Cal Countdown Milk & Insulin Response

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
Affliction wrote:
His post, while slightly neurotic, probably stems from the fact that milk in general is often touted as highly insulinogenic, and therefore is not as ridiculous as you seem to think. Also, what dedicated physique athlete (or someone engaged in similar pursuits) do you know that is not slightly obsessive?

the difference is, successful physique atheletes obsess over things that actually MATTER. People who constantly spin their wheels for years getting absolutly nowhere, on the other hand, obsess over the shit that doesn’t matter, like if the 3g of carbs in their reduced-carb milk is going to make them fat.
[/quote]

Right. Because regulating blood sugar/insulin levels aren’t conducive to body recomposition. I utilize insulin when I need it.

I know what works for me. You clearly don’t.

I asked if calorie countdown milk didn’t spike insulin as much as normal (with way more sugar) milk. That’s not a stupid question.

What if I asked this question because I (or was asking for someone who) is diabetic. Is it still a stupid question?

No, it’s not. It never was. You’ve already shown your ignorance in this thread. STFU.

[quote]Affliction wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
nowhere in this thread did I argue for a high carb diet, nor do I think a high carb diet is necessarily the best for everyone.

However, it’s pretty freakin ridiculous to me that people seem to think that 3 grams of carbs in milk is whats making/keeping them fat. As if no one has ever gotten ripped while drinking milk. give me a break.

it’s called missing the forest for the trees, and virtually every thread that I post in is guilty of the same problem.

His post, while slightly neurotic, probably stems from the fact that milk in general is often touted as highly insulinogenic, and therefore is not as ridiculous as you seem to think. Also, what dedicated physique athlete (or someone engaged in similar pursuits) do you know that is not slightly obsessive?
[/quote]

Again, I never said 3g of sugars (PER SERVING) is making/keeping me fat. I’d say 14g of sugar (PER SERVING) in normal milk could definitly be a reason someone’s staying/getting fat. Mainly because I’m drinking about a carton a day of it. Who do you know who only drinks 8oz of milk?

I know my body doesn’t handle carbs well. I know my body doesn’t handle insulin well. I did 20 rep squats two years ago, and gained way more fat than I had wanted.

I’ve bulked on diets that include a lot of whole milk. I gain too much fat.

Since milk is an excellent source of calories/protein, I’d like to keep it in my diet, without getting too fat.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
Affliction wrote:
His post, while slightly neurotic, probably stems from the fact that milk in general is often touted as highly insulinogenic, and therefore is not as ridiculous as you seem to think. Also, what dedicated physique athlete (or someone engaged in similar pursuits) do you know that is not slightly obsessive?

the difference is, successful physique atheletes obsess over things that actually MATTER. People who constantly spin their wheels for years getting absolutly nowhere, on the other hand, obsess over the shit that doesn’t matter, like if the 3g of carbs in their reduced-carb milk is going to make them fat.

Right. Because regulating blood sugar/insulin levels aren’t conducive to body recomposition. I utilize insulin when I need it.

I know what works for me. You clearly don’t.

I asked if calorie countdown milk didn’t spike insulin as much as normal (with way more sugar) milk. That’s not a stupid question.

What if I asked this question because I (or was asking for someone who) is diabetic. Is it still a stupid question?

No, it’s not. It never was. You’ve already shown your ignorance in this thread. STFU.[/quote]

I’ll say this:

  1. what works for you will work for someone else, you are not as special as you think

  2. if you were diabetic, you would have mentioned it in the original post, because you did not, I assumed (correctly, i might add) you were not diabetic

3)regulating blood sugar levels have little if anything to do with body composition. it has everything to do with regulating blood sugar levels. if regulating blood sugar levels is your goal, awesome.

if your goal is body composition, I would be more worried about things that matter, like total calorie intake & macronutrient amounts, and training issues.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:

3)regulating blood sugar levels have little if anything to do with body composition. it has everything to do with regulating blood sugar levels. if regulating blood sugar levels is your goal, awesome.
[/quote]

you should either stop posting things that are patently false, or stop posting altogether. choose one OR the other, i don’t care which

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
I’ll say this:

  1. what works for you will work for someone else, you are not as special as you think
    [/quote]

I wasn’t the one who decided to cock up someone elses thread by imposing my viewpoints. I never said I was special, unique, or any type of medical anomaly.

I realize that other’s needs are different. I asked this question regarding MY insulin levels for MY bulk.

Is prevention of diabetes not good enough reason for you? Fuckwit.

Read again.

