[quote]throttle132 wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Sounds like a post from JustTheFiction.
pushharder? Try adding more fiber to your diet.
True to form tactics from one who is losing an argument.[/quote]
What argument? You ahven’t said shit worth reading in this entire thread but make ridiculous little one liners. Thanks for “winning”.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Been here since Tuesday asshole. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about as usual. Sack up for once in your life and just slink away.
You get your information from Moveon.org. Know where the 17th. st. canal is dipshit? That’s the one that broke.
What am I on. Lack of sleep and hard work. So please shut the fuck up and get in your car if your coming to help.
You criticizing the response made by others is hysterically funny. I just posted it in our command post. Men had a good laugh at your expense. Real men not pathetic pieces of shit. Drop that.
[/quote]
So emotional. The guilt knowing you helped put him in office again must be unbearable.
Once again, I have not criticized anyone’s efforts other than the president’s. I commend ANYONE doing work down there (including you).
We spent BILLIONS of dollars on emergency response after 9/11 and FEMA SPECIFICALLY ranked a hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the top three worst things that could happen to the US.
Where’s the multi-billion dollar response?! Apparently it all went into buying MRE’s cause it certainly didn’t include a plan.
I didn’t say shit for a week giving the benefit of the doubt. I had to watch Harry Conick Jr walk into a place they said was too dangerous and plead on TV for somebody to just drop off some water, anything.
This ain’t Baghdad or the polar ice cap, jerky. Maybe you and your buddies are doing a bang up job right now and I’m sure everyone will pull together and bring NO back - but if they can’t even deliver bottled water to anyplace inside the US 3 to 5 days after the fact, WTF?! Just some fuckin’ water!
I wish you guys well down there, I really do and I really am coming down myself likely after this month - but what can I say, all they had to do was drop off water and MRE’s on the second day and Bush would have looked like a hero, instead they did NOTHING AT ALL and the whole world saw it, not just me.
JTF, I have to agree with what you have written, and I seriously don’t understand the attempt to make excuses for a very slow response. To hear the head of FEMA claim that he didn’t know the disaster was that bad until Wednesday makes me sick. The entire world knew it was “that bad” before then, yet the man responsible for these disasters forgot to pay his cable bill?
I don’t see a way to spin this one unless somebody in Washington has a time machine.
What is the motivation for defending the president at all costs… Would you be defending a democratic president if he had finished up 2 more days of vacation before responding to a huge crisis?? I don’t get why people think Bush can do absolutely no wrong…he is human, we make mistakes.
We have been able to provide aid around the world in a matter of hours… yet a few miles down the road it takes upwards of 5 days?? I don’t understand how that is justifiable.
I understand the state and the city (which is underwater, in case you missed that part) are initally responsible… however the state is still in the jurisdiction of government control… and this castastrophe ranks well beyond the scope of the state itself.
Why can’t people admit that Bush did something less-than-perfect for once?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
JTF, I have to agree with what you have written, and I seriously don’t understand the attempt to make excuses for a very slow response. To hear the head of FEMA claim that he didn’t know the disaster was that bad until Wednesday makes me sick. The entire world knew it was “that bad” before then, yet the man responsible for these disasters forgot to pay his cable bill?
I don’t see a way to spin this one unless somebody in Washington has a time machine.
[/quote]
Seriously, it was so bad even the guys on FOX were like, WTF?
I certainly didn’t expect any miracles but after watching Harry Connick begging for someone to drop off water at the dome while at the same time the governments’ saying they can’t get in or they had no idea it was so bad - and he’s standing there saying, we just drove right up? At that point I was just becoming disgusted and ashamed.
As gojira pointed out earlier, Wal-Mart got right in but our government couldn’t?
Then there are all these stories of people offering their services, boats, food, water - and getting turned away. The whole thing is truely beyond bizarre - but there it was, sans any conspiracy theory.
Out of FEMA’s top three worst scenerios we’ve already had two of them under Bush - he just needs the earthquake to complete the set. Unfortunately the earthquake will be without warning and isn’t geographically specific like the other two so if it happens don’t expect the swift response of Katrina.
[quote]throttle132 wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Sounds like a post from JustTheFiction.
pushharder? Try adding more fiber to your diet.
