[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
Im actually trying to cut down on the number of fitness message boards i visit, simply because its becoming too much of a time suck for me)
[/quote]
It would be most excellent if you stopped posting here, first.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
It would be most excellent if you stopped posting here, first.[/quote]
I’ve considered it, but I need a good laugh every now and then.
“oh noes! teh insulinz r makin meh fat!”
I read this whole thread and thought I was in the “GET A LIFE/OFF TOPIC” forum. Come to find out strangely enough, what I was reading is in “Supplements and Nutrition.” Go figure…
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
Im actually trying to cut down on the number of fitness message boards i visit, simply because its becoming too much of a time suck for me)
It would be most excellent if you stopped posting here, first.[/quote]
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.[/quote]
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…
Not to progress any further hostility, but to answer your last question JM…
Chronic elevation of insulin leads to decreased sensitivity of GLUT4 insulin receptors (and possibly all the others). Now, this is a concern for long term elevated insulin levels (we’re talking 5-10+ years here). Insulin will have a difficult time activating these receptors, blood sugar will ten to remain higher, and this can cause subsequent damage to cells (inflammation, oxidation, etc). Body will continue to pump insulin without success. Islet cells in the pancreas that produce insulin may become exhausted and stop producing insulin completely (severe cases) Hello, diabetes. If you are not obese, young, work out semi-consistently, and don’t have a 40+ inch belly, then you shouldn’t have much to worry about.
He has a legitimate concern that should be addressed without confrontation, as I’ve drank milk consistently my entire life. I’m pudgy in my midsection, but lean everywhere else. People tend to consider it a sign for insulin insensitivity, so it does concern me (im only 23). But I’ve heard to many positive things with milk to stop consumption of it completely. I’ve heard that something about the nutritional makeup of milk (20% whey, 80% casein, lactose is digested slowly as well)that is the perfect fuel for muscles and tends not to be stored as fat, even for the average person. But the fundamental rule still applies, if your caloric consumption exceeds your caloric intake, then your body will want to store it as fat. Hope it helps.
Milk does a body good, I drink 1 gallon everyday. Lactose free, drink lots of milk and lift heavy = muscle :0
[quote]Kaizen08 wrote:
Not to progress any further hostility, but to answer your last question JM…
Chronic elevation of insulin leads to decreased sensitivity of GLUT4 insulin receptors (and possibly all the others). Now, this is a concern for long term elevated insulin levels (we’re talking 5-10+ years here). Insulin will have a difficult time activating these receptors, blood sugar will ten to remain higher, and this can cause subsequent damage to cells (inflammation, oxidation, etc). Body will continue to pump insulin without success. Islet cells in the pancreas that produce insulin may become exhausted and stop producing insulin completely (severe cases) Hello, diabetes. If you are not obese, young, work out semi-consistently, and don’t have a 40+ inch belly, then you shouldn’t have much to worry about.
He has a legitimate concern that should be addressed without confrontation, as I’ve drank milk consistently my entire life. I’m pudgy in my midsection, but lean everywhere else. People tend to consider it a sign for insulin insensitivity, so it does concern me (im only 23). But I’ve heard to many positive things with milk to stop consumption of it completely. I’ve heard that something about the nutritional makeup of milk (20% whey, 80% casein, lactose is digested slowly as well)that is the perfect fuel for muscles and tends not to be stored as fat, even for the average person. But the fundamental rule still applies, if your caloric consumption exceeds your caloric intake, then your body will want to store it as fat. Hope it helps.[/quote]
this might be the best reply in this entire thread. I think these two parts are of particular notoriety:
“If you are not obese, young, work out semi-consistently, and don’t have a 40+ inch belly, then you shouldn’t have much to worry about.”
^^ Bingo, the effect insulin elevation has in a lean, healthy, weight training individual is VERY different from chronic insulin elevation in a sedentary, overweight, pre-diabetic person.
also this: “But the fundamental rule still applies, if your caloric consumption exceeds your caloric intake, I’ll assume you meant expenditure then your body will want to store it as fat.”
