I think it matters when people lie about their development because it leads so many young people astray.
If you are my age, you grew up reading muscle mags that had these huge, juiced monsters like Ronnie Coleman, the BBers and Joe Weider all maintaining that they were completely natural.
You would follow their workouts laid out in the mags and take the same supplements and lo and behold - nothing. At least nothing near the development they were showing.
It wasn’t that long ago that one of the Weiders was claiming that the Olympia was drug free, etc.
So lifting for many, many years without any idea the extent to which BBers and other sports figures used steroids totally threw me off. When I finally had my steroid epiphany, realized the true extent of steroid use, starting putting two and two together, I was pissed. I still can’t believe I missed it, right there in front of my face all the time. Looking back I knew so many people who were juicing and I didn’t even realize it at the time.
Let’s talk about some more of the specific indicators are of juiced vs non-juiced tranees. Most of us can spot the overall appearance of a user, but when it comes right down to it, what individual things do we look for? Extreme vascularity, overdeveloped shoulders is another that I notice a lot of, extreme water retention, bacne on 40 year old men… what else? What muscle groups tend to look easily unnatural? Traps?
I think you can always tell if someone is juicing or not. Our views on people who “use” will be different from those people who have never used AAS before. What I’m saying is, because I use gear, I know what to look for in someone who might be using gear as well (ie. bloat, acne, hardness, etc.) Now for those who have never used, they will always have a misconception.
I also agree with the hard work and dedication that goes into building physiques. Regardless if someone uses or not, I’m sure alot of blood, sweat, and tears has gone into their discipline and training.
As for the comment on Weider… his denial for drugs in the sport pissed me off big time YEARS ago. As a teen, I’d look up to guys like Wheeler and Levrone (who had just won pro cards back then). Weider would have articles in his mags like “Train like Kevin Levrone and get triceps like him!” Bullshit! I was crushed later on in life knowing I could NEVER be like Levrone unless I used alot of juice. I wanted to be BIG, and no article in any Weider publication was going to help me do that!
And along the lines of denial here, Warhorse mentioned it slightly. I honestly don’t know WHY some people refuse to admit that they use AAS. There is no shame in it! Should I be ashamed that I hit the tanning beds regularly and “fake n’ bake” (good grief) instead of laying out in the sun for hours?! No. Bottom line is, we do what we NEED to do to be at a stage we feel will make ourselves look the best, in our own personal views and preference.
So… can I tell if a guy is using? I’m sure to be 99% on the button…
…but then again, I’m too concerned about my own usage and my OWN goals to give a fuck about anyone else ROFL.
big powerful looking traps and calves-- those which look like they belong on a football player or other power trained atheletes, on a regular joe at the gym. Not to mention veins popping out of everywhere.
I appreciate the buzz over my pics, and I’ll get a lot more from every angle soon; but what everyone should realize is that these are what I call, “max pics.” By no means do I look like that all the time. We have hours and hours of film, and I only show a fraction of it. Those pics come from the perfect angle, with the perfect pose, with the light hitting me just right. I’m not saying that those are good poses, but those are the poses that showed me lookin’ the biggest. If you saw me shirtless unpumped, unflexed, you would proly reconsider. My arms are disproportional to my chest kinda, and my delts are not as big as if I juiced. Plus, I am sittin’ proly above 10% BF with not to big of tris unpumped, unflexed. So, just so you guys can measure whether or not someone is roided more accurately, know that I am not.
To add what mule said about his “best shots”: I notice myself that I look like a completely different person after a workout than before- the pump makes a huge difference in how I look. But a lot of the guys I knew who were juicing looked the same either way, always pumped. Plus I notice a lot of users have “redder” skin from the incresed blood volume… just an observation, thats all…
Pete
mule, points taken. More people should respond in this manner. I think everyone is “guilty” of showing only the best pics, taken at the best times etc. Most people with their shirts off, completely relaxed, look rough, regardless of their level.
Wonk wonk wa wa wonk wonk. You sound like Charlie Brown’s freakin teacher. Besides, you seem awfully defensive. What makes you think this post has anything to do with you at all? Oh wait…I did. Guess you have a place here on the steroid forum after all.
I am not trying to launch a verbal attack on you but this is something that has to be brought up. I am just wondering what the purpose of this post is. It seems you are slamming alot of people for being “on” when I believe you are “on” yourself. I say this because you posted a question on 3/02 under “After the pendulum” at 4:26 pm where you state you are “on a considerable amount of gear”. Now you post this question three hours later. I am sure alot of people would like to know what you have to say about this.
If someone knows what they are doing, you can’t tell if they are on or not, it’s impossible. Now, if they don’t, obviously watch for acne, bloat, etc. I’ve been in the game for almost a decade and I still can’t tell for sure if someone is juicing…now growth, that’s another animal altogether.
People kept asking me what I was on, and I wasn’t on anything! I just started a cycle last week and I’ve been clean almost a year!
