Brokeback Propaganda

[terribleivan]

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
terribleivan wrote:

Thank you for elaborating on that point. If God did not want Christianity to survive, it would have certainly been snuffed out. But, throughout all the adversity, Christians grow stronger. Quite amazing.

If God did not want homosexuality to survive, it would have certainly been snuffed out. Isn’t that your logic?

You expect a group of humans to survive adversity and NOT grow stronger because of it? Have you no faith in mankind?

You completely missed the point.

Christianity has faced long, persistant, violent opposition. The persecution was so fierce that in the early days of Christianity when the Romans feed Christians to the lions, the lions eventually refused to eat human flesh because they were thrown so many Christians. Despite this, Christianity flurished - a testament to God’s favor.

Homosexuality has NOT faced long, persistant, violent opposition. As forlife has noted several times, many great societies embrased homosexuality. The Greeks and the Romans are the most notable. But, dispite the acceptance of homosexuality, the civilations fell. I do believe that was a punishment inflicted by God.

You are in a subject to goes way over your head. You may wish to stop while you are ahead.

Ivan

I’ll ignore the presumptious conclusion of your post, because the rest of it enlightened me as to what you were saying earlier.

I completely disagree with your claim that homosexuality has not faced long, violent opposition. Since Constantine came to power homosexuality was punished with death in the Roman Empire. If the Roman Empire fell in divine retribution for embracing homosexuality, why was it not saved by Constantine’s damnation of the act? Throughout Europe in the Middle Ages, and until 1861 in England, homosexuality was punished with death. It would seem that widespread condemnation of gays in Europe coincides with the rise of Christianity. You would think that a group that suffered such fierce discrimination itself would have learned something.[/quote]

Are you the one who asked for references before? Now it’s my turn. Please provide them.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
terribleivan wrote:
Homosexuality has NOT faced long, persistant, violent opposition. Ivan

Tell that to the gay Jews that wore the pink triangle in the concentration camps…they were persecuted as the lowest of the low.

I don’t see many Christians being denied the right to marry people they love, to adopt children, or to hold a job without fear of being fired due to who they are.

What I do see is a small subset of religious fundamentalists touting themselves as martyrs while hypocritically persecuting others that don’t share their view of the world. [/quote]

I had no idea that my post would anger athiests and homosexuals alike. Birds of a feather…

The jews all faced serious persecution. Did you see other gays with the triangle during that time? If not, I would be hesitant to say gay jews got it worse than non-gay jews. I mean, toruture, murder of your family, and death is pretty much equal when it happens to all.

Did you forget about all of your posts about how prominent homosexuality has been in past cultures, or are you just trying to downplay that side of things now to meet your own needs?

[Donut62]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:

Are you the one who asked for references before? Now it’s my turn. Please provide them.
[/quote]

Here’s a few you can read. There’s a lot of stuff that isn’t too hard to find:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gaymidages.html

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/malalas.html

LGBT rights by country or territory

Violence against LGBT people

It can be found that tolerance for homosexuality fell very sharply in the 13th Century, and this continued up until the time of the French Revolution. Castration and branding was the norm for openly gay people living in France or Spain. Even in the United States sodomy was punishable by death until 1779 when Thomas Jefferson did away with the law.

[terribleivan]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
While the Soviet’s “religious toleration” stance was a facade, tens of millions of Orthodox christians were not slain for being christian.

While this is not my bailiwick and I know that stellar is more than capable of giving you the information that you need, I did come up with this for your perusal:

http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/memoryof.htm

It appears from this very preliminary search that stellar is far more right than wrong!
[/quote]

Profound evidence. Thank you for providing that Zeb.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You have not pointed out even one lie. Do you know thatwhen you accuse someone of lying when you have no proof is actually LYING![/quote]

Lie #1:
Gays should try to change their sexual orientation

Fact #1:

The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

Lie #2:
People can change their sexual orientation if they try hard enough

Fact #2:
The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states:

Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”

Lie #3:
Changing one’s sexual orientation is not harmful

Fact #3:
According to the American Medical Association:

Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.

Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to that document:

No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful

National Association of Social Workers:

…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You have not pointed out even one lie. Do you know thatwhen you accuse someone of lying when you have no proof is actually LYING!

Lie #1:
Gays should try to change their sexual orientation

Fact #1:
The most important fact about ‘reparative therapy,’ also sometimes known as ‘conversion’ therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, [b]have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a ‘cure.’

Lie #2:
People can change their sexual orientation if they try hard enough

Fact #2:
The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states:
Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.