^^ once again, on point. Even if you ate 0 carbohydrates, the fact is, if you consume more calories than you burn, the unused exergy (energy not used for continuing life processes, repairing tissue, etc.) WILL be stored as fat. The body evolved to do this with excess energy to be used during times of famine (e.g. dieting)
One thing I’ll add, however, is that diabetes isn’t caused by chronically elevated insulin per se, but by being overfat. Someone who is a healthy weight, and is eating maintenence calories, can eat all the high GI carbs he want’s without having to fear type II diabetes (see: bodybuilding diets from the 80’s fat phobic era. Lots of carbs, but no diabetes b/c they maintained a healthy bodyweight and exercised).
This is because fat cells become insulin resistant when they sense they’re getting full (i.e. when you get fat). It’s the body’s way of protecting itself from blowing up like a blimp. The result: elevated blood sugar, and diabetes.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…[/quote]
Learn your basics before you get all huffy.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
I read this whole thread and thought I was in the “GET A LIFE/OFF TOPIC” forum. Come to find out strangely enough, what I was reading is in “Supplements and Nutrition.” Go figure…[/quote]
So you thought adding a useful post such as this was the way to go ahead and improve it?
GTFO.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…
Learn your basics before you get all huffy.[/quote]
lol. ok tiger, perhaps you can school me on “the basics”. since toocul4u apparently can’t.
I’m looking forward to your response.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…
Learn your basics before you get all huffy.
lol. ok tiger, perhaps you can school me on “the basics”. since toocul4u apparently can’t.
I’m looking forward to your response.[/quote]
what do you need to be taught?
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…
Learn your basics before you get all huffy.
lol. ok tiger, perhaps you can school me on “the basics”. since toocul4u apparently can’t.
I’m looking forward to your response.[/quote]
Maybe I’m wrong to consider this basic knowledge, but the concept of insulin’s effects on body composition are.
Now to answer the question about the insulin reposonse of Hood Carb Countdown:
According to the researchers Laurie Barclay, MD, and Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd, in a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition titled "Different Proteins May Have Varying Insulinotropic Properties ",
"Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low glycemic index (GI).
“Food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids… Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue… The potential long-term effects of a noncarbohydrate-mediated insulin stimulus on metabolic variables should be evaluated in healthy persons and in persons with a diminished capacity for insulin secretion.”
Some “Pearls for Practice” of the study conclude:
- Milk components affecting the glucose and insulin responses include carbohydrates and proteins. Milk carbohydrates have low GI, while the milk proteins casein and whey may have insulinogenic properties by activating the incretin system.
- Milk proteins contained in the whey component (resulting in release of the amino acids leucine, valine, isoleucine, and lysine) may be primarily responsible for the insulinogenic properties of milk products.
link to this article (not a ful study):
…
Another very similarly deisgned study, titled “Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins” used controls to see not only what protein caused the insuliogenic response, but whether the lactose was responsible. It concluded that , “The insulin response to milk products does not relate solely on the lactose component.”
Also, the study affirms that "the present results confirm those from a previous study in which the ingestion of pasteurized milk resulted in a discrepancy between blood glucose (GI = 30) and the insulin response (II = 90), which was not present after a carbohydrate equivalent load of pure lactose (GI = 68; II = 50) (1).
(1)Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. by Östman EM, Elmståhl HGML, Björck IME
link to main study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246?ijkey=6eb64305702b63f226021318353c463fb1f93ce2#R9
link to the supporting study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/1/96?ijkey=a7411fc645a49b11f816c12a5dc6d6172f8c9c72&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
…
So based on this information, it’s safe to conclude that the Hood Carb Countdown milk has a higher insulin response.
