And do you know why this mobilization of fat substrate would occur? low insulin levels son
If I eat two grilled chicken breasts, three cups of green beans, a large salad consisting of green leaf/bib/romaine lettuce, tomatoes, bell peppers, cucumbers, black olives and sunflower seeds I am far better off than eating the exact same amount of calories in Oreo cookies. I would/could not trust anyone that would argue that with me.
So I do not believe in a calorie is a calorie with the exception of maintenance. While it may be true for maintenance of weight, most of us around here are far more interested in more than that.
2,000 calories of clean, healthy food versus 2,000 calories of junk food are only equal in that they will both provide your body with 2,000 calories of food. How someone can’t concede those two scenarios will have different affect on one’s body composition is beyond my understanding.
Christopher
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
There are guidlines other than “cals in, cals out” that help us reach our physique goals.
[/quote]
Exactly. Hence why I included sufficient protein intake + weight training in my fat loss recommendations.
Once again for the slow kids out there: calorie deficit + sufficient protein intake + weight training = fat loss
notice I did not say “avoid milk bcause of teh insulinz!”
[quote]toocul4u wrote:
And do you know why this mobilization of fat substrate would occur? low insulin levels son
[/quote]
and guess what happens when you go on a diet? you produce less insulin.
watch and learn:
a) when you eat food (protein or carbohydrates**), your body produces insulin
b) when you are on a diet, you eat less food.
c) when you eat less food, you produce less insulin.
d) when you produce less insulin, you allow your body to release stored body fat
e) when you eat less food, you also create an energy deficit
f) when you are in an energy deficit, the released bodyfat is mobilized to muscle tissue where it is burned off, hence you lose fat.
it’s almost like i know what the fuck i’m talking about.
**note that simply replaceing the calories from carbs with fat will have no effect, as fat can be stored without the presence on insulin
[quote]monkey_space wrote:
If I eat two grilled chicken breasts, three cups of green beans, a large salad consisting of green leaf/bib/romaine lettuce, tomatoes, bell peppers, cucumbers, black olives and sunflower seeds I am far better off than eating the exact same amount of calories in Oreo cookies. I would/could not trust anyone that would argue that with me.
So I do not believe in a calorie is a calorie with the exception of maintenance. While it may be true for maintenance of weight, most of us around here are far more interested in more than that.
2,000 calories of clean, healthy food versus 2,000 calories of junk food are only equal in that they will both provide your body with 2,000 calories of food. How someone can’t concede those two scenarios will have different affect on one’s body composition is beyond my understanding.
Christopher[/quote]
sigh I’m getting really tired of addressing this argument.
OK, first of all, nobody said 2,000 calories of junk will produce the same body as a 2,000 calorie diet of “clean food”
what I’m saying is this: Person A and Person B both eat 2,000 calories. Person A and Person B both eat 300g of protein, take 3g of fish oil, and eat numerous servings of fruits and vegitables a day. However, Person A eats his remaining 500 calories from clean sources only (say, oatmeal, sweetpotatoes, and olive oil) whereas Person B gets his remaining 500 calories from fruity pebbles and Little Debbie snack cakes.
There will be no difference between person A and person B’s physique. Here’s why:
-
they both consumed the same amount of protein
-
they are both in the same calorie deficit
because their deficit is the same, and the protein is equal, no matter what else they eat in the day, the same amount of energy (from fat) will be needed to cover the deficit.
I will say no more on this topic. Stop hijacking this thread, if you want to discuss this, start a new thread.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
monkey_space wrote:
If I eat two grilled chicken breasts, three cups of green beans, a large salad consisting of green leaf/bib/romaine lettuce, tomatoes, bell peppers, cucumbers, black olives and sunflower seeds I am far better off than eating the exact same amount of calories in Oreo cookies. I would/could not trust anyone that would argue that with me.
So I do not believe in a calorie is a calorie with the exception of maintenance. While it may be true for maintenance of weight, most of us around here are far more interested in more than that.
2,000 calories of clean, healthy food versus 2,000 calories of junk food are only equal in that they will both provide your body with 2,000 calories of food. How someone can’t concede those two scenarios will have different affect on one’s body composition is beyond my understanding.
Christopher
sigh I’m getting really tired of addressing this argument.