[quote]
if your goal is body composition, I would be more worried about things that matter, like total calorie intake & macronutrient amounts, and training issues.[/quote]

If I were you, I’d stop making uneducated guesses about what the rest of my diet is like. I’m getting plenty of calories, protein, fats, and moderate carbs. I’m also training with Mark Bell and the Supertraining guys, so no need to tell me to worry about that, either. I’m also getting adequate recovery, if you were wondering.

And most importantly, it’s fucking working. For me. Which is who I’m worried about. No one else. NOW, shut the fuck up.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:

  1. what works for you will work for someone else, you are not as special as you think[/quote]

Ah, yes, the one program that fits everyone and flies in the face of what most experienced trainees have learned.

I think the biggest issue with many of you’re claims is that you tend to oversimplify things. While this may be a good approach for newbies who tend to get hung up on the details, it misses the mark for those that have a better understanding for what works, and doesn’t work, for them.

Let me guess, you probably think that there’s one training program that is ideal for everyone as well, right?

rrjc,

I also love drinking milk. I love Hood. While I don’t feel adequately qualified to answer you original question I do think it is safe to state that drinking the same amount of Hood in place of milk would be beneficial to you after reading your posts about past experiences with milk. Like you I want to keep it part of my nutritional intake so I use Hood on a daily basis.

Oh yeah, and did I mention that I LOVE Chocolate Hood?!? :wink:

Christopher

P.S. Take a deep breath. There, now doesn’t that feel better? Now do yourself a favor and ignore future posts from you know who. :wink:

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:

  1. what works for you will work for someone else, you are not as special as you think

  2. if you were diabetic, you would have mentioned it in the original post, because you did not, I assumed (correctly, i might add) you were not diabetic

3)regulating blood sugar levels have little if anything to do with body composition. it has everything to do with regulating blood sugar levels. if regulating blood sugar levels is your goal, awesome.
[/quote]

I completely agree with #1, I never did like that argument.

However, #3 couldn’t be further from the truth.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:

And guess what? ASP levels can go up even with no increase in insulin.

[/quote]

Can you reproduce a study that shows this?
I have only heard of ASP augmenting triglyceride synthesis and storage in adipocytes in combination with glucose uptake

Some claim they get fat, others claim it is too expensive (???) and still others complain of gastro-intestinal disorders. But in my eyes anyone who is not lactose intolerant is selling his gains short if he is not supplementing with milk and a lot of it. I always drank milk, I like it, but I never fully realized its potential as a supplement until I started using it as the cornerstone of my diet and started growing beyond measure. I made the greatest gains of my life on milk.

Going back to the 1940’s, you’ll find that our heroes of yore such as Clancy Ross and John Grimek accredited much of their gains to milk. Clancy Ross even went as far as saying it was the best thing ever to get big. Many of us long for a return to healthy, natural bodybuilding, so why not start by consuming the same things they did?
You can get it at any store, it’s reasonably cheap to use because it’s 90 percent water, it easily replaces all the fattening cokes and sprites you gulp down, or the flat tasteless water you drink to try and meet you hydration demand.

Drinking anywhere from 1 to 2 gallons a day, depending on how much working out I have to do and taking my protein cycle into account, I use milk mainly for the protein content. A liter of milk (just under 1/3 of a gallon) contains 32 grams of protein coming from two main sources: casein and whey. These are without a doubt the two best proteins available, and in combination with egg protein, supply a complete amino acid spectrum. I don’t have to sell bodybuilders on the benefits of whey I suppose. It’s the most bio-available protein in the world. It’s fast acting and supplies the aminos of the greatest importance to bodybuilders in large amounts. Casein on the other hand is a slower acting protein that contains other essential aminos that provide the base of your body’s Amino Acid Pool. By having a mix of the two, the casein influences the whey to act slower and so doing stay active in the body longer and increasing the possibility of absorbing more of it. And because of the aminos present in casein, there is more of a chance that the whey will be stored in muscle-tissue.

Ask any nutrition expert, the best diet for bulking up is 50 percent carbs, 35 percent protein and 15 percent fats. Match that up with the content of semi-skimmed milk and you’ll find that milk is the perfect nutrition. It could be the cheapest MRP there is. Per liter you get 440 calories, just below what most MRP’s supply, giving you 48 grams of carbs, 32 grams of protein and 15 percent fats. Need more proof? What are most kids raised on in the early years of their life? Milk. You start out at a meager 8 pounds, and soon you grow out to a healthy toddler. If only you could keep growing like that, huh? Then why turn your back on the thing that did it? Cow’s milk you say? Have you seen the size of the bovine stock? Those things are huge. Cows aren’t entirely unlike bodybuilders, they used to be an example of health and then they started using steroids to get bigger. For a growing athlete, taking in as many calories as possible is essential, but you have to watch what you eat to. My milk intake supplies 1300 to 2600 calories a day, from one of the cleanest and purest sources left in a world of pre-packaging, diseases and genetically engineered food. That’s anywhere from 60 to 90 percent of my calorie intake depending on the phase I’m in.

