[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
So what’s this?
Eating carbs only at night now?
Where can I find some details?[/quote]
Check out John Keifer’s articles on Elite Fitness here: http://articles.elitefts.com/author/john-kiefer/
That’s where I got most of my initial information off of. Very good reads and insightful. It should give you at least a starting point to see if you want to try it.
v/r
Gremlin
[quote]BroMontana wrote:
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
[quote]BroMontana wrote:
EDIT: Never mind just got CBL from a buddy, started reading it immediately. [/quote]
Let me know what you think. I’m trying to wait until he updates his current book, but I’m so curious I just want to buy it just because…
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
Hey i can send you a copy if you want?
I skipped the prep phase and was having the most intense workouts of my life for the second week, however i started to do some research and changed my mind… and now im going to get the prep phase over with and do this thing right. However i have a question about the prep phase…
Am i supposed to simply remove carbs from the diet creating a calorie deficit or am i supposed to replace the carbs with fats and protein… im guessing just remove them, this would create the weight loss? i don’t know?
[/quote]
In regards to your questions:
You remove all carbs from the diet, like in the Anabolic Diet (<30g/day), that way you inhibit the enzymes for lipogenisis. It suppose to take about 7-12 days to get the enzymes unaclimated for lipogenisis. I believe if you’re already efficient at utilizing fat (as I have been primarily Paleo-Anabolic nutrition) you can just go right into using the protocol.
It’s not so much as creating a calorie deficit, it’s more about getting into a fat burning stage, where you increase your bodies reliance on using fat as a primary energy source.
The hardest part for me, was the fasting. I still can only make it about 5 hours before I have to eat something. Plus I don’t have any MCT/coconut oil to take in the mornings where I’m at…not even butter. This place blows!
However, the fast is becoming easier. I’m skeptical at how much fasting I can get away with though, being at lower levels of bodyfat. I’m under 10% now, so I have to be a little more careful with macronutrients, but I’ve still been CBL 5-6 nights a week with just total junk . No issue. BF% continues to decline.
Strength levels are unchange. Pumps are increased dramatically. Energy levels are prime, despite two workouts daily and doing some cardio (I’m not following the exact workout protocol Keifer recommends, so I’ve created my own Rogue program as he calls it with morning workouts). Cardio I have to keep up with for my APFT tests. So I’ve included more HIIT sessions and sprints, with less overall volume.
Current stats:
HT: 5’11"
WT: 201lbs
BF%: 9.1%
Deadlifts: 2 x 505
Squats: 3 x 405 (haven’t been pushing this one due to knee injury (<3months)
Bench: 3 x 295
Pullups WT/D: 5 x 50
*Biggest change is the fullness of muscles after backloading. Low CHO always leaves me so flat, even with cycling carbs every fourth day or so…plus my BF level stabilized at carb cycling.
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
[quote]BroMontana wrote:
[quote]gremlin1267 wrote:
[quote]BroMontana wrote:
EDIT: Never mind just got CBL from a buddy, started reading it immediately. [/quote]
Let me know what you think. I’m trying to wait until he updates his current book, but I’m so curious I just want to buy it just because…
v/r
Gremlin[/quote]
Hey i can send you a copy if you want?
I skipped the prep phase and was having the most intense workouts of my life for the second week, however i started to do some research and changed my mind… and now im going to get the prep phase over with and do this thing right. However i have a question about the prep phase…
Am i supposed to simply remove carbs from the diet creating a calorie deficit or am i supposed to replace the carbs with fats and protein… im guessing just remove them, this would create the weight loss? i don’t know?
[/quote]
In regards to your questions:
You remove all carbs from the diet, like in the Anabolic Diet (<30g/day), that way you inhibit the enzymes for lipogenisis. It suppose to take about 7-12 days to get the enzymes unaclimated for lipogenisis. I believe if you’re already efficient at utilizing fat (as I have been primarily Paleo-Anabolic nutrition) you can just go right into using the protocol.
It’s not so much as creating a calorie deficit, it’s more about getting into a fat burning stage, where you increase your bodies reliance on using fat as a primary energy source.
The hardest part for me, was the fasting. I still can only make it about 5 hours before I have to eat something. Plus I don’t have any MCT/coconut oil to take in the mornings where I’m at…not even butter. This place blows!