OK, first of all, nobody said 2,000 calories of junk will produce the same body as a 2,000 calorie diet of “clean food”
what I’m saying is this: Person A and Person B both eat 2,000 calories. Person A and Person B both eat 300g of protein, take 3g of fish oil, and eat numerous servings of fruits and vegitables a day.
However, Person A eats his remaining 500 calories from clean sources only (say, oatmeal, sweetpotatoes, and olive oil) whereas Person B gets his remaining 500 calories from fruity pebbles and Little Debbie snack cakes.
There will be no difference between person A and person B’s physique. Here’s why:
-
they both consumed the same amount of protein
-
they are both in the same calorie deficit
because their deficit is the same, and the protein is equal, no matter what else they eat in the day, the same amount of energy (from fat) will be needed to cover the deficit.
I will say no more on this topic. Stop hijacking this thread, if you want to discuss this, start a new thread.[/quote]
rrjc,
Do you feel I “hijacked” your thread in any way? If so, I apologize to you, and to you alone since you created this thread. However I do not feel I “hijacked” it and am being accused as doing such by the person who actually did.
Christopher
P.S. sigh I am pretty certain everyone else is getting tired of this argument also.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
it’s almost like i know what the fuck i’m talking about.
[/quote]
Yeah, almost.
Not really, though.
Oh, and blaming the hijak on the other poster? You must be severely retarded.
It was YOU, who, in the second reply to this thread, asked a completely different question than what was originally asked, which started this whole fucking tangent.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
toocul4u wrote:
And do you know why this mobilization of fat substrate would occur? low insulin levels son
and guess what happens when you go on a diet? you produce less insulin.
[/quote]
No. If I stuck to a diet of 2000 calories a day, with 300g of protein, and got all of those calories from Surge, milk, cookies, and whatever else I wanted to eat, I would produce more insulin than:
If I ate 3000 calories, with 300g of protein, and got all of my calories from chicken, lean beef, veggies, cottage cheese, etc…
In the second part, I’m eating more, but producing less insulin. There’s no way you can argue that. There’s also no way you can argue that I’d get/stay leaner on the second diet, given I use the same workout for both diets.
Your arguement “eat less to produce less insulin” is retarded. PS, I’m bulking, not “eating less.”
[quote]
watch and learn:
a) when you eat food (protein or carbohydrates**), your body produces insulin
b) when you are on a diet, you eat less food.
c) when you eat less food, you produce less insulin.
d) when you produce less insulin, you allow your body to release stored body fat
e) when you eat less food, you also create an energy deficit
f) when you are in an energy deficit, the released bodyfat is mobilized to muscle tissue where it is burned off, hence you lose fat.
it’s almost like i know what the fuck i’m talking about.
**note that simply replaceing the calories from carbs with fat will have no effect, as fat can be stored without the presence on insulin[/quote]
You have shown on the entire thread that you clearly don’t realize that some people don’t handle carbs well. Just walk away happy about the fact that you can handle them.
I drink the stuff and I’m a type 1 diabetic and I do not need to take insulin with it as it does not seem to affect my blood sugar at all.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
No. If I stuck to a diet of 2000 calories a day, with 300g of protein, and got all of those calories from Surge, milk, cookies, and whatever else I wanted to eat, I would produce more insulin than:
If I ate 3000 calories, with 300g of protein, and got all of my calories from chicken, lean beef, veggies, cottage cheese, etc…
[/quote]
I’d love to hear how you can eat 3,000 calories worth of “chicken, lean beef, veggies, cottage cheese, etc…” and only consume 300g of protein (1,200 calories worth) where are the other 1,800 calories coming from?
the diet you described to me sounds like a PSMF (google it if you don’t know what I’m talking about)
Additionally, a diet of 300g of protein that includes Surge, milk, and cookies, that creates a caloric deficit will elicit GREATER fat loss than a diet of 3,000 calories and 0 carbs, assuming the 3,000 calories puts you over maintenance.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
In the second part, I’m eating more, but producing less insulin. There’s no way you can argue that. There’s also no way you can argue that I’d get/stay leaner on the second diet, given I use the same workout for both diets.
[/quote]
avoiding insulin is missing the point. One can store fat without insulin. What good will it do if you avoid insulin completely if you end up overeating anyway?