The Surgeon General’s Call to Action to Promote Sexual Health and Responsible Sexual Behavior (2001) asserts that homosexuality is not “a reversible lifestyle choice.”

Lie #3:
Changing one’s sexual orientation is not harmful

Fact #3:
According to the American Medical Association:
Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an un-accepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians.

Several leading medical and mental health organizations developed and endorsed “Just the Facts About Sexual Orientation & Youth: A Primer for Principals, Educators and School Personnel” in 1999. According to that document:
No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful

National Association of Social Workers:
…health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people’s sexual orientation through ‘reparative therapy’ and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.
[/quote]

If Zeb and Stellar have provided evidence that demonstrates thousands of homosexuals who have changed their sexual orientation only to lead happy lives, how are these points lies? At best you have conflicting information.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yes, I’ve heard that lame argument from you and your “friends” many times. Let me point something out:

BEING A WOMAN OR A MINORITY IS GENETIC

No one knows why people are homosexual. But for sure there is no proof that it’s genetic.[/quote]

1. You missed the point of the comparison. I said that historically, groups have been discriminated against by people that believed themselves to be in the right, and used the bible to support that belief. Bigots are always in self-denial.

2. Every time I have provided a study showing a genetic connection to homosexuality, you have blatantly ignored it. Let’s see if you stick your head in the sand once again:

Brain differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals:

In 1990, D.F. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males’ brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed [the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart.

Also in 1990, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was significantly larger in homosexual subjects than in heterosexuals.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men than in heterosexual men. LeVay concluded that “homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior”?.
LeVay S., Science, 1991

The anterior hypothalamus of the brain participates in the regulation of male-typical sexual behavior. The volumes of four cell groups in this region [interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 1, 2, 3, and 4] were measured in postmortem tissue from three subject groups: women, men who were presumed to be heterosexual, and homosexual men. No differences were found between the groups in the volumes of INAH 1, 2, or 4. As has been reported previously, INAH 3 was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the women. It was also, however, more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the homosexual men. This finding indicates that INAH is dimorphic with sexual orientation, at least in men, and suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.

A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men...

In 2005, Wysocki asked 80 homosexual and heterosexual men and women (20 of each) to sniff two samples of human sweat and choose the odor they preferred. Wysocki?s team made four comparisons: sweat from gay men versus straight men, gay men versus straight women, straight women versus lesbian women, and gay men versus lesbian women. Wysoci found that homosexual men had a strong preference for the natural scent of other gay men, which heterosexuals found unattractive. Wysocki concluded: ?Our findings support the contention that gender preference has a biological component that is reflected in both the production of different body odors and in the perception of and response to the body.?
In a second study published also in 2005 (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), a different team of researchers used positron emission tomography scanning to examine the brain?s response to two hormone derivatives, AND and EST, which have been proposed as human pheromones ? powerful scents known to convey sexual signals in many species. The scans showed a different pattern of brain activity in response in heterosexual and homosexual men, particularly in a brain region known as the hypothalamus that is involved in sexual arousal. The brain activity of gay men turned out to be much more similar to that of straight women, suggesting that sexual orientation rather than gender was the determinant.

Other biological differences:

In 1990, researchers at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada examined the occurrence of left-handedness in heterosexual and homosexual women. Brain organization in left-handed people is known to be slightly different than in right-handed people. For example, left-handed people tend to have their language area centered in the right hemisphere of their brain; it is generally accepted that the area for language is in the left hemisphere. Even though only thirty-five percent of the general population is totally left-handed, the scientists found that sixty-nine percent of homosexual women were totally left-handed . As a result, they suggested that homosexuals have a different brain organization than heterosexuals. Referring to studies in which women with higher than normal levels of masculinizing hormones such as testosterone were more likely to be left-handed and gay, they hypothesized that atypical sex hormone levels during pregnancy may have affected lesbians? early fetal development.

In 1994, Hall and Kimura studied the fingerprint ridges heterosexuals and homosexuals. After the sixteenth week of pregnancy, fingerprints are known to be unchangeable, so if there were any significant fingerprint differences in the two groups, one could argue that sexual orientation may be determined before birth. In fact, Hall and Kimura did find that the difference between the number of ridges on the left hands of homosexual men was greater than that of heterosexuals. Citing that individuals with higher left-hand ridge counts perform differently on sexually dimorphic cognitive tasks than do those with higher right-hand ridge counts, the researchers concluded that there must be an ?early biological contribution to adult sexual orientation?.

Twin studies

In 1991, Bailey and Pillard studied three all male groups: identical twins, fraternal twins, and men with adoptive brothers.Of the 170 relatives examined, 52% of the identical twins were both gay, 22% of fraternal twins were both gay, and 11% of the adoptive brothers were both gay.