Which milk to use?

Well, semi-skimmed or 2 percent is ideal in most circumstances, because it’s practically a meal. It’s ideal to be used with meals or shakes, or as a meal by itself. If you are severely underweight take full fat milk. At more than 30 grams of fat per liter it supplies 600 or more calories, as a weight gainer it’s definitely the way to go. And naturally if you are on a diet, take in skimmed milk.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I know my body doesn’t handle carbs well. I know my body doesn’t handle insulin well. I did 20 rep squats two years ago, and gained way more fat than I had wanted.

I’ve bulked on diets that include a lot of whole milk. I gain too much fat.

Since milk is an excellent source of calories/protein, I’d like to keep it in my diet, without getting too fat.[/quote]

if my memory serves me correctly, the 20 rep squat protocol calls for a gallon of whole milk a day.

a gallon of whole milk contains approximatly 2,381 calories. You consumed over 2,300 calories IN ADDITION to your normal meals, and you were SUPRISED you gained a disproportionate amount of fat on your bulk?

how about, instead of blaming your fatness on the insulin response from the milk (i.e. completly irrelevent) you focus instead on the fact that you consumed over 2,300 extra calories per day.

no shit you got fat. guess what? when you overeat…you gain fat! crazy isn’t it?

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:

Is prevention of diabetes not good enough reason for you? Fuckwit.[/quote]

diabetes is caused by obesity, not the consumption of carbohydrates per se. you can get diabetes by overeating fat too.

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
And most importantly, it’s fucking working. For me. Which is who I’m worried about. No one else. NOW, shut the fuck up.[/quote]

Gosh, if what you’re doing is working so well for you, why come here for advice? just keep at it.

[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:

And guess what? ASP levels can go up even with no increase in insulin.

Can you reproduce a study that shows this?
I have only heard of ASP augmenting triglyceride synthesis and storage in adipocytes in combination with glucose uptake [/quote]

here you go:

Am J Physiol. 1999 Feb;276(2 Pt 1):E241-8. Links
Effects of an oral and intravenous fat load on adipose tissue and forearm lipid metabolism.

  • Evans K,
  • Clark ML,
  • Frayn KN.

Nuffield Department of Clinical Biochemistry, John Radcliffe Hospital, Headington, Oxford OX3 9DU, UK.

Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998 Nov;22(11):1096-102. Links
The influence of oral lipid loads on acylation stimulating protein (ASP) in healthy volunteers.

  • Charlesworth JA,
  • Peake PW,
  • Campbell LV,
  • Pussell BA,
  • O’Grady S,
  • Tzilopoulos T.

Department of Nephrology, Prince Henry Hospital, Little Bay, New South Wales, Australia.

and this

J Lipid Res. 1989 Nov;30(11):1727-33. Links
Metabolic response of Acylation Stimulating Protein to an oral fat load.

  • Cianflone K,
  • Vu H,
  • Walsh M,
  • Baldo A,
  • Sniderman A.

McGill Unit for the Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease, Royal Victoria Hospital, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

check em out on google scholar, I believe the full texts are free for a couple.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
rrjc5488 wrote:
I know my body doesn’t handle carbs well. I know my body doesn’t handle insulin well. I did 20 rep squats two years ago, and gained way more fat than I had wanted.

I’ve bulked on diets that include a lot of whole milk. I gain too much fat.

Since milk is an excellent source of calories/protein, I’d like to keep it in my diet, without getting too fat.

if my memory serves me correctly, the 20 rep squat protocol calls for a gallon of whole milk a day.

a gallon of whole milk contains approximatly 2,381 calories. You consumed over 2,300 calories IN ADDITION to your normal meals, and you were SUPRISED you gained a disproportionate amount of fat on your bulk?

how about, instead of blaming your fatness on the insulin response from the milk (i.e. completly irrelevent) you focus instead on the fact that you consumed over 2,300 extra calories per day.

no shit you got fat. guess what? when you overeat…you gain fat! crazy isn’t it?
[/quote]

No shit a lot of fat gain came from extra calories, but for you to argue that having high insulin levels from drinking milk ALL fucking day doesn’t have an effect on body composition is absolutely ridiculous.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:

Gosh, if what you’re doing is working so well for you, why come here for advice? just keep at it.[/quote]

No, its his thread, you should have made this simple conclusion when you read is the first time, and then clicked your back button.

even more that you haven’t made a single coherent argument at all in this thread.