We all know there are times to elevate insulin, so if you choose to consume Carb Countdown, milk, or a hydrolyzed whey shake with high DE carbs in it, do it PWO.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
That was hilarious, but I’m not taking sides because i think you both should spend the majority of your time in the Get a Life forum.
Another solid post from BulletproofTiger. How do you do it?
On another note, I’m still waiting to hear back from toocul4u about why I should avoid elevating insulin. Something about it being a “fat storage hormone” or something…perhaps he can explain it…
Learn your basics before you get all huffy.
lol. ok tiger, perhaps you can school me on “the basics”. since toocul4u apparently can’t.
I’m looking forward to your response.
Maybe I’m wrong to consider this basic knowledge, but the concept of insulin’s effects on body composition are.
Now to answer the question about the insulin reposonse of Hood Carb Countdown:
According to the researchers Laurie Barclay, MD, and Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd, in a study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition titled "Different Proteins May Have Varying Insulinotropic Properties ",
"Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low glycemic index (GI).
“Food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids… Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue… The potential long-term effects of a noncarbohydrate-mediated insulin stimulus on metabolic variables should be evaluated in healthy persons and in persons with a diminished capacity for insulin secretion.”
Some “Pearls for Practice” of the study conclude:
- Milk components affecting the glucose and insulin responses include carbohydrates and proteins. Milk carbohydrates have low GI, while the milk proteins casein and whey may have insulinogenic properties by activating the incretin system.
- Milk proteins contained in the whey component (resulting in release of the amino acids leucine, valine, isoleucine, and lysine) may be primarily responsible for the insulinogenic properties of milk products.
link to this article (not a ful study):
…
Another very similarly deisgned study, titled “Glycemia and insulinemia in healthy subjects after lactose-equivalent meals of milk and other food proteins: the role of plasma amino acids and incretins” used controls to see not only what protein caused the insuliogenic response, but whether the lactose was responsible. It concluded that , “The insulin response to milk products does not relate solely on the lactose component.”
Also, the study affirms that "the present results confirm those from a previous study in which the ingestion of pasteurized milk resulted in a discrepancy between blood glucose (GI = 30) and the insulin response (II = 90), which was not present after a carbohydrate equivalent load of pure lactose (GI = 68; II = 50) (1).
(1)Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products. by Östman EM, Elmståhl HGML, Björck IME
link to main study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/80/5/1246?ijkey=6eb64305702b63f226021318353c463fb1f93ce2#R9
link to the supporting study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/1/96?ijkey=a7411fc645a49b11f816c12a5dc6d6172f8c9c72&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha
…
So based on this information, it’s safe to conclude that the Hood Carb Countdown milk has a higher insulin response.
We all know there are times to elevate insulin, so if you choose to consume Carb Countdown, milk, or a hydrolyzed whey shake with high DE carbs in it, do it PWO.[/quote]
are you saying, by posting this article, that ingesting whey/casein (milk proteins) at other times during the day (i.e. not in the post workout “window of opportunity”) will have a NEGATIVE effect on body composition?
If so, you may want to find a new hobby, like knitting.
I guess the Velocity Diet sucks for body comp then, because it has you sucking down milk proteins all day!
Dude, I posted the freaking answer the OP was looking for, “that the Hood Carb Countdown milk has a higher insulin response.” Now with regards to body comp, insulin, blood glucose, and net calorie surplus (deficit) would all need to be accounted for to determine the overall effect.
In the Velocity diet, the latter two are taken care of. There are no studies that I can think of that have looked at a very low carbohydrate calorie deficit diet based largely on milk proteins would have on body comp, but considering that there is a calorie deficit, and the cals are coming from low GI sources, then body comp would be favorable.
Do I think Velocity is the way to go? For a variety of reasons, I think it would be effective, including that it’s easier and cheaper than cooking up an extremely clean diet and measuring all that food out.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Now with regards to body comp, insulin, blood glucose, and net calorie surplus (deficit) would all need to be accounted for to determine the overall effect.[/quote]
And this has been my point from the very beginning. Focusing on the insulin response (or lack thereof) is missing the point.