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Your arguement “eat less to produce less insulin” is retarded. PS, I’m bulking, not “eating less.”[/quote]
Ok, so if you’re bulking, why are you worried about an insulin? it’s one of the most potent anabolic hormones in the body.
You know what they call bulking without insulin? getting fat.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
You know what they call bulking without insulin? getting fat.
[/quote]
Because insulin is the only thing around that contributes to muscle gain.
You’re so ignorant it’s unbeleivable.
Edit: PS, no one calls “bulking without insulin” “getting fat.” I honestly have NEVER read that on this site, nor anywhere else.
Also, my diet example up there was a clear cut example of how the statement you made, which was “you eat less, you produce less insulin” NOT “you eat less, you lose weight” is wrong.
However, here’s a different one:
Lets say my maintenance calorie intake is 3000 calories.
If I eat 2900 calories of Surge, cookies, milk, candy, whatever, with X grams of protein, I will get fatter than if I ate 3100 calories of clean food sources, still with X amount of protein.
That also goes against your simple, clean cut, always works “cals in vs cals out arguement.”
Oh, and you seriously need to stop regurgitating Lyle McDonalds’ shit. He’s an endurance athlete who admittedly “competed for several years prior to burning myself out completely with chronic overtraining.”
I wouldn’t take advice from someone who does stupid shit, like, I don’t know, “burning myself out completely” when they sure as shit know better.
Also, when someone’s only picture they have of themselves on their website “bodyrecomposition.com” is a face picture, that should tell us something, as well.
Here’s the other picture I found of him online:
JMo,
It occurs to me that all of your arguments are based on possibility rather than optimization.
Sure, lots of things “can” happen. That doesn’t mean that they are happening in the most efficacious manner with regards to muscle sparing when dieting, body fat control when attempting to gain muscle, etc.
You need to realize that the “one-size-fits-all” mentality that you have is a very naive perspective.
Come on.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
Lets say my maintenance calorie intake is 3000 calories.
If I eat 2900 calories of Surge, cookies, milk, candy, whatever, with X grams of protein, I will get fatter than if I ate 3100 calories of clean food sources, still with X amount of protein.
That also goes against your simple, clean cut, always works “cals in vs cals out arguement.”
[/quote]
you can believe whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it true.
If you can give me an objective definition of “clean” then I will concede the argument and admit defeat.
as far as LyleMcD is concerned, he has openly admitted he did some stupid shit back in the day (haven’t we all?) I don’t know anyone who has trained perfectly from day one.
however, while he is my most trusted/respected source of information, I pull my knowledge from many individuals. Among them are:
Alan Aragon
Jamie Hale
Leigh Peele
Martin Berkhan
Blade
Fireproof
Layne Norton (natural pro bodybuilder)
John Berardi (yes Mr. “a calorie is not a calorie” himself)
this is only a list off the top of my head, there are many other.
my point is, virtually all of them will tell you the same thing:
- creating a caloric deficit is the only way to lose fat
- low carb diets, while sometimes useful, are not necessarily the only way, nor always the best way to lose fat
- you do not have to eat “clean” 100% of the time to see OPTIMAL results
and finally, they would ALL agree that the insulin spike from calorie countdown milk will not harm your physique goals in any way, shape, or form.
[quote]Affliction wrote:
You need to realize that the “one-size-fits-all” mentality that you have is a very naive perspective.[/quote]
Thank you, but I hardly have a “one-size-fits-all” approach. I have used low carb diets successfully in the past, I’ve used high carb diets successfully as well.
I understand there are issues with glucose tolerance, insulin sensitivity etc.
certainly, some individuals do better on a lower carb approach (read: lower carb doesn’t mean “less than 30g/day”, as some seem to believe)
what bothers me, is that this board (moreso than anywhere else on the internet, except maybe LC forums) has an “anti carb/anti insulin” mentality that is VERY misguided.
and anyone who dares to challenge the prevailing dogma/myths that surrounds the vilified macronutrient is painted as some sort of heretic.
I’m simply trying to bring some sanity to this board and maybe, just maybe, provide some useful information to people who are reading this forum. While I may do this in a crass manor, sometimes that’s what it takes to get peoples attention.
Did you copy and paste that list from Landon Evans’ recent post at elitefts.com?
