[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i feel like the whole 3 sets of 10, 4 sets of 6 etc, etc needs to be cleared up because i, like many many other people thought you were supposed to maintain that with the same working weight which is nearly impossible for most people to do, you just exhaust too fast if its any significant weight.[/quote]
No, YOU do.
Big difference.
Maybe you just do not know how to lift it hard.(take a look at Dave Tate’s interveiw). You have to be metally prepared. Do you ever get high when you are at the gym and see a hot girl and all of a sudden you are lifting something without even noticing you are lifting cause it feels light.
tons of good advice…
I didn’t read all the pages, but speed work helped me break the 400 mark. Throw on like 225, and do speed deadlifts for sets of 1-3. Another thing that helped me was zercher squats.
But rather than focus on 405, id suggest you stick with 385 and do more reps. Theres no need to do a max single unless you are competing, and you’ll be better off with sets of 3-6 or so.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
One other note about 5x5, the only version of that program that I’ve ever had any kind of success with (other than for rank beginners ala starting strength) is using a ramping format (i.e. Madcow’s version). So, even though you do 5 sets of 5 reps, only the last set is really a “work set”.
Like always seems to happen with pros training programs, there is a disconnect between what is intended/actually performed by those who make significant progress and how their program is interpreted.
In most cases, trying to do 5 sets of 5 reps with the same “working” weight is going to significantly slow your strength progression unless you are a volume freak (like Bauer or Waylander).
Sento, where are you getting that from? Bill Starr’s 5 x 5, a renowned strength program, is based on working weights throughout all the sets.
I personally use working weights on all sets of 5 x 5, 8 x 3, 15 x 2, 4 x 6, 6 x 4, etc. For me, it is much easier to gauge progress and to plan the next session. I’ve had great strength progression with this system.[/quote]
I’ve never liked the straight set model. The progression was always way too slow for my liking. Madcow’s version, which is “ramping” style (ala what BB’ers use) allows for much faster progression (at least in my experience).
Also, what I meant by progression was in terms of adding weight to the bar. How often are you adding weight to the bar while doing 5 sets with a 5RM (if you are even getting 5 reps on every set)? Not very often in my case (or at least not for a very extended period).
Now, if you only do 1 set of 5 with a 5RM (and the other 4 sets are essentially warm-ups to prepare for the working set), then it’s highly possible to add weight to the bar on a much more regular basis. Pretty easy to tell gauge progress and plan the next workout as well.
Got 5 reps, success, add weight next time.
Didn’t get 5 reps, use same weight and try to get 5 reps next time.
I realize that some programs/authors like to use accumulated fatigue, so you might use something like a 7RM for your 5x5, which would make the last set (maybe last couple sets) feel like a 5RM. But personally, I’d rather not use a lighter weight just so I can do more sets/reps with it. I’d rather just do the one all out ball busting set with as much weight as I can handle for as many reps as I can get.
In the end though, if it’s working for you, keep doing it.
These are all great deadlifting articles, read them!!
Diagnosis.
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//deadlift_diagnosis
Mastering the DL
Part 1
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//mastering_the_deadlift_part_i
Part 2
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//mastering_the_deadlift_part_ii
Part 3
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//mastering_the_deadlift_part_iii
Precision pulling
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
i feel like the whole 3 sets of 10, 4 sets of 6 etc, etc needs to be cleared up because i, like many many other people thought you were supposed to maintain that with the same working weight which is nearly impossible for most people to do, you just exhaust too fast if its any significant weight.[/quote]
Unfortunately, depending on who is writing it, it can mean multiple things. The semantics also get in the way. People will argue over what is a “working” set, some authors/coaches like using accumulated fatigue and actually intend that you do straight sets, most BB’ing articles in muscle mags are ghost written, etc…
If you look at what the majority of big, strong guys actually do though, most of them “ramp” up to one top all out set (maybe 2 in some cases), then maybe drop the weight down and do a burn-out set (not always, but sometimes).