In 1992, Bailey and Pillard followed-up their experiment on homosexual men by studying identical twin, fraternal twin, and nongenetically related adopted sisters. As expected, their results mirrored those found in their gay brother study. Whereas only six percent of adopted sisters were both lesbian, sixteen percent of fraternal twin sisters and forty-eight percent of identical twin sisters were both lesbian . Clearly, the basis for a similar argument for predetermined homosexuality in women has been laid.

In 1993, Whitam, Diamond, & Martin found that 65% of identical twins were both gay, whereas only 29% of fraternal twins were gay.

Genetic differences
In 2004, Camperio-Ciani studied 98 homosexual and 100 heterosexual men and their relatives, which included more than 4,600 people overall. The female relatives on the mother’s side of the homosexual men tended to have more offspring than the female relatives on the father’s side. This suggests that women who pass on the gay trait to their male offspring are also more fertile. In comparison, the female relatives on both the mother’s and the father’s side of the heterosexual men did not appear to be as fertile, having fewer offspring.
In 2006, research published in the journal ?Human Genetics? found that the genetics of mothers of multiple gay sons act differently than those of other women. Scientists looked at 97 mothers of gay sons and 103 mothers without gay sons to see if there was any difference in how they handled their X chromosomes. They found that almost one fourth of the mothers who had more than one gay son processed X chromosomes in their bodies in the same way. Normally, women randomly process the chromosomes in one of two ways – half go one way, half go the other. The research “confirms that there is a strong genetic basis for sexual orientation, and that for some gay men, genes on the X chromosome are involved,” said study co-author Sven Bocklandt, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of California at Los Angeles. “When we looked at women who have gay kids, in those with more than one gay son, we saw a quarter of them inactivate the same X in virtually every cell we checked,” Bocklandt said. “That’s extremely unusual.”

[terribleivan]

[quote]forlife wrote:

I don’t see many Christians being denied the right to marry people they love, to adopt children, or to hold a job without fear of being fired due to who they are.

[/quote]

I wouldn’t equate getting fired from a job with the persecution and murder of tens of millions of Christians.

The question I posed was the degree of persecution throughout history. Homosexuals have not faced the same persecution throughout history that Christians have. You have already reinforced this with your earlier posts claiming that homosexuals were embrased by so many other cultures.

[terribleivan]

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
terribleivan wrote:

Are you the one who asked for references before? Now it’s my turn. Please provide them.

Here’s a few you can read. There’s a lot of stuff that isn’t too hard to find:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gaymidages.html

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/malalas.html

LGBT rights by country or territory

Violence against LGBT people

It can be found that tolerance for homosexuality fell very sharply in the 13th Century, and this continued up until the time of the French Revolution. Castration and branding was the norm for openly gay people living in France or Spain. Even in the United States sodomy was punishable by death until 1779 when Thomas Jefferson did away with the law.[/quote]

I read your articles, but they still don’t show homosexuality has been persecuted to the degree of Christianity throughout time.

These article primarilly speak to individuals caught in leud act be murdered. They do not demonstrate a proactive attempt to rid the world of homosexuals.

As you research this topic, you should read the other 65 pages of this thread. forlife told us time and time again that other cultures embrase homosexuality, so for you or he to prove otherwise will destroy the merrit of his point. Be careful.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You sit there and spout off but have yet to respond as to why the homosexual health stats look so bleak.[/quote]

I’ve addressed this numerous times already.

1. You continue to ignore individual differences in the gay community. Being gay is not inherently “unhealthy”. Just because some people practice unsafe sex doesn’t mean all people do. One-third of gays don’t even practice anal sex!

2. You love to refer to anal sex as an exclusively gay act, while ignoring that 40% of heterosexual men also practice anal sex (according to the CDC). You also ignore that the large majority of new HIV cases outside of the US are heterosexuals. If you want to help people, focus on the group that by sheer numbers you would be most likely to help.

3. Your statistics fail to differentiate between homosexuals that take common sense precautions in their sexual practices from those that do not. Sexual diseases can be greatly reduced simply by using common sense (like using a condom).

4. Every major medical and mental health organization in the world has said that gays should NOT try to change their orientation. Obviously, if being gay were as dangerous as you like to hyperventilate about, they wouldn’t make such a recommendation.

[Headhunter]

Forlife,

You do realize that scientists who go outside of the ‘party line’ will often suddenly see their funding mysteriously cut off? Just like with the creation of the AIDs ‘disease’, if you call it out, good luck getting funding. To say that your research leads to the conclusion that a homosexual lifestyle is destructive means goodbye to your funding.