True to form tactics from one who is losing an argument.[/quote]
See, it worked.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
hedo wrote:
Been here since Tuesday asshole. You don’t have a clue what you are talking about as usual. Sack up for once in your life and just slink away.
You get your information from Moveon.org. Know where the 17th. st. canal is dipshit? That’s the one that broke.
What am I on. Lack of sleep and hard work. So please shut the fuck up and get in your car if your coming to help.
You criticizing the response made by others is hysterically funny. I just posted it in our command post. Men had a good laugh at your expense. Real men not pathetic pieces of shit. Drop that.
So emotional. The guilt knowing you helped put him in office again must be unbearable.
Once again, I have not criticized anyone’s efforts other than the president’s. I commend ANYONE doing work down there (including you).
We spent BILLIONS of dollars on emergency response after 9/11 and FEMA SPECIFICALLY ranked a hurricane hitting New Orleans as one of the top three worst things that could happen to the US.
Where’s the multi-billion dollar response?! Apparently it all went into buying MRE’s cause it certainly didn’t include a plan.
I didn’t say shit for a week giving the benefit of the doubt. I had to watch Harry Conick Jr walk into a place they said was too dangerous and plead on TV for somebody to just drop off some water, anything.
This ain’t Baghdad or the polar ice cap, jerky. Maybe you and your buddies are doing a bang up job right now and I’m sure everyone will pull together and bring NO back - but if they can’t even deliver bottled water to anyplace inside the US 3 to 5 days after the fact, WTF?! Just some fuckin’ water!
I wish you guys well down there, I really do and I really am coming down myself likely after this month - but what can I say, all they had to do was drop off water and MRE’s on the second day and Bush would have looked like a hero, instead they did NOTHING AT ALL and the whole world saw it, not just me.[/quote]
Well I havedn’t had the luxury of watching tv for the past week so I have no idea what you have been fed by the media. Save your politcal guilt and hate mongering for someone else.
Glad to hear you are coming to save the day. I am sure the people who do this for a living will learn much from you.
I will say again you have no idea what you are talking about. And it is pointless to explain to you since you will soon see for yourself. Everything is easy from afar. You’ll see how much was done. When that happens please post about it.
But if you are actually coming in a month do yourself a favor. Take you shots now literally and figuratively. Get all the venom out and hatred. They are good people here. They love God and Country and they don’t hate the president or anyone else. So leave that shit at home.
Second, in all seriousness, get your shots. In one month this city will be disease ridden. Tetnus, Hep-B, etc. Hep=B’s are done in a series so try and get started or if you have it get it checked. Buy a gallon of bug spray. You’ll need it.
All you partisan hacks have no concept of FEMAs mission.
They are not first responders.
Some (most) of the first responders in NO did a good job in a horrible situation, but they were overwhelmed by the size of the diasaster.
The mayor and the governor did not evacuate early enough.
FEMA is supposed to come in and clean up the mess.
The laying of blame and crying of racism I am seeing is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
In the post 9/11 world is there any excuse for not having disaster plans in place for almost every possible scenario?
That is the exact same question we are asking this administration when it takes three days to get supplies and troops together. If this were another “9/11”, it would be considered complete disregard if it would have taken three days to start moving people out of the wreckage.
[/quote]
ProfX, I believe it was the NYC fire fighters and police who were the ones pulling people out of the wreckage. There was no massive buildup of national guard or military into NYC after 9/11. Esentially, the city took care of it’self, with support from the entire country in the form of donations and volunteers. of course, they weren’t worried to much about getting shot going into NYC.
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
I wasn’t suggesting Blanco’s actions were right or wrong - JTF was claiming that the ‘right’ was saying a state of emergency wasn’t declared until later, which was erroneous.
Actually I was referring to statements from this Wapo article which I wasn’t completely accurate on:
Many Evacuated, but Thousands Still Waiting
White House Shifts Blame to State and Local Officials
A senior administration official said that Bush has clear legal authority to federalize National Guard units to quell civil disturbances under the Insurrection Act and will continue to try to unify the chains of command that are split among the president, the Louisiana governor and the New Orleans mayor.
Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.
Technically you were correct but this statement “As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency, the senior Bush official said.” is still false.[/quote]
‘Wash Post’ Runs A Key Katrina Correction
NEW YORK In its Sunday edition, the Washington Post quoted a “senior Bush official” who said that "as of Saturday [Louisiana Governor] Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency.