Ronnie does it
Branch does it
Dave Henry does it
Johnnie Jackson does it
Ruhl does it
Mariusz does it
Levrone does it
Justin Harris does it
Kroc does it
and the list goes on…
If people want to do it a different way, that doesn’t hurt me any, and as long as they’re getting results, who am I to tell them to do otherwise. But I’m a big fan of modeling, and it’s tough deny that this is the way the majority of big guys train.
what is a “speed deadlift”?
i thought you were always supposed to lift as fast you could regardless of how fast the bar moves
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I realize that some programs/authors like to use accumulated fatigue, so you might use something like a 7RM for your 5x5, which would make the last set (maybe last couple sets) feel like a 5RM. But personally, I’d rather not use a lighter weight just so I can do more sets/reps with it. I’d rather just do the one all out ball busting set with as much weight as I can handle for as many reps as I can get.
In the end though, if it’s working for you, keep doing it.
I understand what you’re saying and don’t disagree. I guess I’m just in the “more ways to skin a cat” camp. I’m not a “go to failure” guy. You are. Many others are. No problem.
Funny thing about the 5 x 5 with working weight deal or rather let’s take tonight’s session for me, which was
A1. B.O. Rows 6 x 4 x 322
A2. One Arm 45 degree Incline DB Press 6 x 3 x 125
A3. Towel Chin 6 x 3 x Bodyweight (234)
A4. One Arm Floor DB Press 6 x 4 x 130
A5. Chins w/ 45 lbs DB 6 x 3
90 Second Rest between sets
My easiest sets were #4 and 5. Even with a thorough warm up my nervous system just doesn’t really start firing well until I’m several sets into it. My first two sets were actually the most difficult.
So I can see how your system would work but at the same time, mine has worked very well and I hardly ever get “fried”. I lift four times a week (right now on an upper/lower split) and am always fresh when going into the gym for the next session.
These numbers are well above a similar session a month ago and even a week ago. And way above what I did a year ago. I wish I had my log handy cuz I’d show you.
I’ve gained mass too. A year ago I was 205 - 212. Today I am 234 with ~ same bodyfat (on a 5’8" frame). Year before that I was 190. I’m 48.
It works. So does your system, I’m sure.[/quote]
Right on. Definitely keep doing what you’ve been doing, it’s obviously working for you. 
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
what is a “speed deadlift”?
i thought you were always supposed to lift as fast you could regardless of how fast the bar moves[/quote]
The term comes from Westside Barbell’s philosophy (at least they’re the most recent camp that has popularized it). It’s basically performing DL’s with 60-70% of 1RM with the sole purpose being to lift the weight as fast as possible while maintaining perfect form. Usually sets range from anywhere between 3-5 reps.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
what is a “speed deadlift”?
i thought you were always supposed to lift as fast you could regardless of how fast the bar moves
The term comes from Westside Barbell’s philosophy (at least they’re the most recent camp that has popularized it). It’s basically performing DL’s with 60-70% of 1RM with the sole purpose being to lift the weight as fast as possible while maintaining perfect form. Usually sets range from anywhere between 3-5 reps.[/quote]
not sure what benefits youd get out of pulling light for 3-5 reps
maybe 10-15
[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
LiveFromThe781 wrote:
what is a “speed deadlift”?
i thought you were always supposed to lift as fast you could regardless of how fast the bar moves
The term comes from Westside Barbell’s philosophy (at least they’re the most recent camp that has popularized it). It’s basically performing DL’s with 60-70% of 1RM with the sole purpose being to lift the weight as fast as possible while maintaining perfect form. Usually sets range from anywhere between 3-5 reps.
not sure what benefits youd get out of pulling light for 3-5 reps
maybe 10-15[/quote]
It’s supposed to develop the ability to power through sticking points on maximal lifts.
Go here and under “2005” articles, check out “speed work” for a more detailed explanation.
I had the same problem and what I did was actually cut out squats and focused on deads for about a month. Still did leg press but this gave my lower back more time for recovery. But I would deadift once a week but instead of doing sets of 4 or 5 with 385 I moved 390lbs and did 6 sets of singles. Then next week I pulled 395lbs 6 sets of singles then 400lbs for 10 sets of singles and then last week I pulled 405lbs for a single. Worked for me.
To all the Straight Sets vs Ramping up sets people… Why not just use BOTH in your training? e.g. I used 5x5 and similar protocols for a while, rotating exercises, and that worked. Then I switched to pyramids, and that gave me a good boost. Now I’m wave loading, and guess what… That, too, is good. I’m with Push - MANY ways to skin a cat!