I’m very well-read on this and we share many of the same sources.
One thing I think you are getting lost in, and I made this mistake a few years ago, is that you need to find out what has practical application.
Thibs addressed this a few weeks ago with his “proof-in-the-pudding” response. Someone asked him to clarify something scientifically and he couldn’t really elucidate it any more through research, instead saying [paraphrasing now] that it “just works”.
Have you applied any of your theories to yourself and clients?
Those dieting philosophies you gave me earlier were very generic “starting points”, if you will.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
Affliction wrote:
You need to realize that the “one-size-fits-all” mentality that you have is a very naive perspective.
Thank you, but I hardly have a “one-size-fits-all” approach. I have used low carb diets successfully in the past, I’ve used high carb diets successfully as well.
I understand there are issues with glucose tolerance, insulin sensitivity etc.
certainly, some individuals do better on a lower carb approach (read: lower carb doesn’t mean “less than 30g/day”, as some seem to believe)
what bothers me, is that this board (moreso than anywhere else on the internet, except maybe LC forums) has an “anti carb/anti insulin” mentality that is VERY misguided.
and anyone who dares to challenge the prevailing dogma/myths that surrounds the vilified macronutrient is painted as some sort of heretic.
I’m simply trying to bring some sanity to this board and maybe, just maybe, provide some useful information to people who are reading this forum. While I may do this in a crass manor, sometimes that’s what it takes to get peoples attention.[/quote]
I do not have an “anti carb/anti insulin” mentality and yet you were rude to me and told me to stop hijacking the thread. All this while you are the one who hijacked this thread. But I guess that is OK since you were just “trying to bring some sanity to this board.”
It is as simple as this. The original poster asked an earnest question. I truly believe that. And I also believe that you were truly trying to impart your knowledge. But your “crass manor (sic)” is very off putting and may be counterproductive to your cause.
Christopher
[quote]Affliction wrote:
Did you copy and paste that list from Landon Evans’ recent post at elitefts.com?
I’m very well-read on this and we share many of the same sources.
One thing I think you are getting lost in, and I made this mistake a few years ago, is that you need to find out what has practical application.
Thibs addressed this a few weeks ago with his “proof-in-the-pudding” response. Someone asked him to clarify something scientifically and he couldn’t really elucidate it any more through research, instead saying [paraphrasing now] that it “just works”.
Have you applied any of your theories to yourself and clients?
Those dieting philosophies you gave me earlier were very generic “starting points”, if you will.[/quote]
idk who landon evans is, and i don’t visit the elitefts message board (Im actually trying to cut down on the number of fitness message boards i visit, simply because its becoming too much of a time suck for me)
the thing about the “proof-in-the-pudding” argument is that it opens up the trainee to a bunch of truly goofy shit. next thing you know, you’re afraid to combine acid fruits with sweet fruits or some such nonsense. that’s no way to live in my opinion.
the best way, as i see it, is to allow solid research, supported by “real world” experience, to guide your training. the results will come quicker than if you are constantly looking for the most “optimal” way, and never actually give the basics enough time to work.
even worse than that, however, are those people who are so caught up in all the “secrets” that they IGNORE or forget the underlying principles of success.
I see this all the time online when somebody asks about how many grams of BCAA’s they should take peri-workout, yet cannot say how many calories or grams of P/F/C they average in a week. (note that i’m not accusing anyone in this thread of doing that, but it can happen)
but I digress.
Again, to answer the OP’s question: nobody here knows the answer to your question. But I do know this: the insulin response from milk is NOTHING to be concerned about. In fact, it is probably beneficial to your goals, muscle gain OR fat loss.
milk does a body good. drink it.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
But I do know this: the insulin response from milk is NOTHING to be concerned about. [/quote]
Which proves, again, how little you really know on this subject. please add our forum to your list of those you’ll be leaving, due to time suck. we don’t need your help, and don’t want to be a burden to you. buh-bye
[quote]toocul4u wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
But I do know this: the insulin response from milk is NOTHING to be concerned about.
Which proves, again, how little you really know on this subject. please add our forum to your list of those you’ll be leaving, due to time suck. we don’t need your help, and don’t want to be a burden to you. buh-bye
[/quote]
ok pal, I’ll bite. why should I be afraid of the insulin boogeyman?