Capoeira Fighting

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Thanks for posting that Xen.

What I see is great head movement, strong evasion techniques, and hitting from unorthodox angles… there’s certainly shit that could be pulled from that and made useful.

Ain’t any bad arts, only bad fighters.

Surely a boxer can appreciate the difficulty in getting even simple things right. Can you remember your first left hook? Can you remember your first few fights?

Learing Capoeira techniques is damn difficult, full stop. Integrating them into a proper fight is near impossible. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but there are much, much easier ways of going about it.

As I probably should have stated at the beginning of my post, I do both. Boxing is awesome for kicking ass. Capoeira is awesome for the dance floor.
[/quote]

It’s very difficult, and yes integrating them into a PROPER fighting system is IMPROBABLE, but its not impossible. It’s actually more probable than most would assume. It just like ALL martial arts was created as a fighting art. Never forget that. No matter how watered down it may have become through generations…

So at some point it REALLY WAS USED TO FIGHT!

Capoeira in Brazil is like cardio kickboxing or pilates is to women in the USA. So a lot of the fight application has been forgotten about but there were ‘dog brothers’ style full contact capoeira tournaments before. It was also banned from being practice because people were being killed.

It has legitimacy but it requires a preternatural level of skill to be able to synthesize it together with other aspects of combat.

What we know is

1- YOU NEED WRESTLING (of some form, judo, greco, catch, whatever)

2- YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE OF SUBMISSIONS (to apply or avoid them, you need a very abundant knowledge of them)

3- YOU NEED STRIKING (standing and on the ground, defense, and offense)

4- YOU HAVE TO BE DANGEROUS IN EACH AREA! (gone are the days when you could get by with just ‘sub defense’, and an overhand right)

Muay thai and boxing sync together well because they both have jabs, straight rights, etc… there is a HUGE fundamental difference between the two, but they can enhance one another.

Other fighting arts contain the same basics, kicking and punching in VERY similar formats which is why they all end up looking nearly the same. Chinese Wushu with combat applications becomes Sanshou or Sanda, Karate becomes Kickboxing, etc.

But capoeira is just another beast.

Capoeira just needs to find how it syncs with the other forms of combat. It also needs to be put to the test to find the most high percentage techniques and evasion strategies that work the best.

I think you’d come up with something very much more conservative than the video I showed but it would still have applications that we would have wrote off previously as silly or impossible.

The problem is that you need someone with an already unorthodox style which is why I immediately thought of genki sudo. If you take an already unorthodox fighter with supernatural timing like that (seriously you need a straight up Jedi) you can come away with some amazing shit. Another person who could pull it off is Roy Jones Jr. Already unorthodox, stance is wide enough, footwork is surprisingly similar to jinga, is fast enough, great timing and athleticism.

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
I’m not saying it can’t be done, but there are much, much easier ways of going about it.

[/quote]

Agree 100% though, there are definitely more efficient ways to go about it. But the trickery, the game involved in the roda could be a limitless tool to the fighter who has the natural attributes required to use it to his advantage

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Good post. But it is the philosophy rather than the practice of the roda that is really adaptable to MMA. Roy Jones is already effective because he hits at unorthodox angles. Joe Frazier’s constant head movement made him a tough target without reference to another sport. I believe that the lessons that capoeria can to teach us have already been mastered by more effective martial arts.

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Good ass point duffy

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I’m starting up capoeira just for the general fitness/flexibility and acrobatic maneuvers. It’s a legitimate martial art and should add some wicked moves to my repertoire.

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Capoeira wasn’t made to look good in that movie Never Back Down, as posted in the OP’s link. But it is a worthwhile martial art.

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:

As I probably should have stated at the beginning of my post, I do both. Boxing is awesome for kicking ass. Capoeira is awesome for the dance floor.
[/quote]

I agree. I’ve seen Capoeira fighters take part in a few MMA fights and tournamentts. They’ve, overwhelmingly, had their asses handed to them.

You’ll never see a pure Capoeira fighter have any huge success in MMA, but SMALL portions of the art can be used successfully (strikes from unorthodox angles,evasion, etc…). I’m certainly not trashing the martial art because it has many great applications.