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
rrjc5488 wrote:

Is prevention of diabetes not good enough reason for you? Fuckwit.

diabetes is caused by obesity, not the consumption of carbohydrates per se. you can get diabetes by overeating fat too.
[/quote]

I never said carbohydrates are the cause of diabetes. Consuming a lot of sugar on a regular basis, for a long period of time, is most definitely not helping one’s cause to avoid diabetes.

[quote]
rrjc5488 wrote:
And most importantly, it’s fucking working. For me. Which is who I’m worried about. No one else. NOW, shut the fuck up.

Gosh, if what you’re doing is working so well for you, why come here for advice? just keep at it.[/quote]

I didn’t ask for any advice. I asked whether Hood milk produces the same insulin spike normal milk does. This way, I could make my own decision on whether the extra protein/calories I’m getting is worth the insulin spike.

Relax, chief, not everyone comes to you for advice. “You are not as special as you think.”

[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
I asked whether Hood milk produces the same insulin spike normal milk does. This way, I could make my own decision on whether the extra protein/calories I’m getting is worth the insulin spike.
[/quote]

OK, fine. Here is my answer to your question: I don’t know. That being said, I have never seen any evidence to suggest that the insulin response from milk is anything to worry about wrt fat loss.

Overall calorie intake will trump ANY transient increases in insulin when it comes to determining body composition. THIS is the point which nearly everyone in this thread has missed.

As far as insulin and muscle gain is concerned, insulin, being an anti-catabolic hormone, is necessary for inhibiting protein breakdown. And because net protein accretion is comprised of (protein synthesis - protein breakdown), this is actually a GOOD thing.

Finally, I seem to recall reading that the insulin rise seen when one ingests milk is due to the protein content, NOT the lactose content, therefore I would assume that there is a minimal difference in insulin response (not that it really matters anyway)

jmou,

You speak with such confidence, but I do assume you realize how little we as humans know about our own bodies. You seem like a pretty smart dude, but everything is not as simple as you make it sound. For instance, you seem to believe pretty strongly in cals in/out, which at the end of the day I agree with also- but so much influences calories in versus calories out than just eating under your supposed bmr to lose weight. For example, what do you think of this… Inhibition of triiodothyronine's induction of rat liver lipogenic enzymes by dietary fat - PubMed

or even the hypothesis that leptin resistance results in insulin resistance.

I know atleast a half dozen people who cut calories, exercise quite a bit and still see no results. These are people who made dedicated efforts to lose weight and still didn’t. Have you ever noticed that most fat people’s lifestyles aren’t that much different from normal weight individuals? There’s a lot more going on in our body than we know.

[quote]latenight_lifter wrote:
jmou,

You speak with such confidence, but I do assume you realize how little we as humans know about our own bodies. You seem like a pretty smart dude, but everything is not as simple as you make it sound. For instance, you seem to believe pretty strongly in cals in/out, which at the end of the day I agree with also- but so much influences calories in versus calories out than just eating under your supposed bmr to lose weight. For example, what do you think of this… Inhibition of triiodothyronine's induction of rat liver lipogenic enzymes by dietary fat - PubMed

or even the hypothesis that leptin resistance results in insulin resistance.

I know atleast a half dozen people who cut calories, exercise quite a bit and still see no results. These are people who made dedicated efforts to lose weight and still didn’t. Have you ever noticed that most fat people’s lifestyles aren’t that much different from normal weight individuals? There’s a lot more going on in our body than we know.

[/quote]

it had been demonstrated time and time again that fat people SUCK at estimating their calorie intake (even when keeping food journals). the obese typically under report food intake by 30-50%. likewise, skinny individuals who can’t seem to gain weight UNDER report food intake by about that much as well.

while nearly every overweight person I’ve met SWEARS they have a metabolic disorder, I find it strange that under strictly controlled conditions where every gram of food is measured and accounted for, never has there been a subject with this kind of mysterious metabolic abnormality.

the people you know who cut calories and exercised either 1) lied about their diet (intentionally or not) or 2) obviously didn’t cut them enough to put them in a net deficit. if they were in a deficit, their body would have mobilized stored substrate (glycogen, fat, and muscle tissue…but mostly fat) to cover the difference in energy. that’s just how it works.

cutting calories = losing weight.

cutting calories + weight training + sufficient protein intake = losing fat.

there are no secrets.

there are no shortcuts.

(regarding the study you provided, i couldn’t make much sense of it, but i typically disregard rat research as it is of very little applicability to humans)

[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
there are no secrets.
[/quote]

There are guidlines other than “cals in, cals out” that help us reach our physique goals.

PS, apparently this shit is a secret. Look around America.