However, the fast is becoming easier. I’m skeptical at how much fasting I can get away with though, being at lower levels of bodyfat. I’m under 10% now, so I have to be a little more careful with macronutrients, but I’ve still been CBL 5-6 nights a week with just total junk . No issue. BF% continues to decline.
Strength levels are unchange. Pumps are increased dramatically. Energy levels are prime, despite two workouts daily and doing some cardio (I’m not following the exact workout protocol Keifer recommends, so I’ve created my own Rogue program as he calls it with morning workouts). Cardio I have to keep up with for my APFT tests. So I’ve included more HIIT sessions and sprints, with less overall volume.
Current stats:
HT: 5’11"
WT: 201lbs
BF%: 9.1%
Deadlifts: 2 x 505
Squats: 3 x 405 (haven’t been pushing this one due to knee injury (<3months)
Bench: 3 x 295
Pullups WT/D: 5 x 50
*Biggest change is the fullness of muscles after backloading. Low CHO always leaves me so flat, even with cycling carbs every fourth day or so…plus my BF level stabilized at carb cycling.[/quote]
Hey man, i am on day 9 of the prep phase of CBL, but i have only lost about 2 lbs… I am 12% BF at 209 lbs. I replaced my macros for carbs with fat and protein. Here is a question for you, what is your macronutrient breakdown looking like for the day?
BroMontana,
I’m not sure I understand the question. I’m not breaking down macronutrients, as in counting the number of CHO, PRO, FATs. I just follow the basic formula…
Wakeup–> coffee
Morning WO —> Post Workout drink (10g whey isolate, 5g creatine, 5g DAA in coffee)
Fast remaining 4-5 hours
BKFST–> 3c scrambled eggs, 6-7pcs bacon
LCH----> 6oz fatty meat (phillie steak meat, chicken wings, roast beef, chicken breast w/ skin, blah, blah)…
1lg salad with olive oil/vinegar + 1Tbacon bits
PM WO ----> Post Workout Shake (20g whey isolate, 5g creatine, 5g DAA) + (CHO Source, currently I’m eating some junk post workout–two cake donuts; two pieces of French Toast; Mr. Goodbar; Snickers, whatever…)
DNR—> 6oz meat (leaner than lunch or not); 1lg salad (not recommended, but I like my salads)+Vinegar (or) Creamy French;
I’ve been doing fast CHOs for dinner, since I don’t have a lot of access to good CHOs (2 Pita breads+ 2T Peanut Butter; 2 grilled cheese; 2 croissants…whatever). I respond better to breads and cereals for some reason. I tried steak potatoes one night and they don’t work very well for me since I can’t eat enough in my window of time to back load. Then about an hour later I’ll have some desert with some ice cream, cookies, again…whatever.
That’s the joy in this diet that I love. You don’t have to count macros. I thought I had overdone it one night and just went crazy with the food. I was still only about 4hours out from my postworkout state, but I was packing in the food. I was so full by the end and went to bed thinking I was going to be bloated and washed out the next morning. In reality, I was tight and full. No issues. I think you should listen to this podcast by Jason Phillips and Mike Raso (http://www.jasonphillipsfitness.com/interview-with-fitness-model-mike-raso/ ).
You don’t need to count macros. Just stick to the basic plan and make adjustments as necessary.
Wake
Fast at least 3 hours
Protein/Fat meals until you workout; 1:1 ratio protein:fats
Resistance train
Post Workout Shake (20-30g whey isolate; leucine; creatine) + Carbs
CHOs/Protein afterwards (I think there’s a limit on the window to consume carbs, but it ranges from about 2-6hrs for most people). Try to keep carbohydrate sources that don’t include fructose or HFCS. A little bit doesn’t matter, but I wouldn’t try backloading with a ton of fruit, soda, or candy.