The history of Capoeira is a very interesting subject. The origins are often disputed.

http://capoeira.union.rpi.edu/history.php

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I played capoeira for 4 years and saw all kinds of stuff. What’s important to remember is that it has multiple levels. It has dancing/games and it has straight fighting. The problem is that what most of what you see is the breakdancing the the “capoeiraerobics”.

I liken capoeira to Tae kwon do or wushu. In the old country, people who do those arts take them very seriously and could be a serious threat. Here in America, practitioners tend to less serious or only into the art for recreational reasons. Even good capoeira acrobats tend to just be pretty good acrobats.

Real capoeiristas from Brazil are serious martial artists. My Mestre (Curisco), has great acrobatics, but is also built like a shit house, has ridiculous take downs and ludicrously heavy kicks. I’ve rolled with him before and he’s shown an amazing knack for positioning and avoiding submissions considering he’s never practiced jiujitsu or wrestling before. I’ve also sparred with him in standup and have watched him spar other people. His timing and footwork are ridiculous. The difference between him and your usual capoiera player is when he was practicing Capoeira, he was really practicing it as a martial art. He’s stated before that he would’ve liked to make a run at mixed martial arts, but its a whole other lifestyle he’d have to prepare for.

Anyway, Andre Gusmao happens to also be a Profesor in Capoeira and did quite well in the IFL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Gusmao

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Andre Gusmao has some legitimate BJJ skills as well as training in Muay Thai and Boxing.

He did do well in IFL, but lost his first fight in the UFC to Jon Jones. I think he has a contract for three more fights. I’d like to see him fight again.

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Capoeira is a style that with the time became less a martial art and more a game/dance. This doesnt mean that there isnt a fighting aspect, but ask someone who trains capoeira how many times he did sparring.

I trained capoeira for 5 years, but i changed to muay thai because the fight was being a small part of capoeira and thats the part i was interested.

Here is a guy who did well in MMA, this guy won a 8-men tournament fighting the BJJ champion (Bitetti) in the final (is the guy who is KOed in the end of video). This tournament had a lot of repercussion in Brazil at the time.

In the 30s-50s there are quite a few Capoeira guys who were competitive in MMA against BJJ, boxing etc…

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[quote]XiaoNio wrote:
I played capoeira for 4 years and saw all kinds of stuff. What’s important to remember is that it has multiple levels. It has dancing/games and it has straight fighting. The problem is that what most of what you see is the breakdancing the the “capoeiraerobics”.

I liken capoeira to Tae kwon do or wushu. In the old country, people who do those arts take them very seriously and could be a serious threat. Here in America, practitioners tend to less serious or only into the art for recreational reasons. Even good capoeira acrobats tend to just be pretty good acrobats.

Real capoeiristas from Brazil are serious martial artists. My Mestre (Curisco), has great acrobatics, but is also built like a shit house, has ridiculous take downs and ludicrously heavy kicks. I’ve rolled with him before and he’s shown an amazing knack for positioning and avoiding submissions considering he’s never practiced jiujitsu or wrestling before. I’ve also sparred with him in standup and have watched him spar other people. His timing and footwork are ridiculous. The difference between him and your usual capoiera player is when he was practicing Capoeira, he was really practicing it as a martial art. He’s stated before that he would’ve liked to make a run at mixed martial arts, but its a whole other lifestyle he’d have to prepare for.

Anyway, Andre Gusmao happens to also be a Profesor in Capoeira and did quite well in the IFL.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Gusmao [/quote]

I think most of that “but it was great in the old country” stuff is bollocks. I see videos of brazilian capoeira online. Looks exactly like what we do here. I think that using wushu to back up an argument about practical fighting is probably not very wise. I think that we can your mestre, being a mestre, has above average coordination and strength. I watch Andre Gusmao and think “where is the capoeira”? And I realise… it ain’t there…

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:

I think most of that “but it was great in the old country” stuff is bollocks. I see videos of brazilian capoeira online. Looks exactly like what we do here. I think that using wushu to back up an argument about practical fighting is probably not very wise. I think that we can your mestre, being a mestre, has above average coordination and strength. I watch Andre Gusmao and think “where is the capoeira”? And I realise… it ain’t there…

[/quote]

As i said in my previous post, capoeira today is somewhat far from its fighting aspects from the past. But people fail to understand is that the backflips, and other flashy stuff is part of capoeira game, like the music also is, but not part of the fight.