Unpopular results take a great deal of courage to publish.

I urge you to read www.virusmyth.net and see how science works. It’s an eye-opener.

[stellar_horizon]

In response to your post, yes, 90,000,000 people (the predominant majority of which were Orthodox Christian). It sounds devastating and almost unreal, but realize that these people were killed in succession and not in one sweeping wave. The onslaught lasted for almost 30 years… Here’s the reference you pleaded for.

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
90 million? Great, heaping buckets of bullshit. You’re telling me that they killed 1/3 of the total population of their country? References?
[/quote]
TO THE VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, LEST WE FORGET
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
December 7, 1995

In 1993, President Clinton signed Public Law 103-199, authorizing a memorial in Washington to those who died in the unprecedented imperial Communist holocaust'' that began in 1917. It is a memorial long overdue. And it is well-suited to Washington, the capital of the Free World and the headquarters of what President Kennedy called the long twilight struggle’’ against the totalitarians of the Left. When completed, the Victims of Communism Memorial will include a museum documenting the crimes committed by the disciples of Marx and Lenin; original artifacts from the bitter night of Communist brutality (a piece of the Berlin Wall, a cell from the ``Hanoi Hilton’'); and a database preserving the names of those wiped out in history’s greatest slaughter.

Or at least as many of those names as can be identified. It is impossible that we shall ever know them all. Every one of the hundreds of thousands of Cossacks butchered on Lenin’s orders in 1919? Every Miskito Indian killed in Nicaragua under the Sandinistas? Every Chinese peasant, all 2 million-plus of them, obliterated during Mao Zedong’s ``land reform’’ in the early 1950s? Impossible.

For pure murderous evil, there has never been a force to compare with Communism. The Nazis didn’t come close. The Holocaust was uniquely malignant - never before or since did one people construct a vast industry of death for the sole purpose of rounding up and destroying every single member of another people. But the Nazis exterminated 11 million innocents; the Communist death toll surpasses 100 million. Nazi power lasted from 1933 to 1945. The Communist nightmare began in November 1917, and continues to this day.

Savagery has always been a hallmark of Communism. It is an ideology that requires the destruction of human beings. We have never rejected terror in principle,'' wrote Lenin in 1901, nor can we do so.‘’

Half a century later, even as he denounced the extremes to which his predecessors went, Nikita Khrushchev vowed that the terror so esteemed by Lenin would go on. The questioning of Stalin's terror,'' he cautioned the Twentieth Party Congress in 1956, may lead to the questioning of terror in general. But Bolshevism believes in the use of terror.‘’ Not long afterward, Khrushchev sent 3,000 Soviet tanks to crush the Hungarian freedom fighters.

Communism equals murder. Everywhere. Always.

In Ukraine, for example, where 7 million people were starved to death on the Kremlin’s orders. If you go now to the Ukraine or the North Caucuses,'' wrote British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge in 1933, exceedingly beautiful countries and formerly amongst the most fertile in the world, you will find them like a desert; . . . no livestock or horses; villages deserted; peasants famished, often their bodies swollen, unutterably wretched.‘’ Farmers who took grain or vegetables from their own land were shot. Dead bodies littered the streets of Kharkov, the capital. It was,'' an eyewitness later recalled, as if the Black Death had passed through.‘’

Communism equaled murder in Ethiopia, where Mengistu Haile Mariam became dictator in 1977 and embarked on what he called his ``Red Terror.‘’ Tens of thousands were massacred, including the graduating seniors of almost every high school in Addis Ababa.

Communism equaled murder in North Vietnam as far back as 1945, when Ho Chi Minh resolved to annihilate his Nationalist rivals. It was appalling,'' recorded the historian Lucien Bodard. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of men had been liquidated . . … The intention was that horror and dread should extinguish the last trace of respect for them among the masses: Their execution had to be both shameful and terrifying. That was the reason for the mass executions of hundreds at once, the fields of prisoners buried alive, the harrows dragged over men buried up to the neck.‘’

Communism equaled murder in Tibet, where Mao’s campaign to extirpate Buddhist culture turned 1.2 million Tibetans into corpses. It equaled murder in gentle Cambodia, where the bloodlust of the Khmer Rouge vaporized one-third of the nation in less than four years. It equaled murder in Cuba, in East Germany, in Afghanistan. From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic - murder. In the Gulag and the laogai - murder. At Tienanmen Square - murder. In the Korean War and the Vietnam War, in the forest of Katyn and the dungeons of the Lubyanka - murder.