To think that someone can’t get to Mule’s size w/o juice is ludicrous. I hit 230 before I ever put anything in me. And…after struggling for 6 months with depression and not lifting I went from 235 (6months post cycle) to 205. I basically at nothing and did nothing for 6 months. When I started lifting again about 6 weeks ago, I said I would hit 225 before starting any gear, just to push it past 240-245, well, I didn’t expect to get my 25 lbs back so soon…God bless Westside. I hit 230 last Monday and started again.
In any case, juicing or not, it doesn’t matter who does and who doesn’t, muscle is muscle. Juice is not some magical substance that makes everyone lift unGodly amounts of weight. You still have to work hard, possibly even harder b/c you are working with larger weights and the increase in LBM is hard on your body if you don’t do things right: elevated blood pressure, pulse, etc. The problem is that there are too many dumbasses juicing who have no experience or knowledge and it’s making us vets look bad.
One of my girlfriend’s friends asked me to get him some gear and I had to refuse. The kid is 19 and doesn’t look like he has lifted at all, ever. That’s the kind of person that doesn’t need to juice b/c he’s just looking for the easy way out. He hasn’t earned his stripes in the trenches. There are people who deserve to juice. People that have done their homework and put in the time in the gym. Guys who want to take it to the next level instead of skipping levels. There is a huuuuge difference.
Anyways, I’m done rambling. Mule, you look good man, keep up the good work.
Mule, I’m not afraid to say it: you and your buddy Kev look yoked!
Now I’ve been around weight training almost as long as you and your buddies have been alive, I’ve run a gym and met hundreds of athletes at all levels and gym-rats as well, and I’ve never seen anyone with the level of upper body development you two exhibit at your age that hasn’t gone a bit past protein powder.
Now I admit it is within the realm of possibility that you are totally natural and just have sky-high testosterone levels that allow you to make and hold such gains while at low bodyfat, anyone with a background in probability and statistics will allow that.
I’m just saying I’ve never met those statistical outliers. But I also know a lot of athletes who use and because of the ramifications of being outted or caught using, they will deny-deny-deny until they fry. Fine, I understand it, it’s part of the game.
So anyway, whether or not you are juicing doesn’t matter to me. No matter what you say or do you’ll never convince some people you’re not juicing - don’t sweat it, just take it as a compliment and keep training.
I categorize my obsevations as 1.‘natural’ looking; 2. a grey area (could be either) and 3. ‘juicers… no doubt.
I’ve developed an aesthetic the last few years that says the no- doubt juicers are just plain unnatural looking and equate that as ‘fake’ muscle’ with porprotions that are flat out unnappealing.Probodybuilders look plain grotesque to me (and MOST women by the way).
I’m 5’8’ 210 pounds fairly low body fat and have a physique often mistaken as juice-produced… not the case… (I HAVE done Mag-10 at times AND… ok… 3 30 day cycles of transdermal fina over the last 4 years).
I try to strive for an optimal combination of muscularity,leanness, and classic symetry… associated with natural proportion and functional movement capacity (still maintain the agility to play sports etc…).
Rick Bravo
I made that post from a quote he made in a post three hours after this one. I dont need to repeat it cause its in my first post. HEy, if I am wrong and that quote was really not him then I owe him a beer.
WarHorse:
Hahahahahaha… I hear ya man. And we know that a lot of people will never believe that we’re natural. Me and Kevin have been accused of being roided since our freshman year of highschool, and if you went off what a lot of my highschool friends think, then I have been juicing for the last 5 years since age 15… I think it’s hilarious. But as Kevin has the graphs to prove, our progress has been slow and steady for the last 5 years. I do think that our out upper bodies are pretty outlandish, mostly our chests, but that’s because we have been wide grip benching together since we were like 14 years old. Now, we both do have pretty bad bacne, and we have for the last few years, and we both have some anger problems… OK… mostly just me. And those things just make it seem more apparent.
I remember when I was a sophmore in highschool and it was like the third week of football; I flpped out at practice, started bleeding all over the place, got in fights with a few teammates, and had some ficous hits on our scout team backs. Now, I have always been a very intense player and when I start to bleed it really gets me goin’, but it has always been like that. But my coach didn’t know that, and after practice he called me into his office and basically was trying to convince me that “steroids aren’t the way to go,” and that, “he wasn’t going to get me in trouble, he just wanted to help me ‘get off’.” Well, sitting there all sweaty and bloody I thought his was pretty fucking hilarious. But i still don’t know if he ever believed me… But it’s just the way I play.
Make no mistake. I’m quite chem’d up right now. 5 weeks test cyp/eq/d-bol+5 weeks test cyp+prop/winny/clen. Then I’m going to run 200 mgs of primo/ nolva/ clomid/ clen/ eca/ ps/ piracetam/alcar/rohdiola rosea and some creatine for my PCT my be 50 mgs of cyp a week too. It’s beautiful.