Capoeira most dangerous moves used to be (besides of kicks obviously) various types of sweeps (grabing the leg or not) and the headbutt, punches and open hand strikes such as slap to the ear are also used. In the past capoeira was known for knife fighting as much as for kicks and headbutts.

My point is just: even in the past when capoeira was used effectively on the streets and mma(vale-tudo), capoeira fighting is completely different from capoeira game.

Also, for those interested, search for fights of a guy named Jean Silva. He was a bjj guy who used some capoeira moves in his fights. He used to fight in Pride and Cage Rage.

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Personally speaking I wouldn’t even think about trying to use capoeira as a fighting art (the same can be said for a lot of other arts too but lets not get into that here) but I have to say it is one of the most fun and intensive cardio workouts I’ve ever done and it’s worth giving it a go just because it is so enjoyable :slight_smile:

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[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
I think most of that “but it was great in the old country” stuff is bollocks. I see videos of brazilian capoeira online. Looks exactly like what we do here. I think that using wushu to back up an argument about practical fighting is probably not very wise. I think that we can your mestre, being a mestre, has above average coordination and strength. I watch Andre Gusmao and think “where is the capoeira”? And I realise… it ain’t there…
[/quote]

I’m definitely one of those people who thinks traditional martial arts are often times inbred and in many cases worthless. However, compared to most traditional martial arts, capoeira is much younger and far less removed from the original application. The fact that Mestres that did most of their training in capoeira can be competitive in Vale Tudo must say something for that training. Great capoeiristas have stunning coordination and timing. It doesn’t mean a capoeirista has to ginga or throw kicks from a handstand to benefit from that art.

As for the game aspect of capoeira. I’ll whole heartedly agree that’s become the big focus for most players. But that’s kind of like the difference between cardio kickboxing and the real deal.

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[quote]edn wrote:
Personally speaking I wouldn’t even think about trying to use capoeira as a fighting art (the same can be said for a lot of other arts too but lets not get into that here) but I have to say it is one of the most fun and intensive cardio workouts I’ve ever done and it’s worth giving it a go just because it is so enjoyable :)[/quote]

I just had a try of it last Friday. Man it was a pretty good workout and I was sore for two days afterwards.

We did basic footwork (the jenga), some ground moves, cartwheels, the ‘L-kick’ (I don’t know its proper name), etc.

The history behind this art is that they hid the self-defense training within the ritual and dance.

The footwork is actually a method of how to sidestep or step towards or away from an enemy. It teaches you a rhythm. The arm moves during the jenga are your guard, and teach you how to always keep at least one arm up for guard to cover your jaw and body while the other arm and the torso can wind up to store energy for a punch. The acrobatics teach balance and advanced body control, and the kicks are pretty much the same as other martial arts kicks - using the legs as fast, flying weapons. This is what I’ve extracted from it so far.

It’s a way to have fun yes, but there is also serious combat hidden within it, if you know how to wire those moves into your neural system as a combat movement framework. It’s similar to how in Karate, they have their kata or forms - well capoeira’s kata is hidden within its dance rituals.

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Capoeira started in Brazil over 400 years ago when African slaves, most of them from Angola, were brought by the Portuguese to work at the coffee and sugar cane plantations.

Some slaves, who escaped, formed communities in the rainforest (Quilombos) and by combining their native rituals they developed the powerful fight to defend them and to free other slaves.

Many let themselves be arrested in order to teach this martial art to the other slaves, helping them in their escape. While being watched by the guards they had to hide their intention and disguise it as a dance, adding native ritual instruments and singing. They even developed different rhythms to alert the players if the guards were coming. It was then that they would change pace and turn it into more of a dance movement.

The guards watching the slaves could not imagine the danger of the “dance” nor that one day it would gain the confidence to win their freedom.