One hundred million victims of Communism. And those are only the victims who were slain. It doesn’t include those who were maimed or driven mad. Those whose lives went dark when a loved one was butchered. Those who spun out their years in potato queues, in vodka stupors, in daily fear. It doesn’t include those who wasted 30 years as slaves in Siberia. The boat people who flung themselves into the South China Sea. The stifled poets, the gagged priests, the tormented refuseniks, the exiled democrats.

Rarely do we think of them, or of the hundred million. We forget how pathologically evil Communism has been, or why we poured so much blood and treasure into fighting the Cold War. It is to correct that amnesia that the Victims of Communism Memorial will be built.

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You are going to have to get a firm grip on reality. The fact is there will be NO gay marriage. And gay adoption while allowed in some instances is currently being reversed.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. To say that gays aren’t discriminated against is a crock.[/quote]

Of course they are “discriminated against!” When it comes to “family” and things of that nature.

However, I feel very strongly that no one should be discriminated against at work or for any other reason just because they have a same sex attraction. What people do on their own time is their own business.

You can quote me on that

[Donut62]

[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
In response to your post, yes, 90,000,000 people (the predominant majority of which were Orthodox Christian). It sounds devastating and almost unreal, but realize that these people were killed in succession and not in one sweeping wave. The onslaught lasted for almost 30 years… Here’s the reference you pleaded for.

[/quote]

I really don’t care about the main arguments of this thread or supporting anyone’s points other than the ones I raised. You are correct in pointing out that there were not huge “kill the gays!” banners flying in Middle Age’s Europe like “Kill the christians” banners were flying under Nero. It was definetely not something you openly wanted to flaunt, especially in France and Spain from 1200-1700, because being gay could get you killed. Just because they aren’t ahead in the numbers game doesn’t discredit their persecution.

My main beef was the statistic that 90 million people were killed BECAUSE they were orthodox christians was bullshit, and the article ZEB found and you just posted proved my point. The people were killed because they weren’t communists. And they weren’t all in the USSR, between 1917-1945, as was originally claimed. That figure includes Vietnamese, Greeks, South Americans, etc. Just look at the millions of little kids (now young men, or old men by Afghani standards) running around Afghanistan without hands and arms from the Soviets. They weren’t Orthodox, they were in the way of the communist ideals.

HIJACK: I found the story on here of you getting hit by Frazier, ZEB. I laughed hysterically and I envy you, you bastard.

[ZEB]

forlife,

You started out in this thread pretty well. While I didn’t agree with one thing that you posted at least you had a little integrity.

To say that the thousands cases where people changed their same sex attraction is a lie, simply speaks to your desperation on the matter.

Oh I know you wish that there was no evidence of people changing. But the fact is their are volumes of data that speak to this very issue.

They changed and are living happily ever after.

Why does that anger you so?

You don’t have to try to change (again). You can continue to live the live of an active homosexual man. this is America you have that right.

But you really should not denigrate the fine efforts of all those people who did not want to become a statistic.

You have now slipped beyond being someone who is debating a point on a thread. You are now simply making stuff up to try to…?

What the heck are you trying to do? You have no more credibility left.

[ZEB]

[quote]terribleivan wrote:

If Zeb and Stellar have provided evidence that demonstrates thousands of homosexuals who have changed their sexual orientation only to lead happy lives, how are these points lies? At best you have conflicting information.[/quote]

Thanks Terribleivan, but I think he just did himself and his cause a great deal of harm by lying.

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:

1. You missed the point of the comparison. I said that historically, groups have been discriminated against by people that believed themselves to be in the right, and used the bible to support that belief. Bigots are always in self-denial.[/quote]

That is absurd on it’s face!

You are telling us that no one can discriminate against anyone or anything? We simply have to great one and all with open arms all the time no matter what?

What happens if a child molester moves in next door? Gee, I don’t want him to feel out of place. Perhaps I’ll ask him to baby sit my three young children some night.

You are getting to be a bigger joke with every post.

Homsexuality is not genetic.

Being a bum is not genetic.

Get the picture?

2. Every time I have provided a study showing a genetic connection to homosexuality, you have blatantly ignored it.

Have you completely lost your mind?

The best scientists in the business who study this stuff daily don’t have conclusive evidence that it is genetic.

But you in your all knowing Internet wisdom have that proof…LOL

I’ll supply you with 100 studies that demonstrate that it is purely nurture instead of nature.

What does that mean?