If you want to get leaner, I would suggest keeping junk carbs within the 2hour anabolic window, when the muscles are primed for MPS and you really can’t store any fat. Then eat cleaner carbs like white rice, potatoes for dinner. Eat until you’re full. Experiment, go crazy and see how you feel. You should wakeup tight and dry. If you spill over make adjustments and see what carbs you ate the following evening…make changes. Like I did for the potatoe steak fries, not a good back load for me.
yeah i get all that 100% i am just worried that the prep phase isn’t going to pinpoint how many carbs i need to start eating when i begin the diet in a few days… but i guess i’ll just adjust it until it’s right… dont really know how im gunna be able to tell lol
BroMontana,
Eat until you are full. Have whatever you want for post-WO carbs with your shake. Then have some carbs with dinner. If you’re still hunger, have some more a short while later. This really doesn’t have to be rocket science–that’s the point.
It’s going to be pretty hard to screw up. Plus, how am I going to give you optimal macronutrient intake when I don’t know how many carbs it’s going to take to fill up YOUR frame?? What kind of carbs sources are going to work well with your body? Maybe you’ll do great off steak potatoes, I don’t so I avoid them. You have to experiment and just go by how you feel and look the next morning. There’s no secret formula or cookie cutter scheme to follow. Experiment, observe, learn, adjust, repeat.
BroMontana,
Eat until you are full. Have whatever you want for post-WO carbs with your shake. Then have some carbs with dinner. If you’re still hungry, have some more a short while later. This really doesn’t have to be rocket science–that’s the point.
It’s going to be pretty hard to screw up. Plus, how am I going to give you optimal macronutrient intake when I don’t know how many carbs it’s going to take to fill up YOUR frame?? What kind of carbs sources are going to work well with your body? Maybe you’ll do great off steak potatoes, I don’t so I avoid them. You have to experiment and just go by how you feel and look the next morning. There’s no secret formula or cookie cutter scheme to follow. Experiment, observe, learn, adjust, repeat.
I was sure I read somewhere that when you’re finished working out. You have a shake with dextrose, malto, or bananas with some whey, creatine and luecine, and then wait an hour from that time till you start the real back load?
Can someone who has the book chime in on this?
[quote]IC3MAN wrote:
I was sure I read somewhere that when you’re finished working out. You have a shake with dextrose, malto, or bananas with some whey, creatine and luecine, and then wait an hour from that time till you start the real back load?
Can someone who has the book chime in on this?[/quote]
IC3MAN,
Yes, this is true. A pure carb source of dextrose or malto is recommended post workout. All you need is something to spike the insulin levels…but here is the results from the book, “When deciding on the carbs added to the post-workout (PWO) shake, quality matters over quantity. The carb must spike blood sugar levels and insulin levels, i.e. must be high-glycemic and
insulinotropic. Any from the chapter on supplements meet these
criteria: dextrose, maltodextrin and waxy maize or rice.”
v/r
Gremlin
Thank you, Gremlin. You’re detailed posts have been very helpful! And that does clarify some things but I’m afraid I probably didn’t make my biggest question apparent.
Should I wait an hour between having my immediate dextrose and whey shake before continuing with the rest of my back load or can I have my insulin spike shake and just keep right on eating?
I think I must have read something about this hour of separation thing on Sean Hysons blog but I can’t remember and I don’t think I’ve seen anything about it anywhere else. I do remember that Sean had articulated the precise amount of like 3 ripe bananas or 40-60 grams of malto, or dextrose and “X” amount of protein in that insulin spike shake so I think that’s what’s confusing… Why the need to cap the dextrose in that shake if it was ok to go carb crazy at that time? Maybe 40-60 was the suggested minimum? Or maybe that’s all you need to get the maximal response from insulin?
Edit: Yeah, just looked back over your previous posts and it seems like the hour waiting period must be something I’m imagining.
IC3MAN,
I’m not sure I’ve read up on anything about an hour before you can start backloading. Generally most people can’t consume a lot of solid food after training; however, I’ve been slamming some donuts or croissants along with my protein shakes.
From my own research, MPS is maximally stimulated by 20g of whey isolate/protein or 5g leucine. Then to maximally stimulate insulin for MPS you only need about 10-20g (I believe I read that somewhere–can’t remember where though). But I don’t think you have anything to worry about if you wanted to carry on carb loading after your workout. In fact it might even be better if you got your post workout nutrition on, and then consumed as many carbs as possible before your anabolic window closes.