“A Sept. 4 article on the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina incorrectly said that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco (D) had not declared a state of emergency. She declared an emergency on Aug. 26.”
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001054596
Major faux pas from an administration who has nothing to worry about and a news source who takes them at their word and doesn’t do a simple facts check.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The laying of blame and crying of racism I am seeing is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.[/quote]
And I’m disgusted lately that whenever large numbers of people die, NOBODY gets blamed.
how about these large numbers of ppl who died, take responsibility for their own lives instead of waiting for Daddy Bush to put the spoon to their mouths? People need brains, poor, broke? I dont care, if you were told to leave there would be no talk about any of this. Plain and simple.
[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Dammit, I want a lot more than that from the evil Booooosh! He had no right to be spendin’ money fightin’ an illegal war in Iraq when he coulda been building a huge 70,000 foot high wall in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic that woulda deflected this storm and others like it! The wall could extend from Brownsville, TX to Lubec, Maine. That stinkin’ Booooosh! No wonder nobody likes him![/quote]
2 questions:
[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The laying of blame and crying of racism I am seeing is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
And I’m disgusted lately that whenever large numbers of people die, NOBODY gets blamed.[/quote]
Blame the French for building a city below sea level.
Blame the mayor. He should have evacuated earlier. He is the one that threw out the evacuation plan and didn’t replace it.
Blame the people that elected a bullshit artist like the mayor.
Blame the people that could have left but didn’t.
Blame yourself for not going down there to help out.
I choose to place blame on Mother Nature.
[quote]Mr. Moose wrote:
Buck Nasty wrote:
to “stay the course” we have everything under control."
If this is the presidents definition of “control”, I would hate to see things getting out of control.
[/quote]
Take a look at Fallujah.
How long was it since he declared “mission accomplished” on that one?
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Take a look at Fallujah.
How long was it since he declared “mission accomplished” on that one?
[/quote]
I swear the ignorance level of some folks on here is just sad.
“Mission accomplished” was the statement made when we had beaten the Iraqi Army. It was an end of hostilities against the nation of Iraq.
No one ever said that in reference to the terrorist takeover of Fallujah.
I swear read a damn newspaper, or watch the freakin news before you get on here and display you obvious stupidity.
Concerning protocols and what not, there seems to be a whole lot of red tape you have to go through in order to get things in motion – which is unsurprising, unfortunately, when you are talking about bureaucracies pulling together and/or overseeing other bureaucracies.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_09_04_corner-archive.asp#075640
WHOSE AUTHORITY? [Jim Robbins]
Just for reference, the respective state/federal responsibilities for incident response are laid out in Homeland Security Presidential Directive (HSPD) 5, Section 6, ( Briefing Room | The White House ) to whit:
(6) The Federal Government recognizes the roles and responsibilities of State and local authorities in domestic incident management. Initial responsibility for managing domestic incidents generally falls on State and local authorities. The Federal Government will assist State and local authorities when their resources are overwhelmed, or when Federal interests are involved. The Secretary will coordinate with State and local governments to ensure adequate planning, equipment, training, and exercise activities. The Secretary will also provide assistance to State and local governments to develop all-hazards plans and capabilities, including those of greatest importance to the security of the United States, and will ensure that State, local, and Federal plans are compatible.
Note that some of the “blame Bush” crowd are trying to read section 4 of this directive to argue that the President had the authority to act unilaterally without state permission, showing that they don’t understand Federalism, not to mention what a policy directive is. But it’s interesting that they have found a form of unilateralism that they like.
and
http://corner.nationalreview.com/05_09_04_corner-archive.asp#075640
MORE ON WHOSE AUTHORITY? [Jim Robbins]
I earlier noted HSPD-5, which called on the Department of Homeland Security to formulate a National Response Plan (NRP) ( http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf ) to coordinate incidents such as terrorist attacks or natural disasters. The NRP further details the relationship between states and the Federal government during the initial response to a disaster. The Feds may take charge following procedures as established in the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act ( http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm ). The procedures are detailed in Appendix 5, Section 2 (p. 9) of the NRP: “Immediately after an incident, local jurisdictions respond using available resources and notify State response elements. As information emerges, they also assess the situation and the need for State assistance. The State reviews the situation, mobilizes State resources, and informs the DHS/EPR/FEMA Regional Office of actions taken. The Governor activates the State emergency operations plan, proclaims or declares a state of emergency, and requests a State/DHS joint Preliminary Damage Assessment (PDA) to determine if sufficient damage has occurred to justify a request for a Presidential declaration of a major disaster or emergency. Based upon the results of the PDA, the Governor may request a Presidential declaration and define the kind of Federal assistance needed.”
Point being, the Feds can’t just seize control.
Posted at 01:33 PM
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Take a look at Fallujah.
How long was it since he declared “mission accomplished” on that one?
[/quote]
Christ, you idiots keep beating the same dead horse. Bush was on an aircraft carrier who was returning from the Persion Gulf after they had completed their mission. Hence, “Mission Accomplished”.
Did he say, “The war’s over”? No.
Put down the buggy whip, and step away from the dead horse!
A very good analysis of the overall situation from the BBC:
Multiple failures caused relief crisis
Analysis
By Paul Reynolds
World Affairs correspondent, BBC News website
The breakdown of the relief operation in New Orleans was the result of multiple failures by city, state and federal authorities.
There was no one cause. The failures began long before the hurricane with a gamble that a Category Four or Five hurricane would not strike New Orleans.
They continued with an inadequate evacuation plan and culminated in a relief effort hampered by lack of planning, supplies and manpower, and a breakdown in communications of the most basic sort.
On top of all this, there is the question of whether an earlier intervention by President Bush could have a made a big difference.
The planning
Before Hurricane Katrina struck, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (Fema) was confident that it was ready. Its director, Michael Brown, said: “Fema has pre-positioned many assets including ice, water, food and rescue teams to move into the stricken areas as soon as it is safe to do so.”
Mr Brown even told the Associated Press news agency that the evacuation had gone well. “I was impressed with the evacuation, once it was ordered it was very smooth,” he said.
Yet on Saturday 28 August, the day before the evacuation was ordered, Mr Brown did not say that people should leave the city. All he said was:
“There’s still time to take action now, but you must be prepared and take shelter and other emergency precautions immediately.”
This has made Fema appear complacent in the period immediately before the hurricane arrived. If it did not expect the worst, it would not have prepared for the worst.
The Brown statement went out on the same day that the National Hurricane Center was warning that Katrina was strengthening to the top Category Five. Everyone knew the dangers of a Category Five. A Fema exercise last year called “Hurricane Pam” had looked at a Category Three, and that was bad enough.
The evacuation
It was announced at a news conference by the Mayor Ray Nagin on Sunday 28 August, less than 24 hours before the hurricane struck early the next morning.
The question has to be asked: Why was it not ordered earlier?
The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation.
The night before, National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield had called Mayor Nagin to tell him that an evacuation was needed. Why were these calls necessary?
Again, as with Fema, the New Orleans mayor should have known that on the Saturday, Katrina was strengthening to Five.
It was already clear on the Sunday that the evacuation would not cover many of the poor, the sick and those who did not pay heed.
The mayor said people going to the Superdome, a sports venue named as an alternative destination for those unable to leave, should bring supplies for several days. He also said police could commandeer any vehicle for the evacuation.
But how much support was there at the Superdome? And how much city transport was actually used? There is a photo showing city school buses still lined up, in waterlogged parking lots, after the hurricane.
Update: a reader has pointed out that there are detailed plans for Louisiana and the City of New Orleans for an evacuation and these make it clear that buses should be used to transport those without cars. See links.
There are questions for the mayor, dubbed heroic by some, to answer.
The relief operation
The scenes which most shocked the world were at the Superdome and the nearby Convention Center. Yet it turns out that neither Mr Brown nor his boss, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, knew about the crises there until Thursday.
This, despite numerous television reports from the scene. It was not until Friday that the first relief convoy arrived.
“The very day that this emerged in the press, I was on a video conference with all the officials, including state and local officials. And nobody, none of the state and local officials or anybody else, was talking about a Convention Center,” Chertoff told CNN. Note how he blames local officials.
Nor did he know about the breach in the floodwalls until a day later.
“It was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap, and that essentially the lake was going to drain into the city,” he said on NBC.
Other, more successful operations, notably the airlift by the Coast Guard, should be acknowledged.
And in a disaster area the size of Great Britain, resources were stretched.
But ironically the failure at the Convention Center would have been fairly easy to put right. Reporters drove there without problems. One took a taxi.
What, one wonders, was Fema/the mayor’s office/the governor’s office doing while all that was played out on live TV?
One lesson agencies might want to learn is that someone senior should do nothing but monitor TV.
Some of this might explain why people at the Superdome and the Convention Center had to wait so long. It does not explain why communications were not better.
Another sign of slowness was that the Department of Homeland Security did not issue the first ever declaration of an “incident of national significance” until the Wednesday. Such a declaration allows the federal government a greater role in taking decisions.
In fact, the arguments between federal and state authorities about who was able to do what is another part of this story.
The Department of Homeland Security said the local authorities were inadequate. The locals responded that Fema had been obstructive - it had, for example, stopped three truckloads of water sent by the store Wal-Mart. And so on.
It took days to sort out who should send troops and from where.
Indeed, the intricacies of the various responsibilties of state and federal authorities do not always allow for quick decision making, though that did not stop rapid action in New York City on 9/11.
Nor does Governor Blanco escape criticism. It took until Thursday, for example, for her to sign an order releasing school buses to move the evacuees.
The president’s response
Mr Bush has been blamed for failing to rise to the occasion. His critics argue that he took too long to get back to Washington and did not provide the inspirational leadership needed at such a time. Nor, it is said, did he intervene early enough to get things moving.
Washington Post correspondent Dan Balz concluded:
“Anger has been focused on Bush and his administration to a degree unprecedented in his presidency. Senator Mary Landrieu [a Louisiana Democrat] said in an ABC News interview that aired Sunday that she would consider punching the president and others for their response to what happened there. Local officials, some in tears, have angrily accused the administration of callousness and negligence.”
The president’s defenders point out that it was he who urged an evacuation of New Orleans (he has no legal power to order one) and that he did acknowledge the “unacceptable” pace of the relief effort. Further, they say that aid is now flowing and reconstruction will take place.
Another issue for Mr Bush is why Michael Brown was appointed director of Fema. He had previously been its deputy and had been hired as its general counsel by the director Joe Allbaugh, George Bush’s chief of staff when he was Texas governor. Mr Brown, a lawyer from Oklahoma, played a role in studying the government’s response to national emergencies. Before that he had run the Arab horse association.
Senator Hillary Clinton has said that Fema should be removed from the Homeland Security Department and made an independent agency again.
The gamble
When Hurricane Camille, a rare top Category Five storm, hit Mississippi in 1969, just missing New Orleans, the levees around the city were strengthened - but only enough to protect against a Category Three hurricane.
The gamble was taken that another Category Five would not threaten New Orleans anytime soon. This attitude prevailed among successive administrations.
Lt General Carl Strock, the Army Corps of Engineers commander, admitted that there was a collective mindset - that New Orleans would not be hit. Washington rolled the dice, he said.
After flooding in 1995, the existing system was improved. However, the sums were relatively small. About $500m was spent over the next 10 years.
From 2003 onwards, the Bush administration cut funds amid charges from the Army Corps of Engineers that the money was transferred to Iraq instead. The latest annual budget was cut from $36.5m to $10.4m.
A study to examine defences against a category Four or Five storm was proposed, at a cost of $4m. The Times-Picayune quoted the Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi as saying: “The Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies.”
But in any event, there was no plan for a major strengthening. This would have taken billions of dollars and many years.
And an Army Corps of Engineers spokeswoman, Connie Gillette, said there had never been any plans or funds to improve those floodwalls which had failed.
Update: a reader has pointed out a quote in the New York Times indicating that the failed floodwalls had in fact previously been strengthened:
‘"Shea Penland, director of the Pontchartrain Institute for Environmental Studies at the University of New Orleans, said [it] was particularly surprising because the break was “along a section that was just upgraded.” “It did not have an earthen levee,” Dr. Penland said. “It had a vertical concrete wall several feel thick.”’ It is a long and complex chain of responsibility.
All these issues, and many more, will now be the subject of congressional and other inquiries.
Rainjack,The ignorance level lies with daddy bush,They had all the troops and resources there the first time and Did’nt complete the job.Thay should have listened to Scwarzkopf!!!