Here you go dig through this and learn (Zeb eye roll):

(1995) Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us. Child Abuse and Neglect. 19: 582.
59% of male child sex offenders had been ?victim of contact sexual abuse as a child.?
Byne, W., (1994). The Biological Evidence Challenged. Scientific American, 54.

“The incidence of homosexuality in the adopted brothers of homosexuals (11%) was much higher than recent estimates for the rate of homosexuality in the population (1 to 5%).”
“Indeed, perhaps the major finding of these heritability studies is that despite having all of their genes in common and having prenatal and postnatal environments as close to identical as possible, approximately half of the identical twins were nonetheless discordant for orientation. This finding underscores just how little is known about the origins of sexual orientation.”

Byne, W., Parsons, B. (1993, March). Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised. Archives of General Psychiatry. 50: 228-39 (228).
?It is imperative that clinicians and behavioral scientists begin to appreciate the complexities of sexual orientation and resist the urge to search for simplistic explanations, either psychosocial or biologic.?

?Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking.?
“Although identical twins have the same genetic code, non-identical twins and regular siblings share the same proportion of genetic material. Therefore, the genetic theories should show a similar amount of homosexual concordance between non-identical twins and regular siblings.”

“First, they point out the fact that the study rests on the assumption that the relevant environment is the same for identical twins and non-identical twins. Then, the effects of potential bias in the sample is called into question, as Bailey and Pillard recruited their homosexual research subjects by advertising in various homosexually-oriented publications.”

“Third, there was no way to separate the intermingling of environmental and genetic effects, since all sets of twins in the study had been raised together and presumably subject to most, if not all, of the same environmental effects.”
“The most interesting question, however, is that if there is something in the genetic code that makes a person homosexual, why did not all of the identical twins become homosexual, since they have the exact same genetic code?”

“While all behavior must have an ultimate biologic substrate, the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from a dissatisfaction with the current status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking. In an alternative model, temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieus and the individual’s sexuality emerges.”

Chapman, B., Brannock, J. (1987) Proposed model of lesbian identity development. An empirical examination. Journal of Homosexuality. 14:69-80.
63% of lesbians surveyed stated that they had chosen to be lesbians, 28% felt they had no choice, and 11% did not know why they were lesbians.
Elliott, D.M., Brier, J. (1992, February). The Sexually Abused Boy: Problems in Manhood. Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality. 26 (2): 68-71.

Boys who were sexually molested have subsequently ?a higher incidence of homosexuality.?
Friedman, Richard, Downey, Jennifer. (1993) Neurobiology and Sexual Orientation: Current Relationships, 5. J. Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences 131, 139.

“Some typical childhood factors related to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; parent, sibling, peer relationships; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved, unapproving; perception of parental perfection required; perception of mother as being too close, too involved; premature introduction to sexuality (such as child abuse or incest); gender confusion; defensive detachment, reparative drive, same-sex ambivalence; unmet affection needs; diminished/distorted masculinity, femininity.”

“?homosexual men are more likely to become sexually active at much younger ages than heterosexual men. The average age of homosexual males at their first sexual encounter was 12.7, versus 15.7 for heterosexual males.”

“This evidence may suggest that abuse and early sexual experiences can contribute to homosexuality, perhaps because of familiarity with sexual acts, and in some cases because of an initial sexual experience with someone of the same gender.”
Golwyn, D., Sevlie, C. (1993) Adventitious change in homosexual behavior during treatment of social phobia with phenelzine. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. 54, 1:39-40.

?We conclude that social phobia may be a hidden contributing factor in some instances of homosexual behavior.? (p. 40)
Harry, J. (1989) Parental physical abuse and sexual orientation in males. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 18, 3:251-261.
?These data suggest that some history of childhood femininity is almost always a precursor of adolescent homosexual behavior.? (p. 259)

Herrell, R., et al. (1999, October). Sexual Orientation and Suicidality: a Co-Twin Control Study in Adult Men. Archives of General Psychiatry. 56 (10): 867-874.
This study of male twins who were Vietnam veterans found that male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely to experience suicidal thoughts and behaviors than were their heterosexual twins.

Hockenberry, S., Billingham, R. (1987) Sexual orientation and boyhood gender conformity: Development of the boyhood gender conformity scales (BGCS) Archives of Sexual Behavior. 16, 6:475-492.
??the absence of masculine behaviors and traits appeared to be a more powerful predictor of later homosexual orientation than the traditionally feminine or cross-sexed traits and behaviors.? (p. 475)

Horgan, J., (1995) Gay genes, revisited: Doubts arise over research on the biology of homosexuality. Scientific American. Nov.: 28. Hubbard, Ruth, Wald, Elijah (1993). Exploring the Gene Myth 6.
“The myth of the all-powerful gene is based on flawed science that discounts the environmental context in which we and our genes exist.”