Your body comp will be determined primarily by your calorie surplus/deficit. Then, below that are issues with macronutrients (basically, are you eating enough protein).
Then below that(MUCH below) are issues with nutrient timing (eating carbs and protein around your workout is about all you can do to optimize this) and finally, issues with individual food sub-types (e.g. sweet potatos vs white potatos, peanut butter vs. almond butter) are completely meaningless.
And finally, it should be mentioned that training and nutrition may be able to influence calorie partitioning perhaps 20% or so, but the other 80% is genetics, and that cannot be changed (save for steroids) so stop obsessing out over meaningless shit.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
…so stop obsessing out over meaningless shit.
[/quote]
I think the discussion of meat:milk protein is not as meaningless as peanut:almonds.
With that said, I don’t think a diet should be based solely on milk protein. Nothing specific I can state, but from a conservatism stand point, there is nothing in nutrition that should be taken to extremes, barring short term body recomp.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
I think the discussion of meat:milk protein is not as meaningless as peanut:almonds.[/quote]
that’s a great opinion you have there. but then again, you know what they say about opinions…
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
With that said, I don’t think a diet should be based solely on milk protein. Nothing specific I can state, but from a conservatism stand point, there is nothing in nutrition that should be taken to extremes, barring short term body recomp.[/quote]
I’m having a hard time understanding your point. I never advocated a milk protein only diet.
But if milk protein elevates insulin (which it does, along with BCAAs by the way) and elevating insulin throughout the day is bad for body composition (which you and others seem to believe)
Then logically, a diet based ENTIRELY on milk protein (e.g. the V-Diet) should, according to you, be BAD for body composition. Guess what…it isn’t.
Have I made my point, or should I continue?
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
I think the discussion of meat:milk protein is not as meaningless as peanut:almonds.
that’s a great opinion you have there. but then again, you know what they say about opinions…
BulletproofTiger wrote:
With that said, I don’t think a diet should be based solely on milk protein. Nothing specific I can state, but from a conservatism stand point, there is nothing in nutrition that should be taken to extremes, barring short term body recomp.
I’m having a hard time understanding your point. I never advocated a milk protein only diet.
But if milk protein elevates insulin (which it does, along with BCAAs by the way) and elevating insulin throughout the day is bad for body composition (which you and others seem to believe)
Then logically, a diet based ENTIRELY on milk protein (e.g. the V-Diet) should, according to you, be BAD for body composition. Guess what…it isn’t.
Have I made my point, or should I continue?[/quote]
You obviously didn’t take the time to read the articles I posted because they say exactly what you just said about “BCAAs.” Maybe you are not capable of understanding those articles, because you don’t even realize that you’re arguing a point that I more or less agree with you on.
[quote]JMoUCF87 wrote:
BulletproofTiger wrote:
I think the discussion of meat:milk protein is not as meaningless as peanut:almonds.
that’s a great opinion you have there. but then again, you know what they say about opinions…
BulletproofTiger wrote:
With that said, I don’t think a diet should be based solely on milk protein. Nothing specific I can state, but from a conservatism stand point, there is nothing in nutrition that should be taken to extremes, barring short term body recomp.
I’m having a hard time understanding your point. I never advocated a milk protein only diet.
But if milk protein elevates insulin (which it does, along with BCAAs by the way) and elevating insulin throughout the day is bad for body composition (which you and others seem to believe)
Then logically, a diet based ENTIRELY on milk protein (e.g. the V-Diet) should, according to you, be BAD for body composition. Guess what…it isn’t.
Have I made my point, or should I continue?[/quote]
Re-read what I wrote homeslice… I said barring short term body recomp. Is V-diet effective? - undoubtedly. Healthy long-term? - unknown. I’m stating that the V-diet is not intended to be used indefinitely. With all nutrition concepts, just taking a conservative approach is usually the best balance between health and objectives.