Now, Keifer hasn’t mentioned anything about the absolute limit of this anabolic window, but he does state that it’s about impossible to store bodyfat or cause lipogenesis within a 2hour window post workout. This makes sense, because your optimal MPS window is only 2hours. So, my theory is that the rest of the backloading is about refilling up muscle glycogen stores. Currently I’m trying to figure out how long it takes for glycogen to get deposited within the muscles…however, I’m pretty sure it is signaled right along with mTOR and the insulin spike after your workout. But after MPS is dying down, glycogen synthase takes over. So the more glycogen you’ve depleted from your workout the more you have to fill. There’s really no way that I know to be able to calculate this…however, depending on how you fill out in the morning, would determine how many carbs you can consume after a workout to fill it up. If you get your workouts right you can figure out the sweet spot for you in consuming carbohydrates by calculating how many carbs you ate the night before when you fill out. Or if you go over, you have a limit of how many carbohydrates you can consume. Does this make sense?
Is Kiefer against using cinnamon and apple cider vinegar with carbs meals ?
[quote]tolismann wrote:
Is Kiefer against using cinnamon and apple cider vinegar with carbs meals ?[/quote]
Ummm, not sure. I use cinnamon, along with a couple other people in the AM ULC portion of the day.
Apple cider vinegar I believe would be okay since it would not have any sugars in it.
v/r
Gremlin
Question: Would the Ebook be worth the purchase for me?
I’m sort of winging it at the moment, using what info i have gleaned from articles around the web. Aiming for fat loss while training high frequency and volume.
At the moment, its kind of working. Energy is high (fasted morning training) and I’m losing about half an inch off either around my belly button or around my hips (its alternating for some reason) a week.
Diet:
6am - 1pm: Training + 20-30g Bcaa
1pm - 6pm: 160g protein from shakes & 10 eggs
6 - 9pm: 1kg of chicken legs, 4-6 baked potatoes, mixed veg
I repeat: Would the Ebook be worth the purchase?
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
Question: Would the Ebook be worth the purchase for me?
I’m sort of winging it at the moment, using what info i have gleaned from articles around the web. Aiming for fat loss while training high frequency and volume.
At the moment, its kind of working. Energy is high (fasted morning training) and I’m losing about half an inch off either around my belly button or around my hips (its alternating for some reason) a week.
Diet:
6am - 1pm: Training + 20-30g Bcaa
1pm - 6pm: 160g protein from shakes & 10 eggs
6 - 9pm: 1kg of chicken legs, 4-6 baked potatoes, mixed veg
I repeat: Would the Ebook be worth the purchase? [/quote]
Yes, I would by the eBook. It’s worth the knowledge, plus you have a lot of gaps that you’re not filling in at the moment that could be fixed easily, and I’m not going to point all of them out. Just initially you have the basic idea, but there’s things that would be better explained by buying the book.
You’re not going to have as much success if you don’t know the whole process.
I will give you this one though…BCAA (no go). AM training will minimize results. Shakes and eggs are problematic for insulin spikes.
Sometimes you have to pay to play.
really? no to bcaa? it is usually recommended during fasted training
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
really? no to bcaa? it is usually recommended during fasted training [/quote]
Yeah, it’s one of the key things to making CBL work. No insulin spikes. I have the article somewhere, but regular BCAAs will spike insulin, which you don’t want. Like I said get the book. It will help you understand the procedure better, and what stuff to look out for that you don’t get from just browsing the forums.
I tried going at it a while without getting the book, and it was a good start and I got the basic premise, but for the full outlook get the book and then you don’t have to waste so much time trying to piece together all the little tidbits that you can get from reading all the forum BS and stipulation, you can just focus on what you need to do for your body and then post questions about how to manipulate the procedure based on your own response.
hmm, i may just.
To be honest, mate, I wouldn’t even have listened to you had you not a training log (with pics) on this site, as the ‘no bcaa’ is contrary to everything else i have read on fasted training for the past 2 years
[quote]tolismann wrote:
Is Kiefer against using cinnamon and apple cider vinegar with carbs meals ?[/quote]
I belieeve he has said not to use GDAs on CBL because they don’t descriminate between muscle and fat, so it would defeat the point of the diet.
Anyone using Anaconda w/ carb backloading? I freaking love Anaconda and doubt I’ll ever use anything else for peri-workout. It has 45g carbs in it per 2 scoops.