“A gene does not determine a phenotype [noticeable trait] by acting alone; a gene cannot act by itself?Each gene simply specifies one of the proteins involved in the process.”
Jefferson, D.J., (1993, August 12). Studying the Biology of Sexual Orientation Has Political Fallout. Wall Street Journal. 1A.

Lisak, D., Luster, L. Educational, occupational, and relationship histories of men who were sexually and/or physically abused as children. J Trauma Stress. 1994 Oct; 7(4): 507-23.
Nearly one in four young men report sexual abuse as a child resulting in significant life difficulties (as compared to non-abused males).

McGuire, T., (1995) Is homosexuality genetic? A critical review and some suggestions. Journal of Homosexuality. 28, 1/2: 115-145.
?Even if we knew absolutely everything about genes and absolutely everything about environment, we still could not predict the final phenotype of any individual." (p. 142)
Nimmons, David. (March 1994). Sex and the Brain, Discover, 64-71.

“It is important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. INAH 3 is less likely to be the sole gay nucleus of the brain than a part of a chain of nuclei engaged in men and women’s sexual behavior?. Since I looked at adult brains, we don’t know if the differences I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later.”

Pollak, M. Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.

Tomeo, M.E., et al. (2001, October). Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 30 (5): 535-541.

942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation that did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation.

Whitehead, Neil, Whitehead, Brian. (1999) My Genes Made Me Do It! A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation, 158-159.
"Neil Whitehead tabulated other twin studies on other topics and those traits’ heritability: lying–43%, anorexia nervosa–44%, fear of the unknown–46%, psychological inpatient care–47%, extroversion–50%, depression–50%, altruism–50%, divorce–52%, racial prejudice, bigotry–70%.

“(Dean) Hamer’s genetic sequences have been calculated to affect about 5% of the homosexual population, so even if he is correct, there must be some other explanation for what causes the vast majority of homosexuality.”

“If a hormonal imbalance was responsible for homosexuality, then perhaps a simple dose of hormones to an adult would cure homosexuality. This is not the case, as has been demonstrated several times.”
Wolf, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life, Spence Publishing Co., Dallas, 1999, p. 70-71.

Homosexually-assaulted males identified themselves as subsequently becoming practicing homosexuals almost 7 times as often as bisexuals and almost 6 times as often as the non-assaulted control group. 58% of adolescents reporting sexual abuse by a man prior to puberty revealed either homosexual or bisexual orientation (control group 90% heterosexual).

Age of molestation was 4-14 years. ?Nearly half of men who have reported a childhood experience with an older man were currently involved in homosexual activity.? A disproportionately high number of male homosexuals were incestuously molested by a homosexual parent. Conclusion was that the experience led the boy to perceive himself as homosexual based on his having been found sexually attractive by an older man.

Social Factors

Bem, Daryl J. (1986) Exotic Becomes Erotic: A Developmental Theory of Sexual Orientation, 103 Psychol. Rev. 320.
Daryl Bem’s “Exotic Becomes Erotic” theory states that “what is exotic to children becomes erotic to them as adolescents.” For example, “boys who play with girls mostly instead of other boys, and who tend to like the way girls play, become familiar and comfortable with femininity. Male behavior and males become exotic, and thus erotic later in life.”

Burtoft, L. (1994). Behind the Headlines: Setting the Record Straight ? What Research Really Says About the Social Consequences of Homosexuality. Colorado Springs, CO: Focus on the Family.

Fisher, S., Greenberg, R. (1996) Freud Scientifically Reappraisal. NY: Wiley & Sons.
?Fisher analyzed the 58 studies and reported that a large majority supported the notion that homosexual sons perceive their fathers as negative, distant, unfriendly figures.? ?There is not a single even moderately well controlled study that we have been able to locate in which male homosexuals refer to father positively or affectionately.? (p. 136)

Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.

?the second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)

Friedman, Richard, Downey, Jennifer. (1993) Neurobiology and Sexual Orientation: Current Relationships, 5. J. Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences 131, 139.

“Some typical childhood factors related to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; parent, sibling, peer relationships; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved, unapproving; perception of parental perfection required; perception of mother as being too close, too involved; premature introduction to sexuality (such as child abuse or incest); gender confusion; defensive detachment, reparative drive, same-sex ambivalence; unmet affection needs; diminished/distorted masculinity, femininity.”

“?homosexual men are more likely to become sexually active at much younger ages than heterosexual men. The average age of homosexual males at their first sexual encounter was 12.7, versus 15.7 for heterosexual males.”

