucine is a great supplement, but it’s all about the timing. That’s the key.
Thanks gremlin. I realize luecine can effect insulin, but the effect seems rather small. Of the studies you posted the first and third seem to be describing the combined effect of leucine and glucose. (Kind of hard to tell from the abstract.) Leucine has a multiplier effect when taken with carbs, 1+1=3 kind of thing. The second seems to deal with how the pathways by which leucine stimulates insulin are different from that used by carbs. My main interest was leucine/bcaa while training. Insulin release is inhibited during exercise and from the studies I posted earlier it seems this cancels out the small insulin response from luecine/bcaa.
[quote]ugaMMA411 wrote:
You mean this one?
Ahh that would be the one.