“This evidence may suggest that abuse and early sexual experiences can contribute to homosexuality, perhaps because of familiarity with sexual acts, and in some cases because of an initial sexual experience with someone of the same gender.”
Newman, L. (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.

?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J. Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.

Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual.

After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.

Phillips, G., Over, R. (1992) Adult sexual orientation in relation to memories of childhood gender conforming and gender nonconforming behaviors. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 21, 6: 543-558.

?The 16-item discriminate-function ? yielded correct classification of 94.4% of heterosexual men and 91.8% of the homosexual men. These results indicate that heterosexual and homosexual men can be classified with equivalent accuracy on the basis of recalling having had or not having had gender conforming (masculine) experiences in childhood.? (p. 550)
Stephan, W., (1973) Parental relationships and early social experiences of activist male homosexuals and male heterosexuals. Journal of Abnormal Psychology. 82, 3: 506-513.

??homosexuals reported experiencing their first orgasm at a younger age than the heterosexuals.? 24% of homosexuals’ first orgasms occurred during homosexual contacts versus 2% of heterosexuals. (p.511)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford.

"?we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic?

All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity.? (p. 282)"

When you’re done with this pile I have ten times this much waiting for you.

[ZEB]

[quote]forlife wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You sit there and spout off but have yet to respond as to why the homosexual health stats look so bleak.

1. You continue to ignore individual differences in the gay community. Being gay is not inherently “unhealthy”.[/quote]

I am flashing back to um…page 20 something. You said that and I said: "Anyone can be gay it’s not at all dangerous. However as soon as they act on their impusle it becomes dangerous.

Get it?

[quote]
Just because some people practice unsafe sex doesn’t mean all people do. One-third of gays don’t even practice anal sex![/quote]

Wow…well goody for them. What about the homosexual men who comprise a full 64% of the HIV list? Oops…I guess they might have put it where it does not belong.

2. You love to refer to anal sex as an exclusively gay act, while ignoring that 40% of heterosexual men also practice anal sex (according to the CDC). You also ignore that the large majority of new HIV cases outside of the US are heterosexuals. If you want to help people, focus on the group that by sheer numbers you would be most likely to help.

40% huh? Okay…then why is it that the HIV list is made up of 64% gay men?

I guess switching partners is not all that healthy either huh?

3. Your statistics fail to differentiate between homosexuals that take common sense precautions in their sexual practices from those that do not. Sexual diseases can be greatly reduced simply by using common sense (like using a condom).

And if I make a list of all the problems that alcoholics face you would be there to single out the few who don’t have any?

It’s dangerous bro live with it. (Oh I forgot you are…YIKES>)

4. Every major medical and mental health organization in the world has said that gays should NOT try to change their orientation. Obviously, if being gay were as dangerous as you like to hyperventilate about, they wouldn’t make such a recommendation.

That is one of your “twisting lies.” Yea, that’s a good name for it.

How come all of your major health orgs are not sating that it’s safe to be gay?

How come they are not touting the longevity and health benefits of being gay?

Gee you think it might be because it’s a dangerous practice?..DUH

(Knocks on forlifes head…“hello anybody home”?)

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You said that and I said: "Anyone can be gay it’s not at all dangerous. However as soon as they act on their impusle it becomes dangerous.[/quote]

You’re overgeneralizing again, by assuming that all gays practice unsafe anal sex.

Wow…well goody for them. What about the homosexual men who comprise a full 64% of the HIV list? Oops…I guess they might have put it where it does not belong.

So tell gays to practice safe sex instead of condemning the entire sexual orienation. A lot of heterosexuals practice unsafe sex too.

40% huh? Okay…then why is it that the HIV list is made up of 64% gay men?

Maybe a lot of gays in the US don’t use condoms. Apparently, a lot of heterosexuals outside the US don’t use condoms either, since they comprise the large majority of new HIV cases.

And if I make a list of all the problems that alcoholics face you would be there to single out the few who don’t have any?

No, I would tell people to drink alcohol responsibly, just as I would tell them to practice sex responsibly.

How come they are not touting the longevity and health benefits of being gay?

They are saying that it is less healthy to try changing one’s orientation than to embrace it.

Gee you think it might be because it’s a dangerous practice?..DUH

Homosexuality is not a “dangerous practice”. Unprotected anal sex is a “dangerous practice”. Not all gays (and not all heteroexuals) have unprotected anal sex.

[forlife]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Of course they are “discriminated against!” When it comes to “family” and things of that nature.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that “family” and things of that